US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

[AE Bravo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...taken-for-isi/

US forces mistook them as IS fighters and droned them all. Tired of all these terrorists lately.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You're playing a little rough with the specifics of the very article you cite.

Drones were not involved. Drones, by the way, are less likely to kill civilians by mistake because the stealth/loiter time gives them more time to assess targets. Mistakes still occur, of course, but the incidence is lower than for a pilot flying rapidly in a combat zone and concerned for her/his own safety. According to the article you cite, it was a aircraft attack and not a drone attack.

Saddening to see the wrong people harmed.

[Strike For The South]

Many Isil fighters are still holed up in the city, and are preventing thousands of civilians from leaving, effectively using them as human shields.

Reminds me of Hamas.

I also enjoy the false equivalency people try to create by starting these threads. So deep bro, making me think real hard. The United States does not go out of its way to kill civilians, nor do they use human shields. When something like that does happen, and over the course of American operations, it certainly has, The perpetrators are dealt with using a very unsympathetic military justice system. Of course, this is opposed to the literal dogs they were trying to bomb who deserve nothing more than to be scourged from Earth.

Combat is nasty. People die. More often than not, the people who die have no stake in the outcome of the fight. The American media has done a fairly good job of whitewashing this fact. Seeing a smart bomb hit a target is so sterile, almost medical. The lead up to the war in Iraq talked a lot about bringing democracy but very little about a sectarian conflict whose cost would mostly fall on the shoulders of those with no voice.

Of course bringing democracy to these regions usually devolves into some sort of theocracy where the young men, with no job or marriage prospects are thrown into the meat grinder. It was easier dealing with the autocrats.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...taken-for-isi/

US forces mistook them as IS fighters and droned them all. Tired of all these terrorists lately.

Your article says "nearly 60", not "85".

Aside from that, there's a huge difference between the legendary stupidity of the USAF and ISIL's terrorists activities.

I'm going to take the same line as I did when that MSF hospital was hit - it'll be the pilot/aircrew that screwed this up. I was right last time (proved after a lengthy investigation) and I expect I'll be right this time. Such tragedies are usually avoidable, the result of badly thought out Rules of Engagement or failure to check intelligence before pulling the trigger.

These sorts of things will keep happening until there's a complete rethink by the US in how they use heavy weapons. Bombing people whoa re running away is roughly the same as shooting people in the back. In war it's necessary sometimes if you think they're liable to turn around and counter-attack but in the case of ISIL our Air-Dominance makes such considerations moot.

[Hooahguy]

Didnt you and I have a huge argument last time about how British pilots are just as stupid?

[AE Bravo]

I also enjoy the false equivalency

I meant IS when I said terrorists. Just wanted to point out the typical incompetence you can expect from US forces in the middle east, not that they're just as much murderers as IS. The best thing for them to have done is leave it to the Syrian armed forces, because as of now it seems that they're dishing out just as much unintentional collateral damage.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Didnt you and I have a huge argument last time about how British pilots are just as stupid?

We did, then the report came out and showed the USAF had achieved a new level of Top-Down fail (and irrc no one was punished).

Reams and reams have also been written on the general breakdown of basic UK doctrine in Iraq and Afganistan due to being chronically under-manned.

[Hooahguy]

You have such a hard on for hating on US forces (despite the fact that British forces have just the same level of "fail" that you accuse US forces with) that you seem to have forgotten that people were punished for the Kunduz bombing. But hey, you are entitled to your own opinion.

[spmetla]

I meant IS when I said terrorists. Just wanted to point out the typical incompetence you can expect from US forces in the middle east, not that they're just as much murderers as IS. The best thing for them to have done is leave it to the Syrian armed forces, because as of now it seems that they're dishing out just as much unintentional collateral damage.

Though this is a lot of lives in this one incident it is no where near as close to the damage done to Syrian civilians done by the Syrian army and air force. Bear in mind that same air power has protected kurds fighting IS, helped the Iraqis retake some of their cities and helped keep the expansion and free rein of IS in check, at least so much as can be without sending divisions of troops to kick them out.

