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Thread: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nomy-collapses

    If only the world bank wasn't run by dirty capitalists. Sad, the people of Venezuela are suffering Becuase of the legacy of a tyrant. A tyrant propped up by idealists in the west who don't have to live in his hellhole.

    funny the strongest economy in Latin America is Chile.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nomy-collapses

    If only the world bank wasn't run by dirty capitalists. Sad, the people of Venezuela are suffering Becuase of the legacy of a tyrant. A tyrant propped up by idealists in the west who don't have to live in his hellhole.

    funny the strongest economy in Latin America is Chile.
    Chile?
    What parties have made up the government since that tyrant propped up by idealists in the west who didn't have to live in his fascist police state left power?
    Their current president is once again a socialist isn't she?

  3. #3
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    In case he doesn't want to google, Christian Democrats and Social Democrats. And once the ban was lifted, Socialists. In fact the parliamentary coalition that's in power now has 4 different brands of leftist parties, and Communists.


    Thing is the regime in Venezuela is very much in the mold of Castro. IE the populist rebel strong man of socialism. Who runs a highly centralized government. And yes it was kind of a relic of a bygone age when Chavez set it up 10 years ago.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    In case he doesn't want to google, Christian Democrats and Social Democrats. And once the ban was lifted, Socialists. In fact the parliamentary coalition that's in power now has 4 different brands of leftist parties, and Communists.


    Thing is the regime in Venezuela is very much in the mold of Castro. IE the populist rebel strong man of socialism. Who runs a highly centralized government. And yes it was kind of a relic of a bygone age when Chavez set it up 10 years ago.
    Ah, Chavez and Castro, the heroes of Britain's own Jeremy Corbyn, who appeals to the UK's own brand of leftists who want a populist rebel strong man. Who also runs a highly centralised shadow government. I bet Chavez wishes he were as rich as Chavez's daughter though. The sworn enemy of big business idolises a man whose embezzlement has left his daughter the richest person in the country. 4.2bn USD.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    SFTS how many nations that are US allies are social democracies vs corporate republics?
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Yes, as it never happened before:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo
    400 shot by the National Guard
    Failure of Capitalism. Reason why Socialist won elections. From 1999, year when Chavez was elected, 19 elections, each time validated by International bodies. That is dictatorship for you...
    And Bangladesh, capitalist country without any workers's right, is a so successful developed country...
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Yes, as it never happened before:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo
    400 shot by the National Guard
    Failure of Capitalism. Reason why Socialist won elections. From 1999, year when Chavez was elected, 19 elections, each time validated by International bodies. That is dictatorship for you...
    And Bangladesh, capitalist country without any workers's right, is a so successful developed country...
    I believe in the principles of socialism, but it works best at a lower level. At national level, leftism works better with reforms akin to the Liberal reforms of the early 20th century, which sought to regulate and alleviate the more unpleasant effects of uncontrolled capitalism.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I believe in the principles of socialism, but it works best at a lower level. At national level, leftism works better with reforms akin to the Liberal reforms of the early 20th century, which sought to regulate and alleviate the more unpleasant effects of uncontrolled capitalism.
    I take the stance that governmental decisions should be resolved at the lowest possible level. While I don't like most of the socialist approaches, I am very much in favor of communities making decisions for themselves where possible, with a 'higher' level of government superseding only so as to stand as arbiter for the boundaries of each community (on a 'my rights stop at your nose" basis mostly) OR where the more local community is demonstrably inappropriate for making decisions in that context (the Seminole County Florida Board of Commissioners and County Manager would not be the right level for conducting foreign policy for the USA). I acknowledge that some measure of communalism/socialism WILL factor into decisions at the community level.

    I also concur that some degree of regulation is required for capitalism to function effectively. Though Smith's 'invisible hand' should still be the prime mover, I do acknowledge that the <1% of truly unethical bastards can do horrific economic damage to others (especially in the elctronic era) absent some form of regulation. While I prefer that regulation be kept to the absolute minimum to discourage and police fraud and to mandate certain minimums for occupational and public safety, some degree of regulation is a must.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I take the stance that governmental decisions should be resolved at the lowest possible level. While I don't like most of the socialist approaches, I am very much in favor of communities making decisions for themselves where possible, with a 'higher' level of government superseding only so as to stand as arbiter for the boundaries of each community (on a 'my rights stop at your nose" basis mostly) OR where the more local community is demonstrably inappropriate for making decisions in that context (the Seminole County Florida Board of Commissioners and County Manager would not be the right level for conducting foreign policy for the USA). I acknowledge that some measure of communalism/socialism WILL factor into decisions at the community level.

