Catalonia

[Husar]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1CP0SB

Wouldn't it sway those Catalonians who are still in doubt to swell the independence camp?

Somewhere I read that the secessionists only gained more seats in the Catalan government because the weird electoral system gave them more seats despite not getting a corresponding popular vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...election,_2015

When I take the 135 seats and multiply it with 0.396 for the 39.6% they (JxSi) got of the popular vote, I get 53.46 seats, and yet they somehow have 62 seats. It might be explained due to parties falling below the minimum threshold, but then again that should lead to all parties having more seats than their share of the vote, yet the CUP should have 135 x 0.082 = 11.07 seats and has effectively only 10.

I'm not aware of their policies and coalitions, but it would seem quite weird for a party that is strongly overrepresented in parliament to take a very flawed referendum and make a very important choice based on that, claiming to represent the will of the people. As I said before, a secession would seem even vastly more important than a constitutional change, and should not be declared lightly. A lot of countries make constitutional changes very hard, why not decisions that potentially affect the country even more?

[Gilrandir]

When I take the 135 seats and multiply it with 0.396 for the 39.6% they (JxSi) got of the popular vote, I get 53.46 seats, and yet they somehow have 62 seats. It might be explained due to parties falling below the minimum threshold, but then again that should lead to all parties having more seats than their share of the vote, yet the CUP should have 135 x 0.082 = 11.07 seats and has effectively only 10.

It can be explained by the mixed electoral system. Some candidates are party members but they are elected as individuals in the majority constituencies. At least it is so in Ukraine.

[Husar]

It can be explained by the mixed electoral system. Some candidates are party members but they are elected as individuals in the majority constituencies. At least it is so in Ukraine.

I think it was like that in Germany, but the constitutional court didn't like that and said it makes the second vote useless in many cases. The fix for now seems to be that they just add members to the parliament until the proportional representation as given by the second party vote is fulfilled. And since the CDU apparently got a whole lot of first votes in the last election, out parliament will become very bloated now. Still better than not having the proportional representation though IMO.

[Montmorency]

Spanish government plans to remove Catalonian government, schedule new elections, and in the meantime implement direct rule by Madrid.

Hundreds of thousands march for - well, if not for independence, then at least against Madrid's proposed corrective measures.

[Gilrandir]

Hundreds of thousands march for - well, if not for independence, then at least against Madrid's proposed corrective measures.

And who knows how thin is the line between "against corrective mesures" and "for independence".

[Gilrandir]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...emove-catalan/
An irrevocable step?

[Husar]

*insert facepalm*

Now I actually agree that the Spanish government should have talked to them after they didn't declare independence the other time.
Trying to take over anyway was the escalating step now it seems. As to what will happen, I guess we'll see who has more soft-power or whether it will escalate to violence.

[Beskar]

Catalonia has now declared full independence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

[Seamus Fermanagh]

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Does any one have a link to a translation of their declaration? Media accounts all gloss things over and head straight to the "potential conflict" elements because that is the bent of journalism. Have the Catalans made such a declaration aside from publishing the results of a vote?

[Kadagar_AV]

Many people in Catalonia don't want their EU-share of blacks and arabs.

I understand them.

[Crandar]

Yeah, this is why the nationalists insist that Catalonia will be admitted in the EU even after the independence. They are displeased at the taxes they pay, not the imaginary Islamic threat.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, this is why the nationalists insist that Catalonia will be admitted in the EU even after the independence. They are displeased at the taxes they pay, not the imaginary Islamic threat.

Except that 50% of the taxes they get to keep, which is reasonable when you consider Spain controls the borders, the armed forces etc.

Removal of the Catalan Government after they signed a declaration of Independence was pretty much inevitable, especially after they refused to confirm if they had or hadn't actually done it.

Likewise, the Parliament was going to go after they went Secessionist.

With the majority of the pro-Independence leadership in prison it's likely the nationalists will not get a majority in the election in December, so unless the Catalans resort to armed insurrection (unlikely given they have nice comfortable lives) this will blow over in a few years. It might resurface in a generation, though.

[Gilrandir]

Puigdemont doesn't recognize his dismissal by Madrid. And? How will he insist on keeping his job? Lock himself in the office? I don't believe it is possible by non-violent ways.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Puigdemont doesn't recognize his dismissal by Madrid. And? How will he insist on keeping his job? Lock himself in the office? I don't believe it is possible by non-violent ways.