As for just as much murderers, the US doesn't do this intentionally or on the same scale as IS. We don't enslave women and children and them sell them as sex toys. We don't execute everyone who disagrees with us. We are as flawed as any military and when fighting dudes driving around in pick up trucks and limited military equipment taken from the Iraqis and Syrians it is very hard to tell what is a military target. Seeing as the coalition has done 450 airstrikes around the city since May they seem to have been mostly successful in avoiding civilian 'collateral.'

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You have such a hard on for hating on US forces (despite the fact that British forces have just the same level of "fail" that you accuse US forces with) that you seem to have forgotten that people were punished for the Kunduz bombing. But hey, you are entitled to your own opinion.

I don't hate US forces, I just think it's unhealthy to be in the same Theatre with them if you aren't waring Stars and Stripes.

It's a prejudice I inherited from the British Soldiers I grew up around.

[Fragony]

Horrible, rip civilians

[Papewaio]

You have such a hard on for hating on US forces (despite the fact that British forces have just the same level of "fail" that you accuse US forces with) that you seem to have forgotten that people were punished for the Kunduz bombing. But hey, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Well USA is just a rebranded Britian 2.0 from many outsiders perspective. Anglosphere and all.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't hate US forces, I just think it's unhealthy to be in the same Theatre with them if you aren't waring Stars and Stripes.

It's a prejudice I inherited from the British Soldiers I grew up around.

And we like you lot (and the Oz crowd) and think of you as the trustworthy allies....

Makes you wonder what'd happen if we had to fight side by side with the French.

[Pannonian]

I don't hate US forces, I just think it's unhealthy to be in the same Theatre with them if you aren't waring Stars and Stripes.

It's a prejudice I inherited from the British Soldiers I grew up around.

It's probably the regimental mentality at work. Your regiment, your country, your people, against the rest of the world. In reality the US military, being far bigger than ours, probably gets more opportunities to make more and bigger eff ups simply due to scale. We were pretty horrendous in the early days of mass warfare in WWI.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I meant IS when I said terrorists. Just wanted to point out the typical incompetence you can expect from US forces in the middle east, not that they're just as much murderers as IS. The best thing for them to have done is leave it to the Syrian armed forces, because as of now it seems that they're dishing out just as much unintentional collateral damage.

An inevitable consequence deriving from asymmetric conflict. You saw what happened the last time a conventional military went toe-to-toe with NATO in 1991. Even in 2003 for the reprise Iraq deployed Fedayeen from day one, limiting the "conventional" character of the conflict.

Any opponent of NATO that chooses a conventional warfare approach loses hard and fast. Since they are NOT, on average, stupid, they tend to choose a non-conventional strategy when fighting NATO. Guerrilla (pronounced as /gwair - EE - yuh/ btw, not like the animal as most yanks do) tactics and terrorism are the tools of choice for asymmetric warfare. So, by design, our opponents are more or less always mixed into a larger mass of civilians, un-uniformed, and often posing as (or NOT posing as but actually being) civilians except when actively involved in an operation.

Such conflicts are necessarily more messy and a greater percentage of civilians die in the crossfire. This, for the faction having chosen asymmetric tactics, is actually a plus as there is propaganda/public relations value in dead civilians who lost their lives at the action of the conventional (NATO) power.

[Pannonian]

An inevitable consequence deriving from asymmetric conflict. You saw what happened the last time a conventional military went toe-to-toe with NATO in 1991. Even in 2003 for the reprise Iraq deployed Fedayeen from day one, limiting the "conventional" character of the conflict.

Any opponent of NATO that chooses a conventional warfare approach loses hard and fast. Since they are NOT, on average, stupid, they tend to choose a non-conventional strategy when fighting NATO. Guerrilla (pronounced as /gwair - EE - yuh/ btw, not like the animal as most yanks do) tactics and terrorism are the tools of choice for asymmetric warfare. So, by design, our opponents are more or less always mixed into a larger mass of civilians, un-uniformed, and often posing as (or NOT posing as but actually being) civilians except when actively involved in an operation.

Such conflicts are necessarily more messy and a greater percentage of civilians die in the crossfire. This, for the faction having chosen asymmetric tactics, is actually a plus as there is propaganda/public relations value in dead civilians who lost their lives at the action of the conventional (NATO) power.

