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Thread: Internet Conspiracies becoming Mainstream

  1. #31
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    I think Colbert (via Wonkette here) has the perfect summation:

    http://wonkette.com/609228/stephen-c...re-to-shove-it
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  2. #32
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    “Where’d this conspiracy theory start? Apparently some ‘alt-right’ folks were combing through Clinton campaign emails hacked by Russia and published by Wikileaks, and noticed there seems to be more references to pizza and pizzerias than they expected, which can only mean one thing: SECRET SEX RING.”
    Comedian chastises people for beleiving in conspiracies while quoting the russian hackers theory as if true.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 12-11-2016 at 01:28.
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  3. #33
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Comedian chastises people for beleiving in conspiracies while quoting the russian hackers theory as if true.
    So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...to-elect-trump

    "Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials," the Post reports. "Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton's chances."


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  4. #34
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...to-elect-trump
    Greyblades would have dismissed rumours about these guys if they'd been on GB's political side.

  5. #35
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    I feel GB has fallen into the deep end.
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  6. #36
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...to-elect-trump
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Greyblades would have dismissed rumours about these guys if they'd been on GB's political side.
    You either still believe the CIA's claims that there were WMDs in iraq or Pannonian is projecting his habits onto me with the power of a five megaton bomb... No, with all he has said over the past year he'd still be projecting if he did.

    There has been no hard evidence for the idea of russian involvement presented to the public and the greatest indicator is the insitance of an organization that once perpetuated the most destructive lie in our generation and has a chip on it's shoulder for the entity it accuses, that makes it but a theory by definition, one with the same degree of foundation as pizzagate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I feel GB has fallen into the deep end.
    I emerged from the deep end you three are still wallowing in and that prevents you from acknowledgeing any degree of moderation, restraint or base sanity on my part.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 12-11-2016 at 16:24.
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  7. #37
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    There has been no hard evidence for the idea of russian involvement presented to the public
    What would you consider such hard evidence? The source code of the hacked government databases and the access logs as .txt files? Or maybe a tortured Russian who claims he did it?

    I get that the CIA can't always be trusted, but I don't think they can do much with this considering that opinions on Russia are mostly set and they can hardly be aiming for an invasion either. So why would they lie about it considering their future boss is probably not amused about them saying it? They didn't ask for a re-election AFAIK, they merely said it should be considered for future elections.

    Maybe you want to explain how one runs a sex trafficking ring out of a nonexistant cellar?


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  8. #38
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...to-elect-trump

    You think that unlikely do you. The CIA consists of one part that gathers and annualises data but never reveals what it knows or how it knows it. Other parts are dedicated to misinformation, propaganda, and swaying public opinion. They are always ready to interject into politics, foreign or domestic.
    to paraphrase a past director; When everything people believe is a lie, we will have done our job.


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  9. #39
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    You think that unlikely do you. The CIA consists of one part that gathers and annualises data but never reveals what it knows or how it knows it. Other parts are dedicated to misinformation, propaganda, and swaying public opinion. They are always ready to interject into politics, foreign or domestic.
    to paraphrase a past director; When everything people believe is a lie, we will have done our job.
    And you think it is unlikely that a nation that fakes its own elections, has ground down all political opposition, silenced all opposing media and is known to have heavily invested in IT education and knowledge would try to influence the elections of a rivalling, stronger nation in favor of a candidate who wants to abandon a lot of allies of the stronger nation which the first nation may want as convenient satellites or new territories?

    I really can't see the motive either.
    As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
    To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.


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  10. #40
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And you think it is unlikely that a nation that fakes its own elections, has ground down all political opposition, silenced all opposing media and is known to have heavily invested in IT education and knowledge would try to influence the elections of a rivalling, stronger nation in favor of a candidate who wants to abandon a lot of allies of the stronger nation which the first nation may want as convenient satellites or new territories?

    I really can't see the motive either.
    As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
    To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.
    You mean those videos starring George Galloway that Greyblades posts?

  11. #41
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post

    I really can't see the motive either.
    As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
    To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.
    I would argue that Russian Propaganda is better propaganda than American Propaganda. Because good propaganda has to build on its elements of truth. That coming from most of the US outlets relies much too much on peoples desire to just believe the big lie told often enough.

    Take for instance the Washington Post's recent articles on Fake News. The rely entirely on anonymous sources or shadowy groups as proof of Russian involvement. With no way to vet the information you are forced to either believe them or reject the proposition as unprovable.
    It is not to say that Russia would not have cause to seek influence but it just an emotional appeal or appeal to authority at best.

    Trust in American Media is at a low ebb. Fake News is also a driving factor behind a move to censor media not in the hands of the Corporate Established Order. There is absolutely no reason to trust them any more than there is reason to trust the Russians.

    At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.


