Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 42

Thread: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

  1. #1
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    No longer in Albion
    Posts
    15,388

    Default Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    This is something I am surprised no one has posted about. Fideo Castro has passed away.

    Obituary: Fidel Castro
    Fidel Castro: Jeremy Corbyn praises 'huge figure'
    Donald Trump calls Fidel Castro 'brutal dictator'
    "What makes something right or wrong?" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." # | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs." RG

  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    8,996

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    I'm not a fan of "underdogs" in general, which removes a great deal of the charm fans like to attribute to him.

    Pulled off his campaigns in the Sierra Maestra in a way that puts ISIS to shame (from a tactical perspective). And of course, Islamic State is no island.

    Shrewd international politician. Static and inadequate domestic policies and reforms, but enough to hold his country together.

    Relatively low body count.
    Vitiate Man.

  3. #3
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,039

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Only when conpared to the other tinpot dictators.

    The man's a mass murderer in his own right and was responsible for the oppression and impoveration of a nation of 11 million for 50+ years, not that such a little thing is a detriment to his fans adoration; communist sympathisers are expert in denial.

    If he operated before the 1800's his would be a self-made feudal lord success story we could admire, perhaps like a C-list napoleon, however he lived in a time where the world was rocketing ahead socially, economically, technologically etc while he left his land stagnant and opressed, so is somewhat less laudable.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 11-27-2016 at 02:22.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Member thankful for this post:



  4. #4
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Of course the other choice at the time was Batista: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

    Given the choice, the poor probably came out better; still poor but with access to education and health care.
    Strictly my opinion, but had the U.S. maintained normal relations with Cuba (instead of acting like a butt hurt baby) it would likely be a democracy by now.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

    Member thankful for this post:

    Idaho 


  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    8,996

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Probably. It wouldn't have made sense to end WW2 by embargoing Japan, for example, unless you wanted to see a United Soviet Socialist Islands.
    Vitiate Man.

  6. #6
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,980

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Only when conpared to the other tinpot dictators.

    The man's a mass murderer in his own right and was responsible for the oppression and impoveration of a nation of 11 million for 50+ years, not that such a little thing is a detriment to his fans adoration; communist sympathisers are expert in denial.

    If he operated before the 1800's his would be a self-made feudal lord success story we could admire, perhaps like a C-list napoleon, however he lived in a time where the world was rocketing ahead socially, economically, technologically etc while he left his land stagnant and opressed, so is somewhat less laudable.
    Backroom rules please.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    8,996

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Don't you know? Greyblades has the right to be unconstrained by uncongenial constraints.
    Vitiate Man.

  8. #8
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,261

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Backroom rules please.
    Starting a thread on the topic like that the author should gave guessed that such comments are bound to appear.

  9. #9
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    12,758

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    I think that's fair, actually.

    Beskar invited comment by his choice of title and his choice of links. Given Castro's reputation it's not surprising some of that comment was negative.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  10. #10
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,261

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I think that's fair, actually.

    Beskar invited comment by his choice of title and his choice of links. Given Castro's reputation it's not surprising some of that comment was negative.
    That's what I said - given the personality of the diceased the violation of backroom rules was to be expected.

  11. #11
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    12,758

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    I know - I was agreeing with you.

    It happens here, occasionally.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    Members thankful for this post (4):



  12. #12
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,980

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I know - I was agreeing with you.

    It happens here, occasionally.
    I don't remember it happening when the likes of Kukri and Banquo were Backroom mods. When Thatcher died, I refrained from saying anything disrespectful during the initial period, as per Backroom custom.

  13. #13
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,189

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    And so it goes.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

    Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers.


  14. #14
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Halifax NewScotland Canada
    Posts
    4,101

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Of course the other choice at the time was Batista: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

    Given the choice, the poor probably came out better; still poor but with access to education and health care.
    Strictly my opinion, but had the U.S. maintained normal relations with Cuba (instead of acting like a butt hurt baby) it would likely be a democracy by now.
    Yep. One of the ironies of life that in Cuba Castro was the white hat.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

    VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

    I came, I saw, I kicked ass

    Member thankful for this post:



  15. #15
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    12,758

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I don't remember it happening when the likes of Kukri and Banquo were Backroom mods. When Thatcher died, I refrained from saying anything disrespectful during the initial period, as per Backroom custom.
    When I responded to Gilrandir I meant "agreeing with someone".

