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Thread: Sequel as plagiarism?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    If a student copies an entire page of wikipedia for a report on a subject, and explains "This is copied directly from Wikipedia", then he is not plagiarizing. He is merely ignoring the terms of the assignment.

    That is all plagiarism amounts to: lack of attribution.
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  2. #32
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    How can you write an LOTR story without using places and people from LOTR, unless you write sci-fi set thousands of years into that world's future? Or wouldn't that also seem like plagiarism to you?
    The initial premise contains the seed of plagiarism. Any LOTR story is borrowing an idea, which smells of plagiarism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Now I want you to give a serious answer to this: is it plagiaristic to use characters and places from Greco-Roman epics or from the Bible? If so, you seem to fall back into the notion of any concept reused as plagiarism, making it a trivial term. If not, why not?
    If you borrow a character and set him into a different time/age (Achilles as POTUS), it is not plagiarism, in my opinion. Although it would seem like you lack imagination to come up with characters of your own. As for borrowing places, it is clearly not plagiarism. Geographical locations are not inventions of anyone (at least not of those who wrote myths or the Bible), thus the talk of plagiarism in this case is irrelevant.

    But if you take, say, Troy and relate a story of how it throve 300 years later after the siege and bring in some characters of the classical myth (let's imagine that they could live that long, or some unageing gods that took active interest in the city again) it would be very close to plagiarism - not of the original TEXT, but of the original IDEA, mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Merely adopting a framework with a clear reference to the original author of said framework is not what I would see as plagiarising.
    This rule holds for scholarly texts. I'm afraid it is not so for fiction. And Perumov didn't mention in his book Tolkien a single time. To tell the truth, it would look weird - a reference in a fiction text.

  3. #33
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If a student copies an entire page of wikipedia for a report on a subject, and explains "This is copied directly from Wikipedia", then he is not plagiarizing. He is merely ignoring the terms of the assignment.

    That is all plagiarism amounts to: lack of attribution.
    Again, this is correct for scholarly treatises. Fiction is a story apart.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    And Perumov didn't mention in his book Tolkien a single time.
    Neither does Tolkien, right? Unless you mean that Perumov didn't actually advertise his novel as set in Tolkien's mythos?

    borrowing an idea, which smells of plagiarism.
    But if you take, say, Troy and relate a story of how it throve 300 years later after the siege and bring in some characters of the classical myth (let's imagine that they could live that long, or some unageing gods that took active interest in the city again) it would be very close to plagiarism - not of the original TEXT, but of the original IDEA, mind you.
    Then that will have to be the crux of the disagreement. If a mere reuse of ideas should be plagiaristic, then we cannot fail to find any given work plagiaristic until we have run out of places to look. If its only the reuse of characters, events, or places that factors in, then it becomes even more meaningless and disconnected from the institutional usage.

    What utility do you see in your specification of the concept?
    Last edited by Montmorency; 12-03-2016 at 12:24.
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  5. #35
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Neither does Tolkien, right? Unless you mean that Perumov didn't actually advertise his novel as set in Tolkien's mythos?
    Perumov's book was advertised as an enchanting sequel to LOTR. But Tolkien wasn't mentioned in the book itself (it would be strange indeed if it was - "once upon a time in what Tolkien called Middle-earth" ). I doubt that Perumov was in charge of advertising campaign, but he can't have failed to realize what he was writing a sequel to - it was indeed the chief purpose of his book (if we forget about money).

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Then that will have to be the crux of the disagreement. If a mere reuse of ideas should be plagiaristic, then we cannot fail to find any given work plagiaristic until we have run out of places to look.
    No one is held guilty until the guilt is proven. But if everybody (including Perumov) knows whose ideas he has reused, the case seems clear, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If its only the reuse of characters, events, or places that factors in, then it becomes even more meaningless and disconnected from the institutional usage.
    I have already explained my take on reusal places and characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    What utility do you see in your specification of the concept?
    It is not MY specification of the concept under discussion (the bolded is mine):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

    Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work.

    Besides, if we speak of "language" and "expressions" Perumov's book exposes a very similar to Tolkien's manner to name the chapters.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 12-03-2016 at 12:55.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    But you consistently avoid including

    and the representation of them as one's own original work.
    in your specification, so it clearly doesn't match the reference.
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  7. #37
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But you consistently avoid including



    in your specification, so it clearly doesn't match the reference.
    As I said, he never referred to Tolkien's legendarium in his work. Moreover, Perumov's book bears his name on the hardcover. Doesn't it mean he presents the concept as his own?

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    http://www.corina.com/en/aut/perum.html

    There is no mistaking the attributions. Also, I note he has been doing this since the collapse of the Soviet Union. He translated the English originals. There is no question as to what he is writing.
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    As for Christopher Tolkien, in general he seems to embody the shallowness of the original works, what later authors around the world (such as apparently Perumov) at least try to revise:

    "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25," Christopher said of "The Lord Of The Rings," revealing he turned down an invitation to meet Jackson. "And it seems that 'The Hobbit' will be the same kind of film." And while most families of authors would be thrilled to be associated with a billion dollar franchise (even if, in this case, they only get a small portion of that coin), as Christopher's son notes, that's not the case here.

    "Normally, the executors of the estate want to promote a work as much as they can," Adam Tolkien said. "But we are just the opposite. We want to put the spotlight on that which is not 'Lord of the Rings.' "

    As for Christopher, he offers a bleak assessment on the legacy of his father and his work, which is now part of a movie machine that won't be going away any time soon. "Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time," he pondered. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."
    Bad themes, worse heroes, pointless villains. I despise what those works stand for. But that's my tangential rant, triggered by Christopher's remarks.
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  10. #40
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    http://www.corina.com/en/aut/perum.html

    There is no mistaking the attributions. Also, I note he has been doing this since the collapse of the Soviet Union. He translated the English originals. There is no question as to what he is writing.
    I don't see how it refutes my claim. IN HIS BOOK he never said that it took Tolkien's works as a background. He has been employing a whole imaginary world created by another person ("another author's thoughts/ideas" as the definition of plagiarism goes) in a book which bears HIS NAME as the author.