To limit civilian casualties, we should leave the hellhole that is the middle east to the s who live there, trading only for resources we need, and limit or stop immigration from these countries. More people would die, but they'd die from the actions of their own, and would be nothing to do with us. Since people like Showtime are going to hate us anyway, we might as well leave them to their own devices. They'd still hate us, but it would be cheaper. And IIRC, Showtime comes from the middle east, but is currently living in the west, possibly the US.

[AE Bravo]

Though this is a lot of lives in this one incident it is no where near as close to the damage done to Syrian civilians done by the Syrian army and air force. Bear in mind that same air power has protected kurds fighting IS, helped the Iraqis retake some of their cities and helped keep the expansion and free rein of IS in check, at least so much as can be without sending divisions of troops to kick them out.

How much damage has the SAF done to civilians exactly? Western-backed opposition groups have done more damage than Assad. Recently the democratic forces who are funded by the UK too in northern Aleppo beheaded an 11 year old Palestinian boy for allegedly being a Syrian government spy. West funds brigades who do IS style killings, it’s no mystery.

[Pannonian]

How much damage has the SAF done to civilians exactly? Western-backed opposition groups have done more damage than Assad. Recently the democratic forces who are funded by the UK too in northern Aleppo beheaded an 11 year old Palestinian boy for allegedly being a Syrian government spy. West funds brigades who do IS style killings, it’s no mystery.

Thus proving my point. People like him hate us anyway, so we might as well save our money and keep out of that dump. Stop all movement between the west and the middle east. Nothing good comes out of the latter.

[AE Bravo]

I'm nothing like you. I don't hate...

we should leave the hellhole that is the middle east to the s who live there

You don't see this coming out of my mouth. Too much contempt from you, I'd put you on ignore if I wasn't interested in reading the UK threads around here.

[Hooahguy]

So are you claiming that Assad's forces have avoided civilian casualties?

[Greyblades]

Guerrilla (pronounced as /gwair - EE - yuh/ btw

No it's pronounced as /ger -ril - la/, lieutenant is pronounced as /Left - ten - ant/, Myanmar is pronounced as /Bur - ma/ and French is prounounced as /cheeze - eat - ing - sur - ren - der - mon - kee/.

We invented the language we get to say how it's words are pronounced

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And we like you lot (and the Oz crowd) and think of you as the trustworthy allies....

Makes you wonder what'd happen if we had to fight side by side with the French.

We're leery of you because of WWI, then WII, then Korea, then the Falklands.

~Sorry, you're like our number three lady.

It's probably the regimental mentality at work. Your regiment, your country, your people, against the rest of the world. In reality the US military, being far bigger than ours, probably gets more opportunities to make more and bigger eff ups simply due to scale. We were pretty horrendous in the early days of mass warfare in WWI.

Probably - but the Americans have historically had a problem with recognising other forces' vehicles. During the Iraq War I was told by serving soldiers that Americans were not routinely trained to recognise the silhouette of friendly NATO hardware.

Then there's the Old Story about Patton threatening to turn his army around and assault the USAAF behind him if they didn't stop bombing his men.

[AE Bravo]

Basically what I'm getting from SFTS and Seamus is that the people they're defending dropped a chandelier on a dancefloor full of people at a party they werent invited to. Is the presence itself of these forces and the lackluster coordination with the sovereign entity to bring justice to these bands not unconventional? And how w does that answer my question about why the US isnt better off letting SAR do their jobs?

So are you claiming that Assad's forces have avoided civilian casualties?

No. Though its hard to believe that countless gangs with nato funds have done less damage than a figure like Assad, who transformed himself to some sort of benign figure to cling to whatever he has left. Its not working at all because of neoliberal idealists of course.

[Hooahguy]

Why is that hard to believe? The Syrian army was quite considerable in strength, especially when you factor in air power, which the rebels had almost none. And for what its worth, the group Physicians forHuman Rights claims that the vast majority of attacks on doctors and hospitals were by the regime (over 90%) but who knows really. I havent been able to find a hard breakdown of who is killing who so I suppose you are going to believe one thing and Ill believe another. Personally, I think both sides are complicit in the deaths of civilians in this conflict. I just happen to think that the regime's use of air power tips the balance in his favor. Also the whole gas attack thing doesnt paint a pretty picture either.