    As to breach of Backroom custom, my point there was that Beskar invited political comment by referencing Trump and Corbyn in the OP - rather than merely announcing Castro's death.

    For myself, I have a great deal to say but I was waiting for the Cremation because I have nothing nice to say about the man - which answers Beskar's question about why no one else posted the news before him.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  16. #16
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    7,700

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Indeed. Bar saying he managed to usurp power and hang on for so long with the CIA trying to kill him are probably the only two positives that comes to mind.

    Thatcher was incredibly divisive with many either loving or hating her. Besides Corbyn, does anyone think he did well by the country? If so great, a chance for a debate. But even tarring and feathering ashes seems rather mean-spirited.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

    Member thankful for this post:

    Xiahou 


  17. #17
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,261

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Indeed. Bar saying he managed to usurp power and hang on for so long with the CIA trying to kill him are probably the only two positives that comes to mind.
    I have one more. After the Chornobyl disaster he initiated free of charge treatment of Ukrainian children who sufferd from it. While this program was functioning about 24 000 kids underwent treatment in Cuba.

    Any person is never totally evil or good, there are different sides to him.

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    14,726

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Thatcher was incredibly divisive with many either loving or hating her. Besides Corbyn, does anyone think he did well by the country? If so great, a chance for a debate. But even tarring and feathering ashes seems rather mean-spirited.
    I can't say I'm a fan, but it may depend on how you define doing well by the country. In general Cubans seem happy, healthy and don't work their butts off to buy gadgets they don't need. It's not like everyone was deeply unhappy before capitalism and mass consumption came around the corner. He was still a dictator of course, but I don't know much about the kind of repression he used and how much it impacted the lives and happiness of the average Cuban. Cuba also sent some 200 or so doctors to help African countries fight the recent outbreak of Ebola, which is quite a lot of effort considering how small and relatively poor the country is.

    Might as well ask what have Western politicians done for their countries that people there are now so desperate that they vote for populists who promise them heaven on earth?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:



  19. #19
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,039

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    You should probably talk to the Cubans that escaped to florida, who survived being locked in cramped concrete cells, who slept on hard stone and fought rats that crawled from the latrine holes in the floor for the scrap of food and cup of dirty water they were allowed a day, or those that narrowly escaping being piled up in a mass grave.

    Most punished simply because they shared blood with someone who tried to fight or flee Castro's regime. This is the western hemisphere's north korea we're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Indeed. Bar saying he managed to usurp power and hang on for so long with the CIA trying to kill him are probably the only two positives that comes to mind.

    Thatcher was incredibly divisive with many either loving or hating her. Besides Corbyn, does anyone think he did well by the country? If so great, a chance for a debate. But even tarring and feathering ashes seems rather mean-spirited.

    Mean spirits are appropriate for a blackened soul. Mass murdering dictators dont deserve your courtesy.

    Seeing Trudeau taking another oppertunity to taste shoe leather was rather amusing at least.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 11-28-2016 at 17:06.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  20. #20
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,012

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    There is a week until the ceremonies are concluded. Being a backroom traditionalist, I will refrain from comment until then.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Exeter, England
    Posts
    6,418

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I know - I was agreeing with you.

    It happens here, occasionally.
    No it doesn't.

    [/ python]
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  22. #22
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,012

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Fulgencio Batista was a kleptocrat of the worst order, easily the equal of that Tunisian family in greed and even more shortsighted. He let Meyer Lansky redesign Habana as the ultimate whoring and gambling resort of the Western hemisphere at the exploitative expense of most of the locals who weren't in the Batista "elite," and pretty much every community in Cuba outside of Habana and Santiago. While not a torturous sicko dictator in the mold of Saddam Hussein al Tikriti, Batista killed or abetted the killing of thousands of his fellow Cubans -- even if you grant his anti-guerilla executions as 'legitimate' under the aegis of a government attempting to hold on to power. A revolution against his regime would have been an obvious and morally appropriate choice and the Castro brothers can well be commended for that, if nothing else.

