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Thread: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    I first saw this Silver Bowl with seated ruler and attendants, from Iran or Afghanistan (Ghaznavid?), 11th century, State Hermitage Museum inv. S-499, St. Petersburg in a research paper, then found it on the museum's digital site. It wasn't referred to in the paper. Does anyone known anything about this bowl? The lions seem to have Chinese influence.
    Having a throne supported by animals is typical of Sassanid enthronement scenes. The figures wear right-over-left coats with lapels.
    Similar lapels are found on a Cup with horseman, Khwarezm c.7th-8th Century, State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg, a Bowl with figures in coat with lapels and hanging sleeves or shawl, 10th Century, Nishapur, Eastern Iran and on Kizil cave donor figures, in coats with lapels, Tarim Basin.
    Does anyone know more about the attendants' hats?

    Mirror site:
    Silver Bowl with seated ruler and attendants, from Iran or Afghanistan (Ghaznavid?), 11th century, State Hermitage Museum inv. S-499, St. Petersburg

    Druzhina
    11th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina; 06-11-2018 at 05:56.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    Last edited by druzhina; 06-06-2017 at 07:12.

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  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    Iran or Afghistan are you sure about that? It looks like a tribute, that is actually a tribute. These lions are pretty common in Mongol and Chinese art, but the assumed date is odd. There actually is a pass from China to Afghanistan, it's really narrow but current Afghanistan and current China actually are connected. I didn't know that but my former cleaner is from Afganistan and she lived close to that pass.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-29-2016 at 06:48.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Iran or Afghistan are you sure about that? It looks like a tribute, that is actually a tribute. These lions are pretty common in Mongol and Chinese art, but the assumed date is odd. There actually is a pass from China to Afghanistan, it's really narrow but current Afghanistan and current China actually are connected. I didn't know that but my former cleaner is from Afganistan and she lived close to that pass.
    I am only as sure as the Hermitage Museum (so I asked for more info) & a 2nd hand note in Emel Esin, ṬABARĪ'S REPORT ON THE WARFARE WITH THE TÜRGIŠ AND THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHTH CENTURY CENTRAL ASIAN ART.
    Emel Esin doesn't say much about the plate, it is used an example of a Turkish plate for when Tabari reports silver plates captured from the Turks in the 8th century. Emel would have been attracted by a dating of the plate to the 8th-9th century (perhaps by Pugacenkova & Rempel, 1965, who are given as the image source) so any such plate would have done as well.

    Tribute made by whom and given to who? Why do you think the 11th century date is odd? Would you have thought earlier or latter?

    Druzhina
    Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina; 06-06-2017 at 07:12.

  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    If I had to make a very wild guess it kinda fits within the age of mongol expansion, but I am absolutily not knowededable about that, nobody is, so consider anything I is say stupid in advancece. What I find odd is that it seems to be a picture of a tribute, II's really well made with obvious craft. Testing the metal could give some answers but that's kinda hard if it's in the Hermitage. Please take nothing what I said seriously.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-29-2016 at 08:21.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Silver Bowl with seated ruler, from Iran or Afghanistan, 11C

    I have received a couple of replies about the attendants' hats. They do look like some modern Mongol hats, but, a hat with similarities is on a bowl with a poetic recitation, Seljuk, 1187AD, Kashan, Iran. Los Angeles County Museum of Art. Many Seljuk illustrations have people with a nimbus (with the exception of al-Sufi manuscripts)

    Druzhina
    Seljuk Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina; 06-11-2018 at 05:58.

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