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  12. #42
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.
    What does giving them a pass mean though? If I don't give them a pass, the same thing will happen than if I don't, nothing.
    That was what I meant by lack of motive, people who love Russia will think it is a lie and those who don't can just go on as well.
    If the CIA made up such a thing in order to put Russia in a worse position, it seems like a big failure either way.

    If your argument is that we should not be vigilant regarding Russian attempts at manipulation of any kind when the next round of European elections come around, I'd say that's a dangerous idea. If you think about it, what happens if Trump withdraws his NATO support for most or all Euro countries and then the EU falls apart with loads of bad blood? We certainly saw what happened in Ukraine when there was internal turmoil. Maybe we'd just say goodbye to the Baltic states or so at first...


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  13. #43
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    I would argue that Russian Propaganda is better propaganda than American Propaganda. Because good propaganda has to build on its elements of truth. That coming from most of the US outlets relies much too much on peoples desire to just believe the big lie told often enough.

    Take for instance the Washington Post's recent articles on Fake News. The rely entirely on anonymous sources or shadowy groups as proof of Russian involvement. With no way to vet the information you are forced to either believe them or reject the proposition as unprovable.
    It is not to say that Russia would not have cause to seek influence but it just an emotional appeal or appeal to authority at best.

    Trust in American Media is at a low ebb. Fake News is also a driving factor behind a move to censor media not in the hands of the Corporate Established Order. There is absolutely no reason to trust them any more than there is reason to trust the Russians.

    At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.
    The US may have had less of a problem with Russian agents in the past due to both geographical distance and political distance, but the Euros have had their experiences. Britain is less leftward-leaning than most European countries, yet we've had our problems, as I've linked above. The kind of evidence that eventually exposed them would probably not pass the muster of the standards you demand, yet history has no doubt that they were indeed Soviet spies.

    Never ever trust Russian propaganda more than the messages given by your own outlets. Your media may be misguided, but they won't, as a general rule, deliberately work to harm you. Russian media has that as its basic purpose. If the Russians tell you something unknown, investigate further, but never accept their conclusions. Always ask why they're saying something.

  14. #44
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    The blaming of Russia for the hacked emails is more excuse than anything else. The DNC emails were insider leaks. Pedesta’s emails were the result of him losing his smartphone. Where Russia may play a part is in Hillary’s Private Server. The unsecured server containing highly classified information and the revelations of the Pay for Play. It was hacked several times and not just by one party. If anything should have influenced the election it was Hillary’s own stupidity and obvious lies to cover it up.

    The emails were not that critical in deciding the election. Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

    Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

    People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
    People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
    There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

    The controversy now rests on the deep state trying to regain control of the narrative. Russia is the traditional boogieman. If it were only Anonymous Hackers they lose the moral high ground.

    As to my remarks on propaganda, it was only a quality judgment. Propaganda is ubiquitous. Every government, organisation, and corporate interest wants to tell you what to think and none of them want you to exercise critical thinking. Choosing to believe one set of propaganda over another is just lazy and stupid. None of it is in your personal interest. It is far more likely to do harm than good.

    Belief is accepting someones word for it. I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.


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  15. #45
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Belief is accepting someones word for it.
    Shall we practice the said approach for the following claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

    Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

    People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
    People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
    There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

  16. #46
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    The blaming of Russia for the hacked emails is more excuse than anything else. The DNC emails were insider leaks. Pedesta’s emails were the result of him losing his smartphone. Where Russia may play a part is in Hillary’s Private Server. The unsecured server containing highly classified information and the revelations of the Pay for Play. It was hacked several times and not just by one party. If anything should have influenced the election it was Hillary’s own stupidity and obvious lies to cover it up.

    The emails were not that critical in deciding the election. Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

    Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

    People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
    People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
    There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

    The controversy now rests on the deep state trying to regain control of the narrative. Russia is the traditional boogieman. If it were only Anonymous Hackers they lose the moral high ground.

    As to my remarks on propaganda, it was only a quality judgment. Propaganda is ubiquitous. Every government, organisation, and corporate interest wants to tell you what to think and none of them want you to exercise critical thinking. Choosing to believe one set of propaganda over another is just lazy and stupid. None of it is in your personal interest. It is far more likely to do harm than good.

    Belief is accepting someones word for it. I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.
    Whatever your own suspicions about your own government, and I suspect that Americans can afford to be blase about the Russian threat as the Soviets never really infiltrated them, I am utterly confident that the Russians have no well meaning for us, having both read up on our secret agencies during WWII and noting that many of the most influential figures were Soviet agents, and having been part of the British Left that has long resisted the infiltration of Russian influence (and ultimately failed). I don't know if my own government means well for me, but I certainly know that the Russians don't.

  17. #47
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Shall we practice the said approach for the following claims?
    You are free to research it for your self and draw your own conclusions.


