Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh, after finishing Cereal Killers on MU and seeing that setup, I felt great shame at all the complaining I did about this one. At least this one resembled mafia.

I saw over Sooh's shoulder how that game setup looked.

The following presentation is a moment of silence for the part of me that died.



































































.

[Dp101]

Hey, at least the host was nice and I enjoyed it. Insanity is fun every once in a while, although I think it should have been advertised as such.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey, at least the host was nice and I enjoyed it. Insanity is fun every once in a while, although I think it should have been advertised as such.

I have nothing but respect for the game host himself, I should have made that clearer but it was funnier how I posted it.

I remember one time on the discord we were talking about hosting a mafia game with all of the elements in it that had made us angry over the years, and that particular setup had at least four or five of the things you should never have in a game setup in it.

You learn that from experience. Sometimes it's a painful one.

I think we should try the all jesters game where the jesters are the town and the mafia will be able to resurrect townies. It will be a blast.

And the mafia will be recruitable but they won't win with the cult even after having been cult and helped cult win.

That latter one might have been a real game I'm still angry at like 7 years later. Replace might with is, and you've got it perfectly.

[Jabbz]

I'll seriously open sign-ups for it right now if there's interest for it. I did enough to ruin the mood of this one, I want to host one where I can do the opposite.

@Jabbz

You too man. I'm not always a mean asshole like I was here, and you were 100% correct to call me out the way you did. Hopefully you can see my better side sometime.

It's all good man. I don't do grudges. Maybe next time things will play out differently.

[Zack]

I think we should try the all jesters game

that was like the third game I hosted

[Zack]

It's all good man. I don't do grudges. Maybe next time things will play out differently.

[Winston Hughes]

I swear, half the reason I suspected Zack in the first place is because I expected him to like Jabbz.

[Zack]

I swear, half the reason I suspected Zack in the first place is because I expected him to like Jabbz.

When do I like people who vote me? As any alignment?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I swear, half the reason I suspected Zack in the first place is because I expected him to like Jabbz.

...He's a good kid.






That's all the time we have. Join us next week with our guest.... ALBERT EINSTEIN!!!

What?

Well apparently Albert Einstein died 62 years ago. You know what, we'll try to get him anyway. See you next time! Cubs win! Cubs win!

[Winston Hughes]

When do I like people who vote me? As any alignment?

Yeah, it was one of those dumb D1 reasons that you know is built out of shit, but it sticks around in the back of your head anyway.

[Cass_]

Thanks everyone for having me along this game Please never have me as Chancellor again!!

Game setup .... I'm still wracking my brains trying to come up with the ultimate way to order votes and things to make all player votes count more??? It was really frustrating for me to watch people get despondent/feel like they didn't count, and to know that scum would be able to use the setup to hide votes whenever/wherever they wished. In the end I went with my vote at EoD being my own and tie-breakers should be majority vote unless I had a rampant scum lean to the contrary?

I would have liked the Chancellor role to have included an option to step down at points rather than being chained to the position for life. Perhaps at the start of days, decision to be submitted overnight?

I think another scum might be a good addition, the mafia team may have been in even more trouble had we not lost our Watcher N1?

As always, ATPG flavour = <3. Even if he was totally cloaked and twisting strings to keep things according to plan from behind the scenes. Thanks for the game and inviting us along.

I would love to know any of the funny/positive things that were going on in the mafia QT throughout the game, and whether there was any sort of structured game-plan from that end.


Other stuff:
I generally really like the community here and I'll try and pop in for small games now and then if I have the time ... even if GH is going to hold his mislynch over my head forever and ever and evermore

Zack, amazing effort for being the last standing wolf after Chox and Barto.
@Choxorn and @El Barto, sorrynotsorry we got you so soon :P <3

