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Thread: French Presidential Election

  1. #361
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    All Ospey -Men at Arms series about Foreign Volunteers and Waffen SS would be a good start.
    https://ospreypublishing.com/store/m...ks/men-at-arms
    As I said, forming ETHNIC units was a tradition long before nazis. You claimed nazis divided units by RELIGION, that is among Nazi troops there should have been 1st Catholic Panzer battalion, 3rd Protestant Luftwaffe squadron, 45th Orthodox Waffen SS division, 34th Islamic Marine regiment, etc. Were there any?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  2. #362
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    As I said, forming ETHNIC units was a tradition long before nazis. You claimed nazis divided units by RELIGION, that is among Nazi troops there should have been 1st Catholic Panzer battalion, 3rd Protestant Luftwaffe squadron, 45th Orthodox Waffen SS division, 34th Islamic Marine regiment, etc. Were there any?
    Just do your research...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  3. #363
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Just do your research...
    To draw a line:
    1) contrary to your claims there were no Nazi units divided according to the religion;
    2) having ethnic units was a practice started long before Nazis, so there is no call to associate it with a Nazi one;
    3) the existence of a Jewish unit within Right Sector doesn't prove its being Nazi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  4. #364
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Last edited by Brenus; 06-21-2017 at 19:34.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  5. #365
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    You mean like Click image for larger version. 

Name:	51FejehdBiL._AC_UL320_SR234,320_.jpg 
Views:	58 
Size:	30.1 KB 
ID:	19714?
    I don't understand why I must do MY research to sustain YOUR claim. Judging from what you linked, it is still unsustained on the two points I mentioned:
    1. Existence of Nazi units based on the RELIGION (not on the ethnicity) of the members.
    2. Having ethnic units was a practice started by Nazis or employed exclusively by Nazis.
    You failed to prove either.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-22-2017 at 14:13.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  6. #366
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    You definitely didn't do your research... Not that I am really surprise. Clue : The SS Handzar is Muslim...
    Ethnicity of Handzar divison, Yugoslav...
    See, 2 birds in one stone...
    Btw, even the book YOU show prove the Legion is not based on ethnicity...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  7. #367
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    You definitely didn't do your research... Not that I am really surprise. Clue : The SS Handzar is Muslim...
    Ethnicity of Handzar divison, Yugoslav...
    See, 2 birds in one stone...
    Really?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_W...(1st_Croatian)

    Composed of Bosnian Muslims (ethnic Bosniaks) with some Catholic Croat soldiers and mostly German and Yugoslav Volksdeutsche (ethnic German) officers and non-commissioned officers, it took an oath of allegiance to both Adolf Hitler and the Croatian leader Ante Pavelić.

    Muslim, you say...
    Carry on with weasling out attempts.
    BTW, perhaps Sarmatian will explain to you that Yugoslav is not an ethnicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Btw, even the book YOU show prove the Legion is not based on ethnicity...
    Did you read it?
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-23-2017 at 12:18.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  8. #368
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. Religion was often an afterthought for them or something they used to further their goals. Their propaganda rarely seems to have touched on the religious side of the jews, mostly on ethnic and other "differences". They only arranged themselves with the Christian churches since it seemed necessary to keep the support of the population, AFAIK they had no further interest in it beyond that. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  9. #369
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps.
    As you may have noticed, Brenus failed to produce any evidence to support his claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  10. #370
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Really?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_W...(1st_Croatian)

    Composed of Bosnian Muslims (ethnic Bosniaks) with some Catholic Croat soldiers and mostly German and Yugoslav Volksdeutsche (ethnic German) officers and non-commissioned officers, it took an oath of allegiance to both Adolf Hitler and the Croatian leader Ante Pavelić.
    Muslim, you say...
    Yeap, that is why it better to read specialised books than wiki

    The Volkdeutche were incorporated in the Heer or the SS btw.
    The uncle of an Alsatian friend was in 1 SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler because he was tall enough to do so. And to be sure that him or his friends didn't escape, the Nazi build the Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp in France.