[Papewaio]

We invented the language we get to say how it's words are pronounced

Except probably 80% of the English language is loan words from other languages. That's why you have beef and cattle, pork & pigs, houses and bungalows...

[Pannonian]

Why is that hard to believe? The Syrian army was quite considerable in strength, especially when you factor in air power, which the rebels had almost none. And for what its worth, the group Physicians forHuman Rights claims that the vast majority of attacks on doctors and hospitals were by the regime (over 90%) but who knows really. I havent been able to find a hard breakdown of who is killing who so I suppose you are going to believe one thing and Ill believe another. Personally, I think both sides are complicit in the deaths of civilians in this conflict. I just happen to think that the regime's use of air power tips the balance in his favor. Also the whole gas attack thing doesnt paint a pretty picture either.

You're missing the most important bit.

Basically what I'm getting from SFTS and Seamus is that the people they're defending dropped a chandelier on a dancefloor full of people at a party they werent invited to. Is the presence itself of these forces and the lackluster coordination with the sovereign entity to bring justice to these bands not unconventional? And how w does that answer my question about why the US isnt better off letting SAR do their jobs?

No. Though its hard to believe that countless gangs with nato funds have done less damage than a figure like Assad, who transformed himself to some sort of benign figure to cling to whatever he has left. Its not working at all because of neoliberal idealists of course.

We weren't invited to the party. So whatever happens at the party, we shouldn't be there in the first place. If we weren't there, then the party floor dancers can brawl as much as they like. It would result in way more casualties. But the key point isn't the casualties. The key point is our presence at a party we weren't invited to.

[Papewaio]

We weren't invited to the party. So whatever happens at the party, we shouldn't be there in the first place. If we weren't there, then the party floor dancers can brawl as much as they like. It would result in way more casualties. But the key point isn't the casualties. The key point is our presence at a party we weren't invited to.

Well this party had the equivalent of a public Facebook invite to it when the belligerents started bombing people outside the region.

If you don't want to invite the cops best to keep a low profile and not go waking them up in the dead of night.

[AE Bravo]

Why is that hard to believe? The Syrian army was quite considerable in strength, especially when you factor in air power, which the rebels had almost none. And for what its worth, the group Physicians forHuman Rights claims that the vast majority of attacks on doctors and hospitals were by the regime (over 90%) but who knows really. I havent been able to find a hard breakdown of who is killing who so I suppose you are going to believe one thing and Ill believe another. Personally, I think both sides are complicit in the deaths of civilians in this conflict. I just happen to think that the regime's use of air power tips the balance in his favor. Also the whole gas attack thing doesnt paint a pretty picture either.

If there was political or security cooperation with that government more of this information would have been known to us. especially with these various rebel groups having a history of spreading misinformation like the many offsprings of the Muslim Brotherhood. I don't doubt all slides exaggerate reports. One reason it’s hard to believe is if you look at life in Damascus and the more demanding lifestyle in rebel-occupied territories. Many sources claim the gas attack was carried out by a dissident, and is possible considering it’s the dumbest thing the government could have done to undermine its legitimacy.

We weren't invited to the party. So whatever happens at the party, we shouldn't be there in the first place. If we weren't there, then the party floor dancers can brawl as much as they like. It would result in way more casualties. But the key point isn't the casualties. The key point is our presence at a party we weren't invited to.

There would not have been more casualties. You'd know that if you started talking to people and learn something instead of talking at them.

[Greyblades]

Except probably 80% of the English language is loan words from other languages. That's why you have beef and cattle, pork & pigs, houses and bungalows...

And? Our language is the best because it picks up the best of the other language and leaves behind the dregs that make them inferior, thus we get to choose to we call the people between france and poland "Germans", "Deutsche" or "those Nazi twats".

[Pannonian]

And? Our language is the best because it picks up the best of the other language and leaves behind the dregs that make them inferior, thus we get to choose to we call the people between france and poland "Germans", "Deutsche" or "those Nazi twats".

The genesis of the English language allows us to have such descriptive place names as Torpenhow Hill.

From tor meaning hill, pen meaning hill, how meaning hill, and hill meaning hill.