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  18. #48
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking
    I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.
    This approach is unreflective, emollient, and invariably fails itself.
    Vitiate Man.

  19. #49
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This approach is unreflective, emollient, and invariably fails itself.
    hum, you seem to be missing something. Try harder. ;)


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  20. #50
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Oh, how badly our mainstays flail when the illusion of consensus crumbles.

    In other news the FBI refused to blindly support CIA's conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    The disagreement between some Republicans and Democrats on Russia's intentions in hacking the election rests partially on the lack of agreement between intelligence agencies and the FBI about the conclusiveness of the evidence, officials explained this weekend.

    The US intelligence community is increasingly confident that Russian meddling in the American election was intended to steer the election toward Donald Trump, multiple sources have said. That revelation, first reported by CNN a week ago, went beyond the October statement by the 17 intelligence agencies that only said that Russia was seeking to undermine the election, but did not go as far as to say it was to benefit Trump.

    The New York Times reported this weekend that part of the reason for the change is that the CIA believes the Russians hacked not only Democratic organizations but Republican groups too, but that they only published documents from Democrats.

    The FBI hasn't concluded that the RNC itself was directly breached, a law enforcement official said Sunday. FBI investigators did find that a breach of a third-party entity that held data belonging to the RNC. But the data appears to have been outdated and of little value to the hackers. The FBI also found that some conservative groups and pundits were hacked. The FBI also hasn't found conclusive evidence to show that it was done to help Trump.

    "At this point, there appears to have been a combination of motivations," one US law enforcement official said. "They wanted to sow discord and undermine our systems. It's clear not even the Russians thought he would win."

    Officials familiar with the briefings given to Congress say the CIA assessment wasn't as definitive as has been portrayed in news reports this weekend. The agency developed new information in recent weeks, based on intelligence sources, which prompted a new assessment of the Russian hack. That assessment "leans" toward the view that the Russians were trying to hurt Clinton and help Trump. But the CIA assessment wasn't definitive, the officials said.

    Part of the issue is the nature of the CIA and FBI roles in the investigation. The CIA produces raw intelligence, the FBI moves more slowly to reach conclusions based on the intelligence and other investigative work.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 12-12-2016 at 16:43.
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    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  21. #51
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    hum, you seem to be missing something. Try harder. ;)
    If you believe truth can be found by contravening or even ignoring The Authority, then you will satisfy yourself with only the most limited imaginings.
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  22. #52
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If you believe truth can be found by contravening or even ignoring The Authority, then you will satisfy yourself with only the most limited imaginings.
    I said knowledge. You assumed Truth. Authority does not equal truth either. It is usually a self justified conclusion by those who assume it.

    I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.


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  23. #53
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.
    Alright, let's think about that. How do you evaluate on purely personal grounds that you are making an informed decision, that your information is the best available, or that you are competent to approach it? Moreover, how can you do this in generalized opposition to or mistrust of others and of groups? How do you justify a claim to knowledge in that light?
    Vitiate Man.

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  24. #54
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Alright, let's think about that. How do you evaluate on purely personal grounds that you are making an informed decision, that your information is the best available, or that you are competent to approach it? Moreover, how can you do this in generalized opposition to or mistrust of others and of groups? How do you justify a claim to knowledge in that light?
    Using classical methods. Logic, reasoning, dialectic, and a good grasp on rhetoric. Consulting primary sources when possible. Research and objective analysis.


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  25. #55
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    But that's just a gloze. Taking yourself for granted is no different than taking "propaganda" for granted.
    Vitiate Man.

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  26. #56
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But that's just a gloze. Taking yourself for granted is no different than taking "propaganda" for granted.
    Certainly questioning others may be a good way to learn but it gives now weight at all to you opinions.


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  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Certainly questioning others may be a good way to learn but it gives now weight at all to you opinions.
    This is one aspect of my complaint against the notion that one should or can take confidence in their own thought as independent from individuals or institutions - yet I suspect you aren't expressing your agreement.
    Vitiate Man.

  28. #58
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This is one aspect of my complaint against the notion that one should or can take confidence in their own thought as independent from individuals or institutions - yet I suspect you aren't expressing your agreement.
    We are rather far off topic but I am aware of your view that everyone is a meat puppet operating on hormones and cosmic rays, or what ever. It seems a convenient excuse to disregard serious thought or contemplation and to excuse ones wrong choices. Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.


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  29. #59
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.
    That's not what I was talking about. Whether true or untrue the problem I raised remains on how to avoid undermining your asserted moral autonomy through contradictions.
    Vitiate Man.

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  30. #60
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loose Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That's not what I was talking about. Whether true or untrue the problem I raised remains on how to avoid undermining your asserted moral autonomy through contradictions.
    Moral Philosophy, uh, I was sick that day. I never let it bother me.


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