To everyone else, I enjoyed playing with you and think most Townies played a pretty clear game here - sorry for the ridiculous amount of tinfoil my brain concocts, and for the incessant questioning that pumps up volume even if I want a small game >.<
@Fenn and @Schema, when it came down to deciding between you two and Al Sips on my final day, I didn't want to lynch any of you, went with Al Sips for having more votes and less content, and Schema your WIM really came out then and towards the end so <3 (also lol @Dp101 begging in the DT for me not to kill Fenn - I actually had Fenn as default but couldn't go through with it in the end, there were parts where his tone was too pure!)
@Renata, you were seriously my rock the first couple of days, I hear you on the not sustainable bit, but thanks for coming through so strongly and succinctly and for ultimately being Town :D - If you had voted Cuth over Barto D3 I think it would've broke me down.
@Montmorency It didn't stop my tinfoil that you might be puppet-master, but I'm going to agree with Pizza that your play was pretty pro-Town throughout - the logic and puzzling you put into the thread were encouraging good play and clarity - sorry I didn't ever entirely let the tinfoil go!

[Montmorency]

Wow to game.

For balance of core vote mechanic: leadership. In this game, Cass came as a dark horse townie stronger than everyone else. She made this possible, like wheels and an engine make a car possible. RNG and the player group do define more than we can grasp in the event.

More later.

[Winston Hughes]

Cass ruled town brilliantly.

Her D1 was amazingly pure, and as Chancellor she struck a perfect balance between the mob and the crown.

[Cass_]

This is for @Cuthillius , because he posted it in our first game together and it comes to mind and makes me smile every game since when I feel I'm floundering for readz:


Who's the most scummy...

[Winston Hughes]

Renata was Renata.

Gone five years, but she's still the player I'd choose to town with above any other.

Natural born scumhunter.

[Zack]

I would love to know any of the funny/positive things that were going on in the mafia QT throughout the game

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My claim to have forgotten the game started was honestly totally accurate- I legit did make that post at the start, go do something else, completely forget about the game, and not remember until well into the following day

sooh didn't claim anything specific i don't think

i sort of suspect she didn't specify because she's 1-time bulletproof or something

(el barto then informs me sooh hardclaimed watcher... lol)

i also think we need an extension because it's kinda important to see who is lynched. and also as choxorn said it wouldn't be fair to town PRs otherwise.

though maybe they deserve it for electing an australian who is never going to be around for eod as chancellor.

I really think that your dying breath should be used to curse Zoidberg.

Foolish townies. You think there was some meaning or spews behind my posts, when in reality I was totally winging it and had no idea what I was doing.

Just roleclaim a 400-foot-tall purple platypus bear with pink horns and silver wings, see how they react to that.

Or maybe Melon Lord. Or Wang Fire.

---

after gh's lynch

GH was lynched, both of you are still alive.

What lol

what lol indeed

poor cass gonna be devastated in postgame...

I don't understand why she keeps voting tak then breaking the tie favor of someone else

Basically: Cass voted El Barto to distance on day 1 and it backfired horribly, and now she's continuing to do it to avoid arousing suspicion.

What's your real opinion on Barto, Cass? Huh?

‘He's devilishly handsome’.

---

Conspiracy theory launched.

P.S. do not forget to react to my lame joke about EoD

---

after barto's lynch:

Pretty sure my tally is right, it matched Monty's all round and I've been tracking all the vote movements as they happened, but let me know if you think it's wrong.

It's wrong everyone voted for cass :(

---

All you have to do is force 7 mislynches, and you can win. You can do it! I believe in you! Believe in the me who believes in you!

90% of mafia is buzzwords

i'm not really complaining, it was an opportunity for grandstanding

(laughs evilly)

---

start of last day:

Monstr is vanilla.

Lol what the fuck

now dead qt's turn?

[Cass_]

<3

Tbqf I'm always always much more a scattercat of suspicions/possibilities than any sort of leader where decisions are involved. Being in the position of Chancellor was challenging and a very different take on the game for me. I felt like the biggest puppet, especially after mislynching GH D2.

Wow to game.

For balance of core vote mechanic: leadership. In this game, Cass came as a dark horse townie stronger than everyone else. She made this possible, like wheels and an engine make a car possible. RNG and the player group do define more than we can grasp in the event.

More later.