    I also concur that some degree of regulation is required for capitalism to function effectively. Though Smith's 'invisible hand' should still be the prime mover, I do acknowledge that the <1% of truly unethical bastards can do horrific economic damage to others (especially in the elctronic era) absent some form of regulation. While I prefer that regulation be kept to the absolute minimum to discourage and police fraud and to mandate certain minimums for occupational and public safety, some degree of regulation is a must.
    But isn't that more or less how we ended up where we are now?
    I'd assume most societies started out with relatively simple laws but due to the world becoming more complex in general and people using and abusing loopholes left and right, the laws had to become more complex as well. Not that I studied the history of law, it just seems like a natural development to me. Simplifying certain things would likely create a lot of loopholes and require more complexity again to fix them. Of course on the other hand, the complexity can at some point be used again to create loopholes in the first place...

    As for decisions at a lower level, you get the problem of competition, in the extreme example, a corporation such as Monsanto could starve a community if it refuses to relax certain environmental protection standards and so on. Preventing such shenanigans would then again require a sufficiently powerful government (i.e. one that controls a market large enough that it would hurt a corporation to ignore the market) to forbid such shenanigans, which also makes legislation more complex and so on.

    In the end I would argue that current laws are still too lax or at least not sufficiently enforced given that there are several corporations that only keep a few small competitors around so they can claim not to have a monopoly while they do in fact have a quasi-monopoly. My favourite example: Intel. The monopoly is already reflected in pricing and other policies, they can pretty much shape the market to their liking because AMD could not really compete in recent years. And when AMD could, they bribed retailers, which was proven in Germany, to not sell their products and thus denied AMD income that might have helped AMD to stay on top of their game. The punishment they received for that was relatively laughable. Which leads me to believe that currently the government is not controlling businesses in a sufficient way, prices that are 20-30% above what they would be on a truly competitive market are not in the interest of the customer and should not be in the interest of the government because they effectively increase wealth inequality, hinder progress, etc.

    So I guess in some ways I agree with you that laxer rules would be desirable, I would argue however that the complexity of the modern world and human greed make more complex laws on higher levels of government a natural development.


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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Ride the tiger.

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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    I guess it's inevitable that "the invisible hand" should appear in a discussion of regulation.
    The beauty of it is, it is without content, Adam Smith appeals to it once in the entire Wealth of Nations: it is a black box which pundits may fill with whatever content they most desire.
    Why don't Smith's well defined ideas get the same shout out?
    Dissolution of monopolies, oligopolies, professional associations, marketing boards etc.
    What exactly are the consequences of Smith's insistence that our "fellow feeling" is what legitimates each seeking their own best result?
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    You people know we have computers now, right? The invisible hand died right around the time people found out they could make millions out of a 10ms difference between competing servers.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    You people know we have computers now, right? The invisible hand died right around the time people found out they could make millions out of a 10ms difference between competing servers.
    That is correct, some crazy conspiracy theorists even say we use computers to communicate here, but I think they're wrong.

    Anyway, I think that is only part of the issue.
    A working market also requires that both sides have the required knowledge to make an informed decision about a trade. That one kinda goes down the gutter the moment I read that there is triordium phenobytolphtalamagnate in the one butter and primordial quantophisicine-10 in the other. And that's not just because I just made them both up, but because products have also become so complex that a lot of people can't really make an informed decision about what to buy. Maybe some can do so in one field or for one product group, but then they probably can't do so in another unless they spend their entire lives researching the benefits and downsides of all the products they may want to buy. This gives the suppliers an information advantage that allows them to manipulate the market/buyers.

    (Expert) Reviews can and do help a little bit in some areas but I don't think they reduce the complexity enough.
    If you want an example, think of bio/organic food, it started from the fear of consumers that they don't know what is in their food anymore and that it may be harmful. Plus some added environmental concerns. By now a lot of it has been turned more or less into a farce because the suppliers can easily confuse buyers with that buzzword and there is too little regulation or review to ensure that the product meets the expectations people have when they see the buzzword.