    Fidel began his control of Cuba with a batch of show trials and executions -- admittedly, most of those who got the chop WOULD have been convicted in a proper court as they were Batista's thugs -- and then went about effecting the socialist anti-USA agenda he'd been dreaming of since going to college. While he certainly had his fair share of points about US economic exploitation in Cuba and Latin America, he managed over the now-known-to-be classic socialist model for dismantling of his own economy and the impoverishment of his own people. Of course, it is far easier to equitably distribute practically nothing, so that certainly evened things out. No 'haves,' only 'have nots.' How many people were killed as he consolidated power and set up his own system of mini-gulags for homosexuals and political dissidents? More than Batista did, for sure -- though admittedly probably less per year. He also oversaw the classic reduction in individual rights we associate with a communist state, curtailing all of the basic freedoms we associate with democracy in his 'republic.'

    Of course, they have great health care, as everyone is so quick to point out. A doctor in every neighborhood, specialists as needed, heavy emphasis on preventive care....Not quite. Please note that the source herein included is Lucia Newman, a Latin American specialized journalist who resided in Cuba for years and who is a) NOT an apologist for the USA as am I, and b) writes for Al Jazeera, who are themselves NOT noted for supporting an American agenda. Short version? The great healthcare system worked like a charm when it was propped up by Soviet money. Now most of the medications are available only on the black market and people are bribing their "free" neighborhood doctors to get to the front of the line for care. Though they did make some notable advances, Cuban "cutting edge" efforts in medical care are now lagging far behind. Accusations don't stop there, with some sources suggesting that infant mortality rates and life expectancies were both "cooked" to show how much better Cuba was. Hardly surprising in a communist state taking its lead from Pravda and Izvestiya on accuracy in reportage.

    Bottom line for me? Yeah, someone like him was probably inevitable given the excesses of Batista and Batista was not the only tin-pot dictator the USA should have shunned. But Fidel was no better, in practice, for the Cuban people than was Batista. He was, when all is said and bruited about, just another dictator, albeit with a much better PR machine. With Fidel's death it is two brothers down and one to go. Maybe when Raul checks out, the "new generation" of Cuban communists will punt that stupid system of governance and Cuba might actually be free.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

    Members thankful for this post (2):

    HusarTuuvi 


  23. #23
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    14,726

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Short version? The great healthcare system worked like a charm when it was propped up by Soviet money. Now most of the medications are available only on the black market and people are bribing their "free" neighborhood doctors to get to the front of the line for care. Though they did make some notable advances, Cuban "cutting edge" efforts in medical care are now lagging far behind. Accusations don't stop there, with some sources suggesting that infant mortality rates and life expectancies were both "cooked" to show how much better Cuba was.
    Well, where would our western countries be if it hadn't been for colonialism, trade and cooperation?
    The US were/are having trouble enacting death sentences because a German supplier stopped giving them the poison they need.
    Similarly, we all have more things because of cheap Chinese labor and so on.
    That's not to say Cuba should or could be a paradise, but the US sanctions surely aren't helping them in any way either.
    I mean, is it really just because of their economy or also because they have hardly any friends in the world and their biggest neighbor boycots them until they do his bidding?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    8,996

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    The argument that Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro were forced into Soviet-sponsored socialism not by ideological inclination but by Yankee aggression is wrong -

    but Yankee aggression certainly forced them into Soviet sponsorship.
    Vitiate Man.