Question is - leadership to what? The vote spread always looked extra inconclusive to me compared to a normal game, and I don't think I really managed to actually lead anything at all! I'll wait for more ...<3 Neeeeiigghhhhhmmmmppphhffff

Cass ruled town brilliantly.

Her D1 was amazingly pure, and as Chancellor she struck a perfect balance between the mob and the crown.

I appreciated how purely you came in D1 too - I'm sure you could do the same as Scum
<.<
>.>
<.<

But the systematic/succinct way you entered the thread really helped me to center/focus myself some more, so thanks!

[Montmorency]

In this game, which surpassed even that record-shattering Futuramafia for its activity ere the TKO, I seemed to return to my dusty '12/13-era "ride the line" strategy, or, as Fenn described it, "trying to straddle the line between too towny too live and too scummy not to lynch." Some of my great performances are associated with this style. Usually, it results in epic fail. This game, it was mediocre at best in result for the team. After D1 Zack basically hovered around null for the game, and that's not so bad (though he really was too soft toward me), but I failed brutally in identifying what almost everyone else quickly noticed in Choxorn and Barto. The only paltry personal successes for my scumdar, at least, were identifying town meta from atheotes and Riedquat - but the former showed it to the town at large fairly soon after and the latter...

I mean, I feel like I had more fun here than some, but I definitely did not play well.
@Visor: Well, I felt better about you D2 once I thought on your wider style, but by D4 three remaining Mafia just didn't make sense without you as their deepwolf scumlord. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@Fenn: You never tunneled me, rather the opposite. In fact, that was one of the worrying things, how reserved you were around your analyses. You should have been close to Riedquat-lean honestly, but I had one of my notorious hunches over Csargo and of course that just simmered. Would like to play with you and Al Sipsclar (because you seem like you would fit well together) in the next game.
@Renata: I'm glad you were rocking out as town, because while you were alive I always felt self-conscious that my rampant screwiness should have you screaming townreads on me.
@Monstrbro: Too pure to be possible. Scared to see you scum. I hope you play again. Avalanche-posting somehow worked in this game, though it strikes me as sacrilegious in the Org culture I wax conservative on.
@imdone: Good performance. From my perspective, final scum being outed by fake peek has a certain poetic hilarity to it. Also, pseudonyms and name changes are so 2012. One thing though, why did you kill Jabbz N4 rather than Monstr or atheotes? I think I even had that big analysis post for potential killers that ruled you out because you wouldn't do it just out of spite!


Some thoughts on mechanics reprised from D1 or 2:

I thought you, Pizza would shift in the direction of 5 scum (though I personally, with my pro-town bias, would have made it 3) if anything then because of the number of potential lynches in the game (10), but also because of the fragility of the district mechanic, as below.

Assuming a long game of 10 lynches (i.e. 1-kill-1-lynch per round), then there would have been only 21/19/17/15/13/11/9 = 7 days of district voting, and only a handful of days for which 5 districts would have been possible. Overall, we need to think of ways to elaborate the district mechanics because here they were something of an afterthought. Reps need to have more power, unique power relating to the mechanic of the office rather than the typical sort of powers or abilities, and the Chancellor should have more power with respect to the Reps, and the Reps with respect to other Reps. Maybe "options" would be a better word to use, both to enhance possibilities of gameplay and for the sake of the political theme. We need to think of a way to to this that preserves the fundamental character of multi-leader election without relying on huge numbers of players to shore up the system (though that would be fun too). I might have specific ideas to present later on. Broadly, private comms between Reps was one change I raised earlier.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I feel like this game has a few similarities with Pirate Ship Mafia, strangely enough. Mostly this comes down to the leadership structure - in theory, a fun addition, but in practice, if uninfiltrated town can claim every slot and manage to get entrenched, it can be awful hard for mafia to do anything about it. Giving the reps/chancellor no immunity from the nightkills whatsoever was a good counter to this, but the problem was that the town was so on point this game that Zack et al were never going to escape the PoE no matter how strong their kill choices were.

I feel like the mechanics could use tweaking, but they were not the reason why this game was a town roflstomp.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Oh, and since the town dead QT isn't getting revealed, let me just quote one relevant section of it:

Cass's stated rationale for lynching me makes sense. I don't think she's played with me enough to be aware that I intentionally change my playstyle up every so often just for the hell of it.

Speaking of which, for people who read this in the future: I INTENTIONALLY CHANGE MY PLAYSTYLE UP EVERY SO OFTEN JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. :P

[Dp101]

Huh, actually, since this game was technically a town win, I am now 1-4 as VT rather than 0-4! I actually won as town! I didn't think it was possible.

[Montmorency]

Huh, actually, since this game was technically a town win, I am now 1-4 as VT rather than 0-4! I actually won as town! I didn't think it was possible.

You work great as The Stalwart.

[Renata]

@Cass_ You don't even want to know how close I came to voting Cuth a couple times on day three. He had so many townie moments, but I was never confident.

I hope this doesn't push the lines of discussion too much, but I thought my comment on Monstr's cop claim might be funny:

Pizza game plus full cop PLUS watcher? Pls

I was thinking maybe just maybe you had a one-shot or a mixed JOAT type role. But the retraction didn't surprise me at all. And I'm normally pretty gullible in that way.

But that reminds me I didn't comment on the town setup before. I think it was fine. With the loss of our watcher on night one we were basically playing a vanilla game -- like GH said, 100% intuition. And that is HARD, knowing you're flying by the seat of your pants until you die and you will never get the kind of mental break or certainty that power roles can provide. (I mean, even bsmith could have been a mafia vig -- there was one last game -- but he played it well.) But that's what mafia is all about. So I regretted Sooh dying but didn't regret that there was no other role to back her up. Watcher is plenty strong enough.

[Renata]

Huh, actually, since this game was technically a town win, I am now 1-4 as VT rather than 0-4! I actually won as town! I didn't think it was possible.

Woo!

[Cass_]

Quote Originally Posted by Zack
"though maybe they deserve it for electing an australian who is never going to be around for eod as chancellor."

Quote Originally Posted by Takhisis
"I really think that your dying breath should be used to curse Zoidberg."

Quote Originally Posted by choxorn
"Foolish townies. You think there was some meaning or spews behind my posts, when in reality I was totally winging it and had no idea what I was doing."

Quote Originally Posted by choxorn
"Just roleclaim a 400-foot-tall purple platypus bear with pink horns and silver wings, see how they react to that.

Or maybe Melon Lord. Or Wang Fire."

Quote Originally Posted by choxorn
What's your real opinion on Barto, Cass? Huh?

Quote Originally Posted by Barto
‘He's devilishly handsome’.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________

Actual LOL for all of these <3

Also. Totally made the EoDs , though you people are all still freaking crazy for putting me in that position :P





Quote Originally Posted by Pizza
GH was lynched, both of you are still alive.________________

Quote Originally Posted by Zack
What lol__________________________________________

Quote Originally Posted by Pizza
what lol indeed

poor cass gonna be devastated in postgame...___________


... Me & Pizza on Skype at that point:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Me:
oooooooonooooooo
Guess I'm living to resign and be stoned for a bit tomorrow... oh yey :|

Pizza:
*Hug* ... the burdens of the crown

Me:
Glad to give them up if I can't make the right calls. This will be SO BAD for Town if Barto is actually scum

Pizza:
You can't, it's for life.

Me: it's WHAT?

Pizza: Did you see the fine print?

Me: #Details

Pizza: You're Chancellor for life

Me: OhLight
they're even crazier than I thought!

Later:
*Cass rocks in corner*

Quote Originally Posted by Zack
"I don't understand why she keeps voting tak then breaking the tie favor of someone else"__

Because <.< lackofselfconfidenceandultimatetinfoilonGH.gif ?