Since Spain has already used force (though not outright warfare), I suspect you are likely correct.

Declaring your independence, of itself, does not require the extent government to agree to it.

[Gilrandir]

Spanish foreign minister admits Catalonia's autonomy may be widened. Madrid is ready to step back?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Spanish foreign minister admits Catalonia's autonomy may be widened. Madrid is ready to step back?

AFTER taking such a hard line during the 'illegal plebiscite?" That kind of backtracking will only encourage those leaning die-hard to harden their position. Now, if they had done that BEFORE the plebiscite, very quietly, then that would have made for a very different result.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
Puigdemont is already in Belgium and the Catalan parliament accepted its dissolvment. A couple of days after they solemnly promulgated independece! The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
Puigdemont is already in Belgium and the Catalan parliament accepted its dissolvment. A couple of days after they solemnly promulgated independece! The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.

Pomp is easy. But the currency for independency is a steep risk "...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." If you are not willing to risk the loss, don't play the game.

[Gilrandir]

Pomp is easy. But the currency for independency is a steep risk "...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." If you are not willing to risk the loss, don't play the game.

They started the game but evidently are not ready to run the risk of losing.

[John Smith]

20th December La Liga is where the real showdown will begin.

[Sarmatian]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.

Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.

Fair point.

[Gilrandir]

Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.

Then they have no wits. One doesn't have to be Nobel prize winner to figure out how Madrid would have reacted. Did they know it? If yes and still went on with independence and after that backed out they have no guts. If no - they are plain stupid. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon current Catalan leaders.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Then they have no wits. One doesn't have to be Nobel prize winner to figure out how Madrid would have reacted. Did they know it? If yes and still went on with independence and after that backed out they have no guts. If no - they are plain stupid. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon current Catalan leaders.

Have to agree there. Having talked over the issue with Madrid quietly -- and I assume at least a few 'deniable' emissaries did so -- and having thereby learned that there was no groundswell of support for secession, they should have known right then that it was a choice of 'lives, fortune, sacred honor' [call out the militia and fight for freedom as needed] or time to shut up and leave things be [inglorious, but their current lives aren't notably horrific].

I have to agree here that the Catalan leaders did not cover themselves with laurels here.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.

You may be right, but that still makes them bad leaders.

It will be interesting to see if the former Catalan President returns to face the music, having seriously harmed his "country."

[Gilrandir]

Have to agree there. Having talked over the issue with Madrid quietly -- and I assume at least a few 'deniable' emissaries did so -- and having thereby learned that there was no groundswell of support for secession, they should have known right then that it was a choice of 'lives, fortune, sacred honor' [call out the militia and fight for freedom as needed] or time to shut up and leave things be [inglorious, but their current lives aren't notably horrific].

I have to agree here that the Catalan leaders did not cover themselves with laurels here.

"Groundswell support" may be also ambiguous. It depends on what the groundswell is ready for - to get together, wave flags and go home after that or stay on the square and put up resistance in case they are pressed into submission.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"Groundswell support" may be also ambiguous. It depends on what the groundswell is ready for - to get together, wave flags and go home after that or stay on the square and put up resistance in case they are pressed into submission.

I meant support for the idea from Madrid, and was being a touch whimsical in word choice.

There was enough in Catalonia itself, over 40% of the population favoring independence. That was a higher percentage than existed in British Colonial America in 1775.

[Gilrandir]

There was enough in Catalonia itself, over 40% of the population favoring independence.

Again, "favoring" and "ready to put up a fight for it" make a difference.

And back to the topic: Catalan authorities mostly accepted the idea of new parliamentary elections in December. If the separatist forces get the majority again LEGALLY wouldn't it mean that the Catalans' mind is still set on secession? And wouldn't it become a signal for Madrid to start talking to them?

An update: some young Catalans are evidently ready to continue the struggle: https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/anim...ers/vp-AAuoHjA

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Again, "favoring" and "ready to put up a fight for it" make a difference.

Indeed, all the difference in the world.

[Fragony]

Puigemont has been arrested in Brussel supposedly. Thia is going to be (even more) interesting, no matter your stance as everybody has a point

Trial of the century coming up, he can face 30 year