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Thread: French Presidential Election

  1. #91
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    There is actually a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...iversity_level

    You may want to name Tunisia, Italy, Portugal, Poland, Greece and The Netherlands, but especially the latter is already a hellhole due to too much diversity I hear. Korea was out due to the dictatorship thing, which leaves us with Japan. Yemen has a civil war, Portugal is ruined by diversity, Italy and Greece are on the brink of diversistruction and Poland is so scared of even more diversity that it only exports people. Tunisia is another dictatorship.

    So really, the only valid example of a country that is not affected by the terrible negativity of diversity is Japan.
    And they're doing terrible, too.
    Um, Tunisia is a pretty much fully paid up Democracy, sorry.
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  2. #92
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Um, Tunisia is a pretty much fully paid up Democracy, sorry.
    You're right of course, thanks.


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  3. #93
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    They are more pronounced in Japan.
    Show the numbers.

    Fantasy argument. Great!
    Not enough firebreathing dragons with a pro-immigration stance.

    German police already recorded a decrease in crime among recent arrivals.
    Source? Regardless, you may find the the next 20-40 years more interesting than the previous 2.

    The point was that the mafia didn't come into existence solely due to ethnic mixing as it existed within a relatively homogeneous group just as well, even began there.
    Duh. You can note that such networks did not come into existence in many homogeneous populations. Maybe some cultures didn't have the right seeds.

    That you did not understand my comparison does not make yours any more valid though, unfortunately.
    They were both about principles and not so much about the actual processes going on. Marginalisation can have similar end results regardless of whether it is carried out with violence.
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  4. #94
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Show the numbers.
    They're out there, just like your numbers I assume.
    We are getting to the point again where we realize again that you haven't proven anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Source? Regardless, you may find the the next 20-40 years more interesting than the previous 2.
    Source was already provided in the discussion with Greyblades I think, or maybe it was here. Surely you can find it together with sources for all the unsourced things you claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Duh. You can note that such networks did not come into existence in many homogeneous populations. Maybe some cultures didn't have the right seeds.
    Maybe ethnic diversity is also not the only or most important factor in the calculation...
    Shocking, I know!


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  5. #95
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    They're out there, just like your numbers I assume.
    What numbers?

    We are getting to the point again where we realize again that you haven't proven anything.
    I didn't know I was trying to 'prove' anything.

    Source was already provided in the discussion with Greyblades I think, or maybe it was here.
    Or maybe you remembered it incorrectly. That's why it's nice when specific claims go with specific sources so that it can be easily verified, preferably without going through your post history.

    Surely you can find it together with sources for all the unsourced things you claim.
    Which statements which you dispute would that be? Be specific.


    Maybe ethnic diversity is also not the only or most important factor in the calculation...
    Shocking, I know!
    Last edited by Viking; 01-14-2017 at 12:45.
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  6. #96
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    What numbers?
    Nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I didn't know I was trying to 'prove' anything.
    Exactly, so why bring numbers into the game now?
    I was just beginning to have fun without using Google too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Or maybe you remembered it incorrectly. That's why it's nice when specific claims go with specific sources so that it can be easily verified.
    Nah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Which statements which you dispute would that be? Be specific.
    Your statement that nations are better off the less diverse they are.
    Your statement that if we don't stop immigration completely right now, we will end up like the Native Americans.
    Your statement that crime and gang activities increase mostly when ethnic mixing occurs.
    And your seeming statement that ethnic mixing is the most important factor in this or the one we should tackle first.
    Then your statement that this complete isolation is somehow viable and worth it.
    You may say next that half of these you never claimed, but maybe that's because you're rarely very specific yourself.
    You keep making vague claims about how terrible things are, never post a source to back the claim up and then demand sources from me to challenge your claim. Ain't work like that. Begin by backing up your own claims with sources that aren't news items about single events in Malm.

    And if that is too much work for you, it's too much for me as well of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Sleep well.
    Last edited by Husar; 01-14-2017 at 12:54.


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  7. #97
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Exactly, so why bring numbers into the game now?
    Well, what do you think? It could be interesting for me or anyone else reading this thread to see what you are basing your claims on. 'Proving' or 'disproving' things doesn't have to come into that.

