It is. It is feared and mistrusted from Perth to Abadan.Begs the question why China isn't demonized in the same manner when it spends about $200bn and projects its influence more than Russia does, with North Korea in its backyard.
It is. It is feared and mistrusted from Perth to Abadan.Begs the question why China isn't demonized in the same manner when it spends about $200bn and projects its influence more than Russia does, with North Korea in its backyard.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Hmm, thanks to Sarkolland's policy, France is now part of NATO. Hopefully, France will withdraw for an Alliance where a Commander in Chief doesn't see the problem to use nuclear weapons.
If Trump want other countries to participate, what he really means is he want "allies" to buy very expensive US material.
So I think that it could be good for each nations to take their own defence and pay for it.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
i love nato.
which is why i support trump circa Nov16: "collective defense requires trustworthy partners, pay your dues!"
2.0%ftw
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Yes, and people complained that we didn't go to Iraq to support that failure. We did support the Libyan campaign in terms of there having been German AWACS crews and higher NATO staff involved IIRC. We basically just didn't abandon our allies but did not actively throw bombs. And to make us even worse, we took the bulk of the refugeess that these wars sent to Europe in the end, but I guess that doesn't count, instead we're being called idiots for that, too.
While I somewhat get the UK needing an abaility to leave its island, I don't see what parading around a border would do at this point other than waste money and give Putin more excuses to do what he does. If we had sent tanks upon request by the Ukrainian government to defend their territory, I'd understand that more than useless gestures that merely waste resources and increase the propaganda value on both sides.
The US are an ocean away, it's just their way to show they still care about Europe, but we are still here and included them into the EU, would we do that if we wanted to abandon them?
You're right though that the readiness could be better, I just doubt that anyone would care much.
And since I just mentioned the EU, the UK just decided that it is sick and tired of giving Polish people jobs and paying a tiny amount of money so Poland can be supported financially. And here all the people who supported that wholeheartedly suddenly complain that other countries aren't supporting Poland enough....
One could conclude that you just like military saber rattling and proving some cultural superiority (the "Western Empire"?), but don't really care about the people of Poland...
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
The price of being the dominant player in a wider hegemony is that you have to pay. If the US doesn't want to pay more, then accept a lesser input into the direction of the alliance.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
"Sure, go back to pretending to to be part of NATO, ready to re-integrate 5 minutes before they start shooting at you." Before Zarkolland, we were associated to NATO. With an independent Nuclear deterrent.
And no, France and US don't have similar interest. Not always. I had no problem with training with US soldiers and in fact did. No problem to have the same ammunition caliber. I have a problem when all high ranks in the hierarchy are reserved to US. I have problem when it leads to total subordination to US command. I have problem when France is just able to organise a operation like in Mali.
And I have deep problem that when France having refused to participate in an war which was illegitimate and ill prepared, France was insulted by our "allies".
You might have forgotten, I didn't.
Last edited by Brenus; 11-12-2016 at 23:41.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
I am bit confused. Total combined military expenditure of NATO countries is bit less then 905 billion dollars. Global annual military spending is 1.7 trillion.
NATO is spending more then 1/2 of annual world wide military spending. US spending alone is 595,472 billion $, which leaves Euros, Turkey and Canada spending together 309,441 billion $. In comparison Russia is spending 66,4 billion $ and China 215 billion $
Convince me that there is a real budgetary problem in the military spending of European NATO countries. I am rather thinking there is organisational problem, namely the money not being used at anything useful. Does Europe really need to put additional 50-100 billions to defense in order to deal with Russian armed forces with their 66,4 billion spending and will Canada be kicked off from NATO because of their 1% of GDP spending?
Last edited by Kagemusha; 11-12-2016 at 22:10.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
I need to reply to everything said in this thread at some point but for now Ill just respond to this: the Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) is always American, the deputy SACEUR has always been British or German. The Secretary-General is always a European, and the chairman of the military committee in NATO is almost always a non-American.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
NATO is a military alliance, the EU is a nascent state being erected against the wishes of its people.