    Handzar and Kama were form of Muslim. Do you really think Catholic Croats would have wear the Muslin Fez? Just look at the pictures, not a big deal...
    Last edited by Brenus; 06-23-2017 at 21:42.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  11. #371
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. Religion was often an afterthought for them or something they used to further their goals. Their propaganda rarely seems to have touched on the religious side of the jews, mostly on ethnic and other "differences". They only arranged themselves with the Christian churches since it seemed necessary to keep the support of the population, AFAIK they had no further interest in it beyond that. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps.
    One is not opposed to the other...
    Himmler was fascinated by Religions. Hitler was indifferent. But he received the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on the insistence of Himmler, who himself wanted to create Mulsim Units, therefore the Hanzar and the Kama, but as well the Skandenberg for Albanian.
    Remember that Serbs, Croats and Muslim speak the same language... So the choice to create a Serbian (Orthodox) unit (White Eagle) and Muslim units and to have the regular Croatian Army (plus Ustase) was not based on ethnicity, but on religions.

    Detail: The last unit which try to take the Tractor factory (I think) in Stalingrad was a Croatian Unit.
    Last edited by Brenus; 06-23-2017 at 21:47.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  12. #372
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    The Volkdeutche were incorporated in the Heer or the SS btw.
    The uncle of an Alsatian friend was in 1 SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler because he was tall enough to do so. And to be sure that him or his friends didn't escape, the Nazi build the Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp in France.
    I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Handzar and Kama were form of Muslim. Do you really think Catholic Croats would have wear the Muslin Fez? Just look at the pictures, not a big deal...
    Who said that guys on the pictures were Croats? As the wiki (which you despise so much) claims, there were people of differet confessions in the unit in question. I have no doubt that the ones in the picture were Muslims. BUT! There were people of OTHER confessions within it. Which rules out religious foundations of the said unit. I would rather say that they were united in it because they were all citizens of Yugoslavia before the war so they could easily understand each other, cooperate with each other and be commanded by people who spoke their language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Himmler was fascinated by Religions.
    According to your logics, if Nazis had ethnic units then any other armies who have/had such units must be Nazi ones. Then all people fascinated by religions must be Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Hitler was indifferent. But he received the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on the insistence of Himmler, who himself wanted to create Mulsim Units, therefore the Hanzar and the Kama, but as well the Skandenberg for Albanian.
    Trying to create is not the same as creating. And Albanian is ethnicity, not a religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Remember that Serbs, Croats and Muslim speak the same language... So the choice to create a Serbian (Orthodox) unit (White Eagle) and Muslim units and to have the regular Croatian Army (plus Ustase) was not based on ethnicity, but on religions.
    It was based on the same language as you have correctly observed, since religions were different, and the language was common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Detail: The last unit which try to take the Tractor factory (I think) in Stalingrad was a Croatian Unit.
    Again an indication of ETHNICALLY based units which has nothing to do with religion.

    Generally, I don't understand your obsession with ethnic composition of some Nazi units. This practice existed long before nazis and exists now. Why, even the so beloved by you Soviets had such units:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia...tvian_Riflemen
    So the Soviets were Nazis?
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-24-2017 at 11:33.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  13. #373

    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.


    Who said that guys on the pictures were Croats? As the wiki (which you despise so much) claims, there were people of differet confessions in the unit in question. I have no doubt that the ones in the picture were Muslims. BUT! There were people of OTHER confessions within it. Which rules out religious foundations of the said unit. I would rather say that they were united in it because they were all citizens of Yugoslavia before the war so they could easily understand each other, cooperate with each other and be commanded by people who spoke their language.


    According to your logics, if Nazis had ethnic units then any other armies who have/had such units must be Nazi ones. Then all people fascinated by religions must be Nazis?


    Trying to create is not the same as creating. And Albanian is ethnicity, not a religion.


    It was based on the same language as you have correctly observed, since religions were different, and the language was common.