    Your statement that nations are better off the less diverse they are.
    Your statement that if we don't stop immigration completely right now, we will end up like the Native Americans.
    Your statement that crime and gang activities increase mostly when ethnic mixing occurs.
    And your seeming statement that ethnic mixing is the most important factor in this or the one we should tackle first.
    Then your statement that this complete isolation is somehow viable and worth it.
    I have provided many sources that back up my views. Of course I cannot provide any source that says "Viking is right"; if such sources existed, we probably wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. The topic we have debated is often both abstract and complex and difficult to reason accurately about. I don't know what kind of sources you would want beyond those that have been provided.

    You may say next that half of these you never claimed, but maybe that's because you're rarely very specific yourself.
    That's not an invitation for you to fill in details yourself; that's strawmanning. If you want to know if a person has a more specific position, you could just ask.

    Begin by backing up your own claims with sources that aren't news items about single events in Malm.
    That's the second time in this thread that you have misrepresented the data that I have provided.
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  8. #98
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Well, what do you think? It could be interesting for me or anyone else reading this thread to see what you are basing your claims on. 'Proving' or 'disproving' things doesn't have to come into that.
    That's the thing about your posts as well, I mostly see claims about Malm and how diverse Russia/Dagestan is. When I look up ethnic diversity, Russia appears to be not that diverse at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_analysis.png

    What I'm specifically missing from you is anything that backs up the idea that ethnicity is the factor important enough to tackle it, unless we are talking about just finding the simplest solution without any regard for ethics. I found this report for example:

    http://urbanpolicy.berkeley.edu/pdf/HQ_SF82.pdf

    It does factor ethnic diversity in as important, but puts emphasis on language barriers and the lack of contact being the main source for trouble between different ethnicities. As I said before, language barriers can be overcome.
    Also note that it finds a strong correlation between poverty (both relative and absolute) and crime and various other factors such as age, urbanization etc., which are partially hard to interprete. It also mentions displaced aggression, which may explain e.g. why many refugees fight among themselves. that would be somewhat consistent with reports of the German police that immigrants were mostly the victims of violent crimes committed by other immigrants:

    https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInform...rung_node.html

    The report now covers 01.01.2016 - 30.09.2016.
    The first graph in the report summary already shows that the numbers of asylum applicants has gone down considerably in 2016 compared to the huge influx of 2015, which is entirely consistent with my point that the huge influx was not an ongoing situation.
    The report further states on the topic of criminality in general where at least one immigrant was among the suspects, that property crime has continued to go down and violent crime was consistently on a very low level. Property crime, by the way, is usually among those spawned mostly by poverty and not so much by ethnic diversity.
    And then it also mentions that the vast majority of immigrants did not commit any crimes.

    On the topic of other people wanting to know, if I were them I wouldn't read all our posts, so I assume most don't really care.
    It's why I dropped or "packaged" some of your replies to make the replies a little less fragmented, don't think it helped much though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I have provided many sources that back up my views. Of course I cannot provide any source that says "Viking is right"; if such sources existed, we probably wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. The topic we have debated is often both abstract and complex and difficult to reason accurately about. I don't know what kind of sources you would want beyond those that have been provided.
    A good source would be one that backs up your view that ethnic diversity is the major issue that should be resolved by stopping all migration.
    It doesn't specifically have to say you're right, it should provide a good reason for why stopping immigration is the best idea overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    That's not an invitation for you to fill in details yourself; that's strawmanning. If you want to know if a person has a more specific position, you could just ask.
    I'm pretty sure I formulated a lot of questions that I did not get specific answers on, so I continued to guess...
    It's not like you didn't misunderstand any of my positions as well, but I won't hold it against you, I happen not to be perfect either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    That's the second time in this thread that you have misrepresented the data that I have provided.
    Yes, in this instance I made two mistakes:
    1. I forgot that post.
    2. I wasn't very clear.
    My point is that the statistics for Malm aren't much use for anything other than Malm or perhaps Sweden. And they aren't necessarily good guidelines for how to treat refugees on a European level. there are many angles from which one could look at the problem, one is that the problems in Sweden and e.g. France largely stem from bad immigration policies that basically let anyone in and then leave them to themselves for the most part. The difference may be in that the police in Sweden is too nice and lets too many things happen whereas police in France is probably more racist and beats people too much (even the natives from what we previously discussed here). Both approaches are bad. In Germany the statistics clearly seem to show that events such as New Year's eve gropings and rapes in Cologne are mostly outliers for headlines, but not necessarily indicative of a general problem.