I had Barto as default, but then decided there was still a chance he was Town like in Rappers v. the differences I saw in GH's play. ... I actually submitted my decision with a caveat that Pizza had to kill Barto over GH if Barto was actually scum , but the dude in the cloak specifically told me 'no stipulations, just decisions, madam'


Quote Originally Posted by Zack
"Conspiracy theory launched."_____________

H8U/dont-h8-u +
*Insert @dicetosser1 tunneling on me here* :D <3



DT stuff if Pizza oks it :)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I feel like the mechanics could use tweaking, but they were not the reason why this game was a town roflstomp.

Mafia is an unsymmetrical game, where if town guesses correctly, there's nothing the mafia can do to stop the win.

It's like the mafia are in a mate-in-three situation or fewer at all times from the game start. it's up to town to see the mate, if they can't, they will eventually lose the game.

Mafia should never feel bad about a loss to town. It literally is the town's game to win. You play the role of the villains, you steal victory from the town's grasp only.

[Montmorency]

Of course, don't fail to mention Pizza's neato writeups and how much flesh they built around the persona of Supreme Chancellor Cass.

[Cass_]

@Cass_ You don't even want to know how close I came to voting Cuth a couple times on day three. He had so many townie moments, but I was never confident.

Haha! You didn't though! And tbh I was more confident to start with than I was by D3... part of the reason I wanted you or Monstr to have at it I wouldn't have voted him over Barto, but if you'd voted him and he'd flipped Town I would probably have tinfoiled on you endlessly until you flipped... even though he may have been a possibility for me D4 >.< . I gotta work on that.
@Monstrbro sticking to his guns there was GOAT.

[Renata]

@Montmorency I did read you as town early for your screwiness! But then certain parties talked me out of it by bringing up your meta. Meta schmeta. :lol:

Later I was torn between what seemed a transparently towny, high-effort process -- also very different from last game -- and less than impressive actual results. (Even after I died your reads were very different from mine.) I guess in the end you did a good job of walking that line. I was almost relieved to catch you in that one omission I voted you for; I was thinking, if he's pulling the wool over my eyes again at least this time I voted him once.

You're a formidable player.

[dicetosser1]

[MENTION=100481]


I was pleasantly surprised by all of you. When we invite new people to the org, it's typically a crapshoot of folks who don't even bother to post.

On an unfamiliar forum with lots of people you didn't know, you showed up and all played very well. Many of you self-clearing, many of you finding scums, all of you interacting, giving reads, and being not a total dead zone where no one has a chance to read. You guys all have a lot to be proud of about your town game.

I really appreciate you coming and playing with us on the org. If you care to be mentioned for upcoming games in sign-ups, let us know. We'd all love it if you were to stick around.

it was no problem tho FTR if you EVER tell me its gonna be a low volume game again im gonna laff in your face. :D

mention me for games I just gotta remember to come here sometimes.


Game critique yes needed more scum.

Needed more VCs by the mod. That is something that frustrates me in general. I want vcs from the mod for 2 reasons 1 so I know where things stand (especially when I wake up to 20 pages more) and 2 so I KNOW its correct. its awesome that players are willing to make the effort but I want the mods cause as part of their job they will make SURE theres no mistakes AND you cant mistake it when someone is actually doing VC analysis not giving a current vc.

Voting. This was my biggest bugbear. I basically spent the game feeling like my vote, my only power, meant nothing. And it was frustrating as.

Game suggestion. We played a game recently on DM where at night everyone went into a QT they had chosen. there you continued playing. Id suggest night QTs by district with the reps and chancellor voting at the end of the night after discussion with their district

People were suspecting me for the wrong reasons, Winston. Am I supposed to just... let that slide?

Reasons don't always have anything to do with it. Im a gut reader and a tone reader. I often don't have a reason for my read. Doesn't mean they are wrong.
In fact my gut reads are much better then my thought out logical ones.

re fake peek im gonna tap dance on the line here. Ive been fake peeked by obvious scum late game and blew my lid at him. The WAY I blew up should have clearly told people I was town. I think you did the right thing in attacking the claim. I just think watch what you say when you do that. which is harder as scum as you don't actually have the moral righteous anger that I did as town.

Oh, and since the town dead QT isn't getting revealed, let me just quote one relevant section of it:

why is it not being revealed?
and do we get the mafia qt?