    Again an indication of ETHNICALLY based units which has nothing to do with religion.

    Generally, I don't understand your obsession with ethnic composition of some Nazi units. This practice existed long before nazis and exists now. Why, even the so beloved by you Soviets had such units:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia...tvian_Riflemen
    So the Soviets were Nazis?
    Don't also conflate the issues: Soviet units were designated according to republic(s) of origin or formation, more like the United States National Guard in concept than the SS conglomerations. They had some ethnic units, especially of non-Slavs (outside Central Asia) or non-Soviet Slavs, but the main structure followed a different principle.

    What we should conclude is that while it's not strictly incorrect to say the SS formed units along religious lines, this is misleading in the context of the well-known SS policy of forming units around perceived national origin or identity, and how exactly this would go on to be adapted both to real circumstances in Eastern Europe and to people whom the Nazis thought of as "less European". Sometimes these unit constituents overlapped heavily with religion because sometimes ethnicity and religion overlap heavily in general.

    In the context of contemporary Ukraine or whatever, you two should probably be debating the more relevant point of the motivations and reasoning involved in agglomerating non-mainstream citizens into special formations, or at least distinct ones, as opposed to distributing them throughout the larger military apparatus as with the main body of recruits.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-24-2017 at 17:32.
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  14. #374
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Don't also conflate the issues: Soviet units were designated according to republic(s) of origin or formation, more like the United States National Guard in concept than the SS conglomerations. They had some ethnic units, especially of non-Slavs (outside Central Asia) or non-Soviet Slavs, but the main structure followed a different principle.
    OMG! National Guard organized along Nazi lines!

    On a serious note, I would like to see the proofs that the Soviet army units were designated according to republic of formation. In my experience, it is quite the opposite. All Soviet national policy was aimed at creating "a new national identity - a Soviet man". Consequently, all ethnic differences tended to be downplayed in favor of a common tie between all people of the USSR - their Soviet citizenship.
    In the armed forces this policy found expression in sending conscripts from different national republics to military units far away from their home and mixing them together thoroughly. The result of it was one of the two1 plagues with which the Soviet army was ridden - zemlyachestvo (a loose translation is "association of fellow countrymen"). The essence of the phenomenon is forming groups united by ethnicity or - largely - by regions. It was usually Slavs vs Caucasians vs Baltics vs Middle Asians. The groups were unfriendly (to put it mildly) to each other.
    The example of Latvian red riflemen was a relic of the Russian empire and thus isn't symptomatic of the Soviet army. Perhaps at earlier stages (say in 1917-1922) some examples of such units could be found, but by 1930s this practice was totally abandoned and when the Red army became the Soviet army it was unthinkable.


    1 The second plague being dedovshchina - humiliating treatment of juniors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Sometimes these unit constituents overlapped heavily with religion because sometimes ethnicity and religion overlap heavily in general.
    That is why one can't speak of Nazi units formed ON THE BASIS of religion. It may have been appended to ethnicity, but never the main ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In the context of contemporary Ukraine or whatever, you two should probably be debating the more relevant point of the motivations and reasoning involved in agglomerating non-mainstream citizens into special formations, or at least distinct ones, as opposed to distributing them throughout the larger military apparatus as with the main body of recruits.
    We should, but Brenus sees Nazis everywhere in Ukraine, so he tries to bring up the point whenever he notices similar practices disregarding discrepancies or logical considerations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  15. #375
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    "I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.": Because it contradicted your beloved wiki. The Volksdeutsche from Yugoslavia were integrated in German Units, as my friend's uncle had. Not in a regional "ethnic" one.
    The problem is you have not a clue of what you speak about. Nazism evaluated due the pressure of the high costs in lives on the eastern Front.
    Nazism was based on division of religion. To be a Jew is to belonged to a religion. Now, yes, the Nazi were not coherent, and if you just discovered this, well, nothing I can do. Hitler referred himself as a Christian, and explain why the Jews as murderers of the Christ had to be exterminated. Now, if you want to check this, do it yourself, I don't want cookies in my computer linked with Nazi sites. If you don't mind, do it.
    I noticed you have a very narrow kind of logic. Regarding Nazism, it doesn't work. As your Ukrainian Nazis prove it, in having a Jewish unit.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  16. #376
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.": Because it contradicted your beloved wiki. The Volksdeutsche from Yugoslavia were integrated in German Units, as my friend's uncle had. Not in a regional "ethnic" one.
    Then surely a religious one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    The problem is you have not a clue of what you speak about.
    Your usual argument when your reality checks fail you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Nazism was based on division of religion. To be a Jew is to belonged to a religion. Now, yes, the Nazi were not coherent, and if you just discovered this, well, nothing I can do. Hitler referred himself as a Christian, and explain why the Jews as murderers of the Christ had to be exterminated.
    I expect all this to be true. But it has nothing to do with "religion based units" of the Nazis which you never proved to have existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    I don't want cookies in my computer linked with Nazi sites.
    I expect you cleanse the history of your recent internet connections if they contain the word "nazi". I wonder how you keep these four letters on your keyboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    I noticed you have a very narrow kind of logic.Regarding Nazism, it doesn't work.
    If the event doesn't fit into your picture of the world you just brush it aside? Logic can't work piecemeal. It is universal. So if it works in other cases, it must do in the issue in question as well. Can you imagine racist owners forming an NBA team exclusively of black players? If the owners are like that they are consistent in their drafting policies (you may read on Lazio - a football team from Italy).

    And, judging from what you have said regarding nazi sites, your logic is at least not broader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    As your Ukrainian Nazis prove it, in having a Jewish unit.
    ... and building a synagogue and being financed by the head jew of Ukraine - Kolomoisky. How cunning Ukrainian nazis are. Perhaps they are nazi jews? Russian media have invented a name for such people - Banderite kikes.

    To sum up another discussion of ours:

    You failed to prove your point, so you resorted to your usual tactics of playing the man not the ball. But "having no clue" and "narrow logic" can't win you an argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  17. #377

    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    1. Cutting number of legislators; 2. EU comments, proportional representation, and ending the state of emergency; 3. Opposition; 4. Self-presentation and leadership style/philosophy

    Org commentary?

    Macron seeks to cut number of France MPs by a third

    The French president says he has a broad mandate after sweeping wins in presidential and parliamentary elections this year.
    If his proposed changes were not passed by parliament within a year, he said he would take the decision to a referendum.
    In his 90-minute speech, the 39-year-old leader vowed to return a "collective dignity" to France.
    "In the past, procedures have taken preference over results, rules over initiative, living off the public purse over fairness," he said.
    The proposed cuts would reduce the number of National Assembly members from 577 to 385, and the numbers of Senate members from 348 to 232.

    He also said:
    • The European Union had "lost its way" in the past 10 years amid growing bureaucracy - a solution was a "new generation of leaders"
    • France's electoral system would be changed to allow more proportional representation, so more voices would be heard at government level
    • France's state of emergency, put in place after terror attacks, would be removed by the autumn


    Mr Macron is not the first president to convene a session at Versailles, the grand 17th Century palace outside Paris built by Louis XIV, "the Sun King".

    ...

    Three parties, including Jean-Luc Mélénchon's far-left France Unbowed, boycotted the event. Mr Mélénchon accused Mr Macron of "crossing a line with the pharaonic aspect of his presidential monarchy".
    The front page of Monday's Libération showed an image of Mr Macron as Jupiter, the god of gods, holding forked lightning. Expressing concern, the centre-left newspaper said the session in Versailles was the latest manifestation of the president's authoritarian nature.

    ...

