I think Colbert (via Wonkette here) has the perfect summation:
http://wonkette.com/609228/stephen-c...re-to-shove-it
I think Colbert (via Wonkette here) has the perfect summation:
http://wonkette.com/609228/stephen-c...re-to-shove-it
Ja-mata TosaInu
Comedian chastises people for beleiving in conspiracies while quoting the russian hackers theory as if true.“Where’d this conspiracy theory start? Apparently some ‘alt-right’ folks were combing through Clinton campaign emails hacked by Russia and published by Wikileaks, and noticed there seems to be more references to pizza and pizzerias than they expected, which can only mean one thing: SECRET SEX RING.”
Last edited by Greyblades; 12-11-2016 at 02:28.
So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...to-elect-trump
"Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials," the Post reports. "Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton's chances."
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Greyblades would have dismissed rumours about these guys if they'd been on GB's political side.
I feel GB has fallen into the deep end.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
You either still believe the CIA's claims that there were WMDs in iraq or Pannonian is projecting his habits onto me with the power of a five megaton bomb... No, with all he has said over the past year he'd still be projecting if he did.
There has been no hard evidence for the idea of russian involvement presented to the public and the greatest indicator is the insitance of an organization that once perpetuated the most destructive lie in our generation and has a chip on it's shoulder for the entity it accuses, that makes it but a theory by definition, one with the same degree of foundation as pizzagate.
I emerged from the deep end you three are still wallowing in and that prevents you from acknowledgeing any degree of moderation, restraint or base sanity on my part.
Last edited by Greyblades; 12-11-2016 at 17:24.
What would you consider such hard evidence? The source code of the hacked government databases and the access logs as .txt files? Or maybe a tortured Russian who claims he did it?
I get that the CIA can't always be trusted, but I don't think they can do much with this considering that opinions on Russia are mostly set and they can hardly be aiming for an invasion either. So why would they lie about it considering their future boss is probably not amused about them saying it? They didn't ask for a re-election AFAIK, they merely said it should be considered for future elections.
Maybe you want to explain how one runs a sex trafficking ring out of a nonexistant cellar?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
You think that unlikely do you. The CIA consists of one part that gathers and annualises data but never reveals what it knows or how it knows it. Other parts are dedicated to misinformation, propaganda, and swaying public opinion. They are always ready to interject into politics, foreign or domestic.
to paraphrase a past director; When everything people believe is a lie, we will have done our job.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
And you think it is unlikely that a nation that fakes its own elections, has ground down all political opposition, silenced all opposing media and is known to have heavily invested in IT education and knowledge would try to influence the elections of a rivalling, stronger nation in favor of a candidate who wants to abandon a lot of allies of the stronger nation which the first nation may want as convenient satellites or new territories?
I really can't see the motive either.
As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
I would argue that Russian Propaganda is better propaganda than American Propaganda. Because good propaganda has to build on its elements of truth. That coming from most of the US outlets relies much too much on peoples desire to just believe the big lie told often enough.
Take for instance the Washington Post's recent articles on Fake News. The rely entirely on anonymous sources or shadowy groups as proof of Russian involvement. With no way to vet the information you are forced to either believe them or reject the proposition as unprovable.
It is not to say that Russia would not have cause to seek influence but it just an emotional appeal or appeal to authority at best.
Trust in American Media is at a low ebb. Fake News is also a driving factor behind a move to censor media not in the hands of the Corporate Established Order. There is absolutely no reason to trust them any more than there is reason to trust the Russians.
At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
What does giving them a pass mean though? If I don't give them a pass, the same thing will happen than if I don't, nothing.
That was what I meant by lack of motive, people who love Russia will think it is a lie and those who don't can just go on as well.
If the CIA made up such a thing in order to put Russia in a worse position, it seems like a big failure either way.
If your argument is that we should not be vigilant regarding Russian attempts at manipulation of any kind when the next round of European elections come around, I'd say that's a dangerous idea. If you think about it, what happens if Trump withdraws his NATO support for most or all Euro countries and then the EU falls apart with loads of bad blood? We certainly saw what happened in Ukraine when there was internal turmoil. Maybe we'd just say goodbye to the Baltic states or so at first...
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
The US may have had less of a problem with Russian agents in the past due to both geographical distance and political distance, but the Euros have had their experiences. Britain is less leftward-leaning than most European countries, yet we've had our problems, as I've linked above. The kind of evidence that eventually exposed them would probably not pass the muster of the standards you demand, yet history has no doubt that they were indeed Soviet spies.
Never ever trust Russian propaganda more than the messages given by your own outlets. Your media may be misguided, but they won't, as a general rule, deliberately work to harm you. Russian media has that as its basic purpose. If the Russians tell you something unknown, investigate further, but never accept their conclusions. Always ask why they're saying something.
The blaming of Russia for the hacked emails is more excuse than anything else. The DNC emails were insider leaks. Pedesta’s emails were the result of him losing his smartphone. Where Russia may play a part is in Hillary’s Private Server. The unsecured server containing highly classified information and the revelations of the Pay for Play. It was hacked several times and not just by one party. If anything should have influenced the election it was Hillary’s own stupidity and obvious lies to cover it up.
The emails were not that critical in deciding the election. Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.
Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.
People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.
The controversy now rests on the deep state trying to regain control of the narrative. Russia is the traditional boogieman. If it were only Anonymous Hackers they lose the moral high ground.
As to my remarks on propaganda, it was only a quality judgment. Propaganda is ubiquitous. Every government, organisation, and corporate interest wants to tell you what to think and none of them want you to exercise critical thinking. Choosing to believe one set of propaganda over another is just lazy and stupid. None of it is in your personal interest. It is far more likely to do harm than good.
Belief is accepting someones word for it. I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Whatever your own suspicions about your own government, and I suspect that Americans can afford to be blase about the Russian threat as the Soviets never really infiltrated them, I am utterly confident that the Russians have no well meaning for us, having both read up on our secret agencies during WWII and noting that many of the most influential figures were Soviet agents, and having been part of the British Left that has long resisted the infiltration of Russian influence (and ultimately failed). I don't know if my own government means well for me, but I certainly know that the Russians don't.
This approach is unreflective, emollient, and invariably fails itself.Originally Posted by Fisherking
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Oh, how badly our mainstays flail when the illusion of consensus crumbles.
In other news the FBI refused to blindly support CIA's conclusions.
Originally Posted by CNN
Last edited by Greyblades; 12-12-2016 at 17:43.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I said knowledge. You assumed Truth. Authority does not equal truth either. It is usually a self justified conclusion by those who assume it.
I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Alright, let's think about that. How do you evaluate on purely personal grounds that you are making an informed decision, that your information is the best available, or that you are competent to approach it? Moreover, how can you do this in generalized opposition to or mistrust of others and of groups? How do you justify a claim to knowledge in that light?I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
But that's just a gloze. Taking yourself for granted is no different than taking "propaganda" for granted.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
This is one aspect of my complaint against the notion that one should or can take confidence in their own thought as independent from individuals or institutions - yet I suspect you aren't expressing your agreement.Certainly questioning others may be a good way to learn but it gives now weight at all to you opinions.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
We are rather far off topic but I am aware of your view that everyone is a meat puppet operating on hormones and cosmic rays, or what ever. It seems a convenient excuse to disregard serious thought or contemplation and to excuse ones wrong choices. Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
That's not what I was talking about. Whether true or untrue the problem I raised remains on how to avoid undermining your asserted moral autonomy through contradictions.Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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