Germany's army in particular is an embarrassment, given your industrial capacity, your wealth and your population to have a standing army smaller than the UK is just silly.
As to where your troops should be stationed, the answer is "On NATO's border", during the Cold War that was West Germany, now NATO has moved further east but German troops have not (British troops now are, belatedly.)
Germany has drawn down its forces because it no longer feels threatened by the Warsaw Pact, but it has downsized to the point at which it is not longer an effective force for stopping the Russians, it was 360,000 men-strong in 1990 after unification, it is now 55,000 men-strong.
By contrast the British army was 153,000 men-strong in 1990 and is now 84,760, apparently.
Despite this, your economy is larger than ours:
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/c...jected-gdp.php
We also have to maintain a larger Navy where, realistically, you don't.
To summarise - we aren't pulling our weight in NATO, but you aren't even trying.
It you were to ask me how large the British Army should be I would say probably around 120,000 trained strength, or roughly four combat divisions. The Germany army should probably be 20-25% larger than the British one.
Now, the French army is over 111,000 men which is at least respectable.
By Contract, the Russian army is roughly 400,000 men, including conscripts.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
That could also be seen as one of the key features: centralization of the authority to go to war.Originally Posted by Brenus
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
The above numbers are showing numbers of military personnel, not just Army so that's also Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard etc...
Trump's attitude toward NATO is certainly one of the most troubling things about him. I can only hope that the very pro-defense Republican establishment and his military advisers can strongly advise him against any weakening of NATO. Would be nice if our allies contributed more but forward basing etc.. is a lot help already. Glad our wounded in Iraq/Afghanistan didn't have to go all the way to the states for top level medical help.
Last edited by spmetla; 11-13-2016 at 03:27.
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
As noted, that's all military personnel, but I was pointing out that Germany lacks even a convincing land army.
I would reckon on us beating the Ruskies with them having a 2:1 advantage in numbers of tanks and other hardware and a 3:1 advantage in manpower. The current worry is the large number of modern tanks and Jets they have.
You also need to ask how countries like Britain can spend so much and have so little whilst Russia can spend so little and have so much.
Then you have the fact that we've virtually given up on tank development in the West having all caught "America's Disease" in that regard of trying to upgrade the same vehicles for decades. We have ceased to plan for conventional warfare whilst simultanously not spending enough on the one resource that is hardest to come by - men.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Well the worrying aspect about Russia isnt so much their infantry or even their planes. Its their very strong anti-air systems like the S-400 and the BUK of MH17 fame which can totally negate NATO airpower plus their nuclear weapons. NATO has nukes obviously but they have a lot more. Last figure I remember reading was that of all the nuclear bombs that NATO has, only about ~200 of those are actually in Europe.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Are you kidding?You also need to ask how countries like Britain can spend so much and have so little whilst Russia can spend so little and have so much.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Well in general, the Russian military pays their soldiers waaaaay less than most western armies. Last I recall it was about $6-12,000 USD a year for your average soldier. They also have a massive issue with maintenance, like their only aircraft carrier breaks down a lot. Needs to be accompanied by tugboats constantly because of how often its boilers break down. But at the same time the Russians build their equipment to be hardier than their western counterparts. I recall watching a video which said that Russian fighter jets can take off and land on whats basically dirt airfields while western planes cant otherwise their engines break.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
By this sort of reasoning, Thatcher should have been marveling at how comparably more powerful Saddam Hussein's military was.No.
I might also ask how France can spend less than the UK and have more.
France is one of the most militarily active countries in the world, and has been for decades. Their military budget has been continually growing. By comparison, the UK military is in 'maintenance' mode.
Rather than making arcade assumptions, compare the structures and doctrines (and procurements of the past generation) of the two countries and see what they are in fact spending money on. "War power" is not some generic resource with monotonic relationship to currency units.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Sometimes it is not the figures that are symptomatic of a country's military potential, but the quality of the units. How can you be sure that all Russian tanks are up to the task and not just obsolete buckets of bolts and nuts prone to malfunctioning at the most unappropriate moment - as it was the case with Armata at the parade (https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/...hearsals-46384)?
Russian planes have also crashed a number of times over the last copule of years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tary_accidents
2010 - a MiG-31 crashed in the Perm region, no one was injured.
6 September 2011 - a MiG-31 on a training mission crashed in the Perm region, killing the two pilots. The whole fleet of 370 fighters was grounded while an investigation into the cause was carried out.
13 March 2012 - a new Ka-52 attack helicopter crashed near Torzhok, killing both pilots.
23 May 2012 - a Russian-made An-30 military plane crashed while landing in Caslav, the Czech Republic. 23 were on board at the time, 6 of whom suffered burns, one being left in a critical condition. The plane's front landing gear collapsed as it touched down, causing it to leave the runway and break in two, catching fire. The passengers were made up of 14 Russians and 9 Czechs, all on an Open Sky treaty mission, for conducting surveillance flights over the territory of participant nations (NATO members, Russia and other countries).
29 October 2013 - a Ka-52 helicopter crashed in the south-east of Moscow. Both pilots ejected safely.
11 February 2014 - a Su-24 bomber crashed in Volgogradskaja oblast', just after take-off. Both pilots died. Pilot or mechanical error are suspected.
4 June 2015 - a MiG-29 fighter crashed and was completely destroyed in the Astrakhan oblast'. Both pilots parachuted to safety.
4 June 2015 - the same day an unarmed Su-34 bomber in Voronezh oblast' overshot the runway when its parachute failed to open on landing. It overturned, severely damaging the plane.
8 June 2015 - a Tu-95s ran off a runway at the Ukrainka bomber base and caught fire during take-off in the far eastern Amur region. As a result, one crew member was killed and another badly burned.
5 July 2015 - a MiG-29 crashed near Krasnodarsk reportedly due to a fire onboard. The pilot ejected and survived.
6 July 2015 - a Sukhoi Su-24M "Fencer" frontal strike-bomber crashed in the Khabarovskiy region soon after takeoff. Both pilots died.
14 July 2015 - a Tupolev Tu-95MS Bear strategic bomber crashed during a training flight 80km from Khabarovsk, killing two of seven pilots.
9 June 2016 - a Sukhoi SU-27 fighter plane crashed 30km from Moscow. The pilot died. All flights were SU-27s were suspended following the crash.
Note the upward tendency of crashes.
As for the navy:
I think you have seen pictures of "Admiral Kuznetsov" passing through the English channel (and farther into the Mediterranean) belching forth black smokes. They say it happens either when the engines are started after a long shutdown (and it lasts as long as it takes for the engines to warm up) or when the engines have serious problems.
So simple mathematics may not paint an objective picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_expenditures
Wee spend significantly more than France, but they have more full-time soldiers, a working Aircraft Carrier, more tanks, more jets etc. etc.
I was asking a rhetorical question.
We all know why the British military is a shitshow - we waste huge amounts of money on pointless projects - like huge aircraft carriers that will only carry 12 jump jet, despite being big enough to launch Super Hornets.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
I'm pro-NATO, and as far as my own country is concerned I think we should meet the 2% goal.
I don't buy that Trump intended his statements to be a mere bargaining tactic, though, even though it could very well end up being put to that use. He has said and done countless of stupid things, often with no conceivable benefit, so I think it's probably just a case of him pandering to those who think that the USA is doing too much for the world and everybody else is ungrateful.
To be fair, they're also less willing than others to be dependent on the USA.
He has said many things that appear to garner him different groups of votes, in some cases at the risk of alienating voters who were unlikely to vote for him anyway - an utterly no holds barred, "post-truth" win at all costs with no baggage of principles. Stupid? No. Sociopathic? Yes.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Saying things during the election campaign (aka promising) and implementing those things after one has been elected are often two different things. I heard that Trump's site has removed his promises not to let muslims in. Perhaps the same is in store for his other outrageous promises (for the example, the Wall financed by Mexicans). Hopefully, his surrounding and Congress won't allow him move beyond ordinary Republican agenda.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
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