    The style of the Macron presidency is becoming clearer. He thinks that Charles de Gaulle, founder of the Fifth Republic, got it right: France's head of state should be distant, surrounded by symbolism and mystique, above the fray.
    That is why he decided to call this exceptional joint session of the Senate and the National Assembly - to set out to lawmakers from his position of supreme authority what he expects of them in the years to come.
    Of course it's convenient that the session took place in Versailles, a place of monarchical associations like no other.
    Emmanuel Macron feels the presidency was debased by his predecessors, who either interfered too much in the detail of policy, or pandered to the media.
    He wants to stop that, but critics are already saying he is getting above himself - and assuming powers he should not have.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  18. #378
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    1. Cutting number of legislators

    Org commentary?
    I would suport this one... for Ukraine. Here the same opinions are voiced giving the shrinking number of population as a reason. When the number of legislators was adopted the population of Ukraine was about 52 mln. Now it is 10 mln less, and some regions of Ukraine are annexed. Thus the number of legislators is to be reduced proportionately. I don't know what was Macron's argument, but if France's population number shows a similar tendency (compared to what it was when the number of legislators was adopted) then his idea sounds reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  19. #379
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I would suport this one... for Ukraine. Here the same opinions are voiced giving the shrinking number of population as a reason. When the number of legislators was adopted the population of Ukraine was about 52 mln. Now it is 10 mln less, and some regions of Ukraine are annexed. Thus the number of legislators is to be reduced proportionately. I don't know what was Macron's argument, but if France's population number shows a similar tendency (compared to what it was when the number of legislators was adopted) then his idea sounds reasonable.
    It is a motion adopted in a lot of democracies, including the UK (and we have a growing population). It is a concept around saving money by having less representatives. Also arguably, less people to "influence" whilst in government.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
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  20. #380
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    It can be done only if you have a total proportional representation. If not, I can't see the mechanism on how it can be achieved...
    Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
    So, he knows he had little time to push his XIX century's "reform" and try the Louis the XIV was.
    To choose the Louvre the Versailles is quite symbolic. The residence of the French Kings...
    However, the "Versaillais" in the French Psyche are the people who crushed the "Commune de Paris" in 1871...
    As he knows he has the legality but not the legitimacy he will go "en force" to pass his ideological program, which is in fact the following of Holland, to whom Macron was the Minister of Finances...
    I don't know how less Representatives can be more democracy...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  21. #381
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Seriously, the Louvre?? Banks are king I guess

  22. #382
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    It is a motion adopted in a lot of democracies, including the UK (and we have a growing population). It is a concept around saving money by having less representatives. Also arguably, less people to "influence" whilst in government.
    Excepting special cases like Ukraine reducing the number of MPs is a measure designed to reduce the accountability of the MPs (by giving them a larger electorate each) and "saving" money which in practice means the same pot of money spread between fewer politicians. In the UK it was also actually motivated by the fact that the Chamber was deliberately designed to only seat about 600 when the House of Commons was already larger than that. This was intended to prevent debate dragging on, but now people will be able to nap in the chamber.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  23. #383
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
    Not again. Again ruminations on the best/worst politician. Evaluation is always subjective. Anyway, one can't gauge the quality of a president (who hasn't started to rule, in fact) by the number of votes he received/didn't receive. If we go this way, the best presidents will be the ones of Turkmenistan and North Korea.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 07-07-2017 at 09:18.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  24. #384

    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    It can be done only if you have a total proportional representation. If not, I can't see the mechanism on how it can be achieved...
    Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
    So, he knows he had little time to push his XIX century's "reform" and try the Louis the XIV was.
    To choose the Louvre the Versailles is quite symbolic. The residence of the French Kings...
    However, the "Versaillais" in the French Psyche are the people who crushed the "Commune de Paris" in 1871...
    As he knows he has the legality but not the legitimacy he will go "en force" to pass his ideological program, which is in fact the following of Holland, to whom Macron was the Minister of Finances...
    I don't know how less Representatives can be more democracy...
    Brenus, the long game here is that France has to go in some sort of direction to stave off the right wing rhetoric. No more beating around the bush. People need action right now, so even if Macron takes a strong man approach, I would rather have his moderate, pro-EU strongman rather than the pro-Russian, radical Le Pen direction.


  25. #385
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Brenus, the long game here is that France has to go in some sort of direction to stave off the right wing rhetoric. No more beating around the bush. People need action right now, so even if Macron takes a strong man approach, I would rather have his moderate, pro-EU strongman rather than the pro-Russian, radical Le Pen direction.
    He is NOT a moderate... He is one of the reasons why Le Pen raised.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  26. #386
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    He is NOT a moderate... He is one of the reasons why Le Pen raised.
    Not vice versa?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  27. #387
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Not vice versa?
    Hmmm, difficult to answer...
    Macron was elected because he was confronted against Le Pen. Polls (but we know they are not precise sciences) are showing that 61 % of the voters for Macron voted in fact against Le Pen. A goat would have elected against Le Pen. That is why Le Pen is useful for the ruling parties... So they thought. But plans went wrong for them.
    However, it is Macron's policies (he was the minister of finances during Holland's government) that created the conditions of the abstention (more than 53 % for the 2nd round for the Parliament) and the protest vote going to Le Pen as vote for the one who annoyed the "Elites".
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  28. #388
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Hmmm, difficult to answer...
    Macron was elected because he was confronted against Le Pen. Polls (but we know they are not precise sciences) are showing that 61 % of the voters for Macron voted in fact against Le Pen. A goat would have elected against Le Pen. That is why Le Pen is useful for the ruling parties... So they thought. But plans went wrong for them.
    However, it is Macron's policies (he was the minister of finances during Holland's government) that created the conditions of the abstention (more than 53 % for the 2nd round for the Parliament) and the protest vote going to Le Pen as vote for the one who annoyed the "Elites".
    In post # 385 you spoke of the reasons why Le Pen "raised", not of the reasons of Macron being elected.

    In my view, the chief reason of the Le Pen's "raise" was not the rivals she faced, but the whole situation in the EU and the inlux of refugees in particular.

    As for Macron voters voting against Le Pen - wasn't it the same story at the previous elections?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  29. #389
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    In post # 385 you spoke of the reasons why Le Pen "raised", not of the reasons of Macron being elected.

    In my view, the chief reason of the Le Pen's "raise" was not the rivals she faced, but the whole situation in the EU and the inlux of refugees in particular.

    As for Macron voters voting against Le Pen - wasn't it the same story at the previous elections?
    Refugees: Yes and no. Le Pen certainly played on this, but it wasn't really at the centre of the debates. A bit like when T. May in UK tried to bank on Brexit and Corbyn succeeded to play on social grounds. She didn't succeeded to convince voters, the last debate vs Macron was a disaster for her. The problem she has (still) is the origin of her party, created by former French SS and Germany's Vichy collaborators. She is un-electable at the moment.
    The French elections saw the destruction of the two main movements that were the "governmental" ones, the Socialist Party (was socialist only by name due a slow evolution to kind of social-democracy) and the Les Républicains, dreamed by Sarkozy and was an alliances of "conservatives" movements. They were basically offering the same programs and were not really different one from the other...
    Macron succeeded thanks to a good communication to present himself as "new" but if you look at the figures he represents actually around 20 % of the voter so, does the FN and 2 other movements.
    The reason why Le Pen raised was the perception (partially accurate) that the political landscape was blocked, so the FN became the party carrying the anger of the ones wishing to blow-up the system in one hand, and to give a warning (knowing that Le Pen will be never elected) to this establishment...
    And yes, the vote against Le Pen was the reason of the vote for Macron. Always has been, reason why Le Pen family is so precious to the the men in power, as it blocked any debate. "Us or the fascists" is something familiar in the French political landscape, except it is wearing thin... As shown in the elections, the trap doesn't work any more for few reasons too long to explain, but roughly coming from a change in the speeches from Le Pen, and a really development of poverty and unemployment in France...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  30. #390
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    The speech itself was apparently in the palace of Versailles because the law says that if the President adresses both chambers of the French parliament, it has to be there. You can question wether it was necessary at all, but you can't really fault him for picking the location

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