    Organic cotton may be another such thing, even if often well-intentioned, I'd think Hemp is still way better than any kind of cotton. It needs less water, no or very little use of chemicals to allow it to grow and is even superior in terms of durability and comfort. With the right hemp I think you'd also have to smoke several trousers for a buzz, so the whole drug issue should be unproblematic. Somehow we keep using cotton though and the Ural lake keeps disappearing.


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  15. #15
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    But isn't that more or less how we ended up where we are now?
    I'd assume most societies started out with relatively simple laws but due to the world becoming more complex in general and people using and abusing loopholes left and right, the laws had to become more complex as well. Not that I studied the history of law, it just seems like a natural development to me. Simplifying certain things would likely create a lot of loopholes and require more complexity again to fix them. Of course on the other hand, the complexity can at some point be used again to create loopholes in the first place...

    As for decisions at a lower level, you get the problem of competition, in the extreme example, a corporation such as Monsanto could starve a community if it refuses to relax certain environmental protection standards and so on. Preventing such shenanigans would then again require a sufficiently powerful government (i.e. one that controls a market large enough that it would hurt a corporation to ignore the market) to forbid such shenanigans, which also makes legislation more complex and so on.

    In the end I would argue that current laws are still too lax or at least not sufficiently enforced given that there are several corporations that only keep a few small competitors around so they can claim not to have a monopoly while they do in fact have a quasi-monopoly. My favourite example: Intel. The monopoly is already reflected in pricing and other policies, they can pretty much shape the market to their liking because AMD could not really compete in recent years. And when AMD could, they bribed retailers, which was proven in Germany, to not sell their products and thus denied AMD income that might have helped AMD to stay on top of their game. The punishment they received for that was relatively laughable. Which leads me to believe that currently the government is not controlling businesses in a sufficient way, prices that are 20-30% above what they would be on a truly competitive market are not in the interest of the customer and should not be in the interest of the government because they effectively increase wealth inequality, hinder progress, etc.

    So I guess in some ways I agree with you that laxer rules would be desirable, I would argue however that the complexity of the modern world and human greed make more complex laws on higher levels of government a natural development.
    I would argue that simpler laws would have fewer loopholes -- which are the misshappen children of complex legislation. We contributed mightily to the winning of the second world war with a tax code that started at about 500 pages in '39 and finished at 8200 in '45 despite the complexities of a global conflict. We now have more than 75,000 pages of tax code. Has that order of magnitude difference really helped anything?

    Yes complexity grows, but unless it is pruned back regularly it grows in counterproductive ways. Again, some regulation is a must. Left without any there are corporations that will poison the environment for generations to turn a higher quarterly profit. I just want the minimum needed to stop fraud and encourage general health.

    Your Monsanto example IS in line with what I am saying. There needs to be a government that says: "this is too far, you are defrauding/harming and it must stop."
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I would argue that simpler laws would have fewer loopholes -- which are the misshappen children of complex legislation. We contributed mightily to the winning of the second world war with a tax code that started at about 500 pages in '39 and finished at 8200 in '45 despite the complexities of a global conflict. We now have more than 75,000 pages of tax code. Has that order of magnitude difference really helped anything?

    Yes complexity grows, but unless it is pruned back regularly it grows in counterproductive ways. Again, some regulation is a must. Left without any there are corporations that will poison the environment for generations to turn a higher quarterly profit. I just want the minimum needed to stop fraud and encourage general health.

    Your Monsanto example IS in line with what I am saying. There needs to be a government that says: "this is too far, you are defrauding/harming and it must stop."
    I agree with this 100%.

    If the complexity is indeed what introduces the loopholes, and I can absolutely see how that can be the case, then a simplification is obviously preferable.


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Somehow we keep using cotton though and the Ural lake keeps disappearing.
    Perhaps it has disappeared since I never heard of it. Or do you mean the Aral Sea?
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  18. #18
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Perhaps it has disappeared since I never heard of it. Or do you mean the Aral Sea?
    He means the Urinal Lake in the King's Arms district, whose shores grow and ebb with the coming and going of the Great Cleaner.

  19. #19
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Perhaps it has disappeared since I never heard of it. Or do you mean the Aral Sea?
    Yes, that one.


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  20. #20
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism fails again. Goalposts being moved as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    He means the Urinal Lake in the King's Arms district, whose shores grow and ebb with the coming and going of the Great Cleaner.
    Naahh. The one he mentions is disappearing on its own accord. Can the King's Arms boast of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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