  25. #25
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    12,758

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Well, where would our western countries be if it hadn't been for colonialism, trade and cooperation?
    The US were/are having trouble enacting death sentences because a German supplier stopped giving them the poison they need.
    Similarly, we all have more things because of cheap Chinese labor and so on.
    That's not to say Cuba should or could be a paradise, but the US sanctions surely aren't helping them in any way either.
    I mean, is it really just because of their economy or also because they have hardly any friends in the world and their biggest neighbor boycots them until they do his bidding?
    It should be noted that the embargo is due to Cuba seizing all privately owned businesses, afaik without apology, justification or restitution.

    Castro was loved in Cuba, there was a time when, after the fall of the Soviet Union, he could have used his popularity and influence to guide Cuba towards democracy - he didn't.

    In my view that is what he should be remembered for.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    Member thankful for this post:



  26. #26
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,012

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Well, where would our western countries be if it hadn't been for colonialism, trade and cooperation?
    The US were/are having trouble enacting death sentences because a German supplier stopped giving them the poison they need.
    Similarly, we all have more things because of cheap Chinese labor and so on.
    That's not to say Cuba should or could be a paradise, but the US sanctions surely aren't helping them in any way either.
    I mean, is it really just because of their economy or also because they have hardly any friends in the world and their biggest neighbor boycots them until they do his bidding?
    I have disagreed with the boycott several times in previous threads. Something is continued when five decades of experience indicates it has not achieved its objective touches on that definition of insanity thing.

    That said, Cuba's real problems are the SAME problems shared by most of the Caribbean -- little or nothing but agro resources in a world that pays little for them, and tourism has its limits.

    That has been true since the early 1800s when the use of the sugar beet by Europe allowed them to stop relying on Caribbean cane for their sugar (and let them actually get around to abolishing slavery at last, so they could climb up on their high horse vis-à-vis the new worlders).
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

    Member thankful for this post:

    Husar 


  27. #27
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,012

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It should be noted that the embargo is due to Cuba seizing all privately owned businesses, afaik without apology, justification or restitution.

    Castro was loved in Cuba, there was a time when, after the fall of the Soviet Union, he could have used his popularity and influence to guide Cuba towards democracy - he didn't.

    In my view that is what he should be remembered for.
    If you read his personal history, that time never really existed for him (though you are right about his popularity). By the time he took power from Batista, he'd had a decade or more of "the USA is the source of Latin American problems" that he'd learned, espoused, and participated in and he was clearly a pretty ardent socialist by that point. Absent the Cold War and America's Cold War pressure politics, he may not have become a Soviet client and gone the route of some form of Chavismo instead, but he was not going to support El Norte and he was not gonna go capitalist.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  28. #28
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    14,726

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    The argument that Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro were forced into Soviet-sponsored socialism not by ideological inclination but by Yankee aggression is wrong -

    but Yankee aggression certainly forced them into Soviet sponsorship.
    Not sure who or what you are replying to as I did certainly not make the first argument you mention.
    My argument was more along the lines that the ability to trde with their neighbor might help their economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It should be noted that the embargo is due to Cuba seizing all privately owned businesses, afaik without apology, justification or restitution.
    I'm sure there was a justification.
    And then how exactly does the embargo help with that? Did anyone get their property back or did it deprive the people of Cuba of even more property?
    IMO, especially by now, the embargo is more about hurt pride, revenge, hatred and making a point that not adhering to US politics is bad for all the small nations around the US. Trump is actually even more of that. He wants to return jobs from Mexico to the US and build a wall to keep the criminals out. The first measure creates a problem (more criminals in Mexico due to poverty), the second is meant to protect the in-group, which is also partially responsible for the problem in the first place (purchase drugs from cartels).
    And people wonder why bullying is still around when the bullies get elected President.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    8,996

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Not sure who or what you are replying to as I did certainly not make the first argument you mention.
    It's a commonly-heard argument in general, that Cuba/Vietnam were purely nationalist and non-socialist (or at least non-Communist) revolutions that were subsequently radicalized by American aggression. Seamus referenced it as well in his commentary.
    Vitiate Man.

  30. #30
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,261

    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Trump is actually even more of that. He wants to return jobs from Mexico to the US and build a wall to keep the criminals out.
    Did he use the word "criminals" or did he just say "Mexicans"?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO