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Thread: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

  1. #31
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    If you read his personal history, that time never really existed for him (though you are right about his popularity). By the time he took power from Batista, he'd had a decade or more of "the USA is the source of Latin American problems" that he'd learned, espoused, and participated in and he was clearly a pretty ardent socialist by that point. Absent the Cold War and America's Cold War pressure politics, he may not have become a Soviet client and gone the route of some form of Chavismo instead, but he was not going to support El Norte and he was not gonna go capitalist.
    What you are saying is that he was incapable of seeing the world in any way which did not fit his pre-existing prejudices. I stand by my assessment, his failure to lead Cuba to Democracy was a grievous flaw in his character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I'm sure there was a justification.
    And then how exactly does the embargo help with that? Did anyone get their property back or did it deprive the people of Cuba of even more property?
    IMO, especially by now, the embargo is more about hurt pride, revenge, hatred and making a point that not adhering to US politics is bad for all the small nations around the US. Trump is actually even more of that. He wants to return jobs from Mexico to the US and build a wall to keep the criminals out. The first measure creates a problem (more criminals in Mexico due to poverty), the second is meant to protect the in-group, which is also partially responsible for the problem in the first place (purchase drugs from cartels).
    And people wonder why bullying is still around when the bullies get elected President.
    The point of the embargo was to show that the US can't do business with Cuba, because Cuba will just steel American assets. At the time Cuba served as an object lesson. As always, the people gets crushed under politics.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  2. #32
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    What you are saying is that he was incapable of seeing the world in any way which did not fit his pre-existing prejudices. I stand by my assessment, his failure to lead Cuba to Democracy was a grievous flaw in his character.
    Your phrasing suggested that it was a possibility he had but turned away from as a result of US aggression. You did not, in the post to which I had responded, use the phrase a "flaw in his character." With that I would have agreed, and with which I concur.

    I was also trying to point up the myth that it was a "democratic" revolution driven into the arms of the communists by US aggression.

    Castro's first political hero was Marti, who thought the USA nothing more than a cultural imperialist aggressor. His second political hero was Marx -- whose philosophies he embraced in the late 1940s, a full decade before ousting Batista from power. His reticence, if any, regarding the Soviet Union was because of Stalin as Stalin had not been true enough to the cause of socialism with his cult of personality overriding the socialist ideal (I hope you are seeing the same irony I do in that little tidbit).

    There was NEVER a chance that he would have allowed a democratic republic to develop in Cuba, because he knew that the USA would, via economics, wield too much influence over Cuba (and a repeat Batista would have been possible). His only effort to secure USA funds for Cuba was a play promulgated through a Latin American Economics conference-- since he wanted the money to develop things but did NOT want to be on a string to the USA. We did not choose to pay for a Marshall Plan to cover his nationalizing everything....which had already started....

    He was a socialist well before he took power; had an agrarian reform law on the books before the end of the year using his puppet president, began meetings during that presidency to chart out a socialist state model for Cuba, met with soviet representatives and established relations with soviet client states during the first year of his premiership (getting a loan from them in exchange for resources) and began nationalizing US owned refineries when they balked at refining oil that would then be shipped to the Soviet Union. All of this was BEFORE the Bay of Pigs that supposedly pushed him into the arms of the USSR.

    It is POSSIBLE that, had we agreed to be suckers and hand him $30B, or encouraged US refineries to process oil for our Cold War opponents, we MIGHT have had an anti-American socialist dictatorship in the style of Chavez instead of an ally of the Soviet Union -- not that that would have been a great bargain. Then again, in the bi-polar world of the Cold War, I really don't think it could have trended any other way.


    The "neo-cons" of that era argued that we should NOT have accepted the events of Cuba in 1960, but should have responded to the nationalization of US industry by invading and putting down the Castro regime, establishing a constabulary, and then transitioning Cuba to a Republic which would not be a kleptocracy but WOULD have been accepting of US guidance on things international. Ike -- either not wanting that for his legacy or disagreeing with the success chance/costs -- said no. Instead, Ike began the Bay of Pigs effort which was handed off to his successor who made two immediate mistakes: Allowing the invasion effort to continue and then, after deciding for it to go forward, cutting off much of its support. For all of Kennedy's excellent efforts and brinksmanship beginning in the latter half of his administration, Kennedy's OJT during the first year or so was horrifically bad.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 12-06-2016 at 20:26.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  3. #33
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Castro managed to turn Cuba, a country with an active, promising economy into decades of stagnation due primarily to the failures of central planning. He stripped Cuba's citizens of basic rights and kept them impoverished, while amassing a personal fortune estimated at about 900 million dollars.

    Not a good guy.

    For more fun, read 10 Surprising Facts About Fidel Castro's Life And Wealth.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-08-2016 at 04:04.
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  4. #34
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Yes, totally nothing to do with the embargo. Meanwhile some nice correspondence about the poor ladies in white:
    https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08HAVANA753_a.html
    https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08HAVANA613_a.html

    I would really like to see how would the US treat political groups sponsored by Iran, Russia or any other member of the axis of evil.

  5. #35
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    The embargo only covered the usa and it's sphere of influence particularly the uk and south america. Cuba was free to trade with the rest of the world and indeed did spend much of its communist tenure living off a soviet subsidiary, though when the wall fell so did cuba's props.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
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  6. #36
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    I would really like to see how would the US treat political groups sponsored by Iran, Russia or any other member of the axis of evil.
    They just elected a Russian shill as their new president, but it surprised me, too.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  7. #37
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    The embargo only covered the usa and it's sphere of influence particularly the uk and south america. Cuba was free to trade with the rest of the world and indeed did spend much of its communist tenure living off a soviet subsidiary, though when the wall fell so did cuba's props.
    Indeed- Cuba had a very active tourism industry that made them lots of money thanks to their gouging/currency manipulation (see convertible peso)

    Of course, all the tourist trap hotels and resorts are state owned, so all the money went......? Most likely into Castro's pockets.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  8. #38
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Surprising to see that being unable to trade with the strongest economies is not considered a serious disadvantage. By the way, could we have a source of Fidel embezzling all that money, instead of random accusations?
    I have difficulty to believe that the man who willingly abandoned a comfortable life to endanger his own life in the Cuban mountains fighting a kleptocratic dictatorship is so greedy and hedonistic.
    Preferably a source not originating from salty pimps wasting our time in Miami.

  9. #39
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Didn't see the data the Forbes piece used for the claim. Most of the other sites suggesting his wealth are expat Cuban...so....
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  10. #40
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    I think people speculating on Castro's private wealth and people denying it are suffering from the Trump Illusion, more salient now that Trump will be in political office.

    The Trump Illusion involves the debate over Trump's "true" net worth, while missing that in many ways this question is irrelevant in light of the substantive power that Trump (the investor/businessman) has been able to exercise, the connections and favors he has been able to call upon. In the Cuban context, and in the context of many such regimes over history, the question of how much a dictator may hold in some bank accounts means nothing one way or another as that dictator can translate his direct political power and coercion into an identical private outcome.

    If Castro wanted quality cigars or fine meals or excellent furnishing or quid pro quo with non-Cuban groups or leaders, whether he could pay for this from his own assets was never a question anyone needed to ask.
    Vitiate Man.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    Simpler formulation: "L'etat c'est moi."
    Vitiate Man.

    Member thankful for this post:



  12. #42
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Life & Death of Fidel Castro

    He was a self made tyrant, also known as a real life basis for a pre enlightenment hero. Pity he was born 400 years late.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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