    Not to forget that the statistics can differ wildly between countries not just because they have different problems, but they record them differently:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle30019623/
    Once more a report about Sweden counting more rapes than most other countriues do.
    And since you may have been waiting for it, police may actually be incentivized to artificially lower crime statistics in Japan:
    http://www.nationmaster.com/blog/?p=74
    It also just so happens to touch on the gender differences in Japan.
    Apparently they solved the issue the same way you want to solve ethnic issues, by seperating the two groups.
    Which could be said to be the slippery slope problem of your argument, you end up dividing people more and more because they will always find a new problem that bugs them about others who are different in some way.

    Overall I'd take the statistics from a country of 82 million as more indicative than those from a city of not even 400 thousand.

    And as a terrorism-comparison-bonus, a japanese man murdered 19 disabled people just because they're disabled: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7217661.html

    Which just makes the idea that the terror attacks happen here due to the high diversity seem even a bit more off. Not to forget that Germany is not far from Japan on the diversity scale (check Wikipedia link above) anyway.
    Last edited by Husar; 01-14-2017 at 15:48.


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  9. #99
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That's the thing about your posts as well, I mostly see claims about Malm and how diverse Russia/Dagestan is. When I look up ethnic diversity, Russia appears to be not that diverse at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_analysis.png
    There are many ways to measure diversity. This measure evidently doesn't capture the diversity that Russia does have:

    Anyone arriving in Russia is immediately impressed by the scale of this immense country, which on its own forms an entire continent. But quite apart from its natural beauty, one is surprised and impressed by its population, a large family of peoples and ethnic groups that have shared this vast expanse for centuries. The Russian Federation is a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional state. It is inhabited by more than 170 ethnic groups, designated as nationalities. In the Russian language and law, the word nationality refers to ethnic, national or religious affiliation. The population of these ethnic groups can vary enormously, from millions, in the case of Russians and Tartars, for example, to under ten thousand, in the case of Nenets and Samis.
    https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?p=&i...55&direct=true

    If the measure was the number of recognised (by the state or some international organisation) distinct ethnic groups, Russia would rank very high. Yet another approach would be to use the same measure, but apply it separately to all of the oblasts, republics and other federal subjects of Russia (perhaps preferably an interactive 3D version with height as total population).

    What I'm specifically missing from you is anything that backs up the idea that ethnicity is the factor important enough to tackle it, unless we are talking about just finding the simplest solution without any regard for ethics. I found this report for example:

    [...]

    A good source would be one that backs up your view that ethnic diversity is the major issue that should be resolved by stopping all migration.
    It doesn't specifically have to say you're right, it should provide a good reason for why stopping immigration is the best idea overall.
    That's precisely the kind of sources one shouldn't expect to exist at present. It's a very complex issue with many variables. The best I hope for, is to be able to point out certain trends and facts that would agree with my interpretation.

    And again, I do not enter such threads with the purpose to 'prove' something, but to argue my position.

    Not to forget that the statistics can differ wildly between countries not just because they have different problems, but they record them differently:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle30019623/
    Another relevant thing here, is the consideration of how crime is reported in immigrant-majority neighbourhoods. You would expect crime there to first and foremost have immigrants as victims, and immigrants could be less likely to report crimes to the police for all sorts of reasons (including language).

    Apparently they solved the issue the same way you want to solve ethnic issues, by seperating the two groups.
    Which could be said to be the slippery slope problem of your argument, you end up dividing people more and more because they will always find a new problem that bugs them about others who are different in some way.
    Slippery slope, eh?

    Overall I'd take the statistics from a country of 82 million as more indicative than those from a city of not even 400 thousand.
    It's still just one country with one culture, however.