    As for his translation skills, I was especially shocked when he translated The Sundering Sea as Гремящее Море (The Thundering Sea). I also spotted some other discrepancies which don't make Perumov into a meticulous Tolkien reader (which is essential for a translator, especially of such a writer as JRR).

    Someone built two storeys of a house and another man added a third one. Our debate is about who is the architect of the edifice. I believe that the second architect couldn't have introduced anything conceptually new since it would be at stylistic discord with what had already been built. Moreover, the second one couldn't go out of the limits of the initial building since the whole construction would collapse. So the second architect could just ape the lower building structure and ornaments, perhaps adding a touch or two of his own.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Our debate is about who is the architect of the edifice.
    What I have been getting across is that this is not a relevant approach.

    IN HIS BOOK
    in a book which bears HIS NAME as the author.
    So what? It's not Tolkien's book. It's a LOTR book written by a different party. A book does not need to include, "SET IN THE WORLD OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN" to affirm attribution.
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  12. #42
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    What I have been getting across is that this is not a relevant approach.
    Then we agree to differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    So what? It's not Tolkien's book. It's a LOTR book written by a different party. A book does not need to include, "SET IN THE WORLD OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN" to affirm attribution.
    The bolded makes the concept unoriginal. But we are going around in circles, don't you think?

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    The bolded makes the concept unoriginal. But we are going around in circles, don't you think?
    Yes, we just came back to the beginning of the thread, when I tried to distinguish unoriginality and plagiarism.
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  14. #44
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    As for Christopher Tolkien, in general he seems to embody the shallowness of the original works, what later authors around the world (such as apparently Perumov) at least try to revise:

    Bad themes, worse heroes, pointless villains. I despise what those works stand for. But that's my tangential rant, triggered by Christopher's remarks.
    I'm not sure how you can describe Christopher Tolkien as embodying the shallowness of the original works, when History of Middle Earth is one of the most meticulous compilations of any literary collection ever. From my browsing of the relevant areas, I can think of an alternative LotR with alternative characters, and also why JRR made the creative decisions that he did. And all that from their own comments, without any extrapolation from me. And LotR was relatively straight forward compared with the many storylines of the Silmarillion, such as the many Galadriels, each of which contradicts the others.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    It's broad, but in spirit closer to Winnie the Pooh.

    My dislike has grown over the years, though to a lesser extent with the films.
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  16. #46
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It's broad, but in spirit closer to Winnie the Pooh.

    My dislike has grown over the years, though to a lesser extent with the films.
    Are you familiar with HoME? Or even the Silmarillion?

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Are you familiar with HoME? Or even the Silmarillion?
    Not interested. My dislike doesn't have to do with the mechanics of world-building.
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  18. #48
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Winnie is more compelling storytelling.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

    Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers.

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  19. #49
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    A new aspect of the issue has come up to my mind: modding. It is not only using someone's idea and concept. It amounts to using someone's product. Can we call it plagiarism?

  20. #50
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    A new aspect of the issue has come up to my mind: modding. It is not only using someone's idea and concept. It amounts to using someone's product. Can we call it plagiarism?
    That, I can comment on. George RR Martin explicitly allows the Westeros mod to use his world in their manner, with due credit given and no profit made, etc.

  21. #51
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    That, I can comment on. George RR Martin explicitly allows the Westeros mod to use his world in their manner, with due credit given and no profit made, etc.
    And what if no permission is obtained? Did Creative Assembly allow any of the mods of Total war series? In my view, it is not about permission, it is about principle - taking a dish that others had cooked and after spicing it differently present to the public (often being very proud of one's skills as a chef).
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 12-13-2016 at 11:59.

  22. #52
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And what if no permission is obtained? Did Creative Assembly allow any of the mods of Total war series? In my view, it is not about permission, it is about principle - taking a dish that others had cooked and after spicing it differently present to the public (often being very proud of one's skills as a chef).
    CA doesn't mind mods AFAIK, and I've given an example of an author explicitly giving permission for a mod based on his work. That's as concrete an argument for mods as you're going to get, and I doubt that any reasonably western court will rule against that. With these concrete arguments at all levels, your attempt to turn this into an argument of principle is rhetorical at best.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And what if no permission is obtained? Did Creative Assembly allow any of the mods of Total war series? In my view, it is not about permission, it is about principle - taking a dish that others had cooked and after spicing it differently present to the public (often being very proud of one's skills as a chef).
    By your standard the Brothers Grimm would be plagiarists of the first order. Similarly any philologist would also be. Much would now be lost to the world.

    I find that a tad bit extreme.


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  24. #54
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sequel as plagiarism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    CA doesn't mind mods AFAIK, and I've given an example of an author explicitly giving permission for a mod based on his work. That's as concrete an argument for mods as you're going to get, and I doubt that any reasonably western court will rule against that. With these concrete arguments at all levels, your attempt to turn this into an argument of principle is rhetorical at best.
    I have been quite explicit that I'm not intersted in any lawful/copyrigth considerations, so my argument WAS the one of principle all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    By your standard the Brothers Grimm would be plagiarists of the first order.
    AFAIK, they were collectors of popular folklore. The latter has no author by default, so I don't think plagiarims is involved here. But conceptually, they are unoriginal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Similarly any philologist would also be. Much would now be lost to the world.
    A philologist STUDIES texts, not PUBLISHES texts created by others as his own.

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