    Which just makes the idea that the terror attacks happen here due to the high diversity seem even a bit more off.
    I don't think too many people have that idea.
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  10. #100
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    There are many ways to measure diversity. This measure evidently doesn't capture the diversity that Russia does have:

    https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?p=&i...55&direct=true

    If the measure was the number of recognised (by the state or some international organisation) distinct ethnic groups, Russia would rank very high. Yet another approach would be to use the same measure, but apply it separately to all of the oblasts, republics and other federal subjects of Russia (perhaps preferably an interactive 3D version with height as total population).
    Yes, but at that point it seems to tell us little about the relation of ethnicity and conflict since a whole lot of these ethnicities seem to get along well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    That's precisely the kind of sources one shouldn't expect to exist at present. It's a very complex issue with many variables. The best I hope for, is to be able to point out certain trends and facts that would agree with my interpretation.
    Yes, but why single out ethnicity as the factor to act on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Another relevant thing here, is the consideration of how crime is reported in immigrant-majority neighbourhoods. You would expect crime there to first and foremost have immigrants as victims, and immigrants could be less likely to report crimes to the police for all sorts of reasons (including language).
    Yes, but so are other crimes for other reasons, e.g. when children get touched inappropriately by their own fathers or uncles, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    It's still just one country with one culture, however.
    And a whole lot of different ethnicities, many of which somehow learned to live together, so?
    One could actually even dispute the claim of one culture, if Russia has >100 ethnicities, then Germany has several cultures, unless you want to change the level of abstraction.


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  11. #101
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Yes, but at that point it seems to tell us little about the relation of ethnicity and conflict since a whole lot of these ethnicities seem to get along well enough.
    And a whole lot of different ethnicities, many of which somehow learned to live together, so?
    One could actually even dispute the claim of one culture, if Russia has >100 ethnicities, then Germany has several cultures, unless you want to change the level of abstraction.
    The picture is complex. Several of these ethnicities form the majority population in their own republic, as is the case in Kalmykia, Chechnya, Tuva, North Osseita and perhaps a few more. Additionally, it's typically ethnic Russians that make up the second largest ethnicity in such republics. So then you have many republics where most of the population belongs to a majority population in some sense.

    In addition to this, many of the ethnicities have 'their own' republic without forming a majority of its population (such as Altai).

    Then there is the perspective: out of the most violent places Russia, how many are homogeneous; and of these, in how many them are ethnic Russians (the majority population of the country as a whole) forming this homogeneous population?

    Yes, but why single out ethnicity as the factor to act on?
    Because we don't need (extra) intranational ethnic diversity. There is no point in dividing the population of a country into more fractions that those that already exist (and that may often be more or less unavoidable).
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  12. #102
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    The picture is complex. Several of these ethnicities form the majority population in their own republic, as is the case in Kalmykia, Chechnya, Tuva, North Osseita and perhaps a few more. Additionally, it's typically ethnic Russians that make up the second largest ethnicity in such republics. So then you have many republics where most of the population belongs to a majority population in some sense.

    In addition to this, many of the ethnicities have 'their own' republic without forming a majority of its population (such as Altai).

    Then there is the perspective: out of the most violent places Russia, how many are homogeneous; and of these, in how many them are ethnic Russians (the majority population of the country as a whole) forming this homogeneous population?
    Yes, but that does not explain why ethnicity should be an unavoidable factor and not the behavior of the ethnic groups based on the ethnicity.
    There are plenty of areas in the world where ethnic differences do not lead to the same problems. I lived in a very mixed neighborhood myself for almost ten years and did not notice any big ethnic strife, street wars and civil war just because different ethnicities lived in the same neighborhood. There were apparently two big (mafia) families that would sometimes almost start a fight, but that's not quite an ethnic problem, if anything I'd call it tribal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Because we don't need (extra) intranational ethnic diversity. There is no point in dividing the population of a country into more fractions that those that already exist (and that may often be more or less unavoidable).
    That division only happens due to racism or ethnicism or whatever you want to call it. And there are plenty of people who don't feel the need to become violent just because the people around them look a little different, which suggests that the ethnicism can be, and in many cases has been, overcome. You don't see Germany as an ethnically diverse country today and yet it was divided into many ethnic and political groups until 1871. The UK is made up of various ethnic groups that have stopped bashing eachother's heads in, etc. The thing most European countries without internal ethnic problems have in common is that they're quite well off. The poorer ones in the south also get more ethnic problems and the immigrants that come in and cause seemingly ethnic problems also tend to be relatively poor. The neo nazis tend to recruit from the poor as well, with a few middle class people or rich sociopaths mixed in as well for different reasons. If you look at the richer or middle class immigrants, you will probably find that they cause very little trouble and are usually the ones called well integrated.

    The underlying issue would be poverty (both relative and absolute) and not ethnicity. The latter seems to be the reason for conflict when the poverty divide tends to be somewhat identical to the ethnic divide. Of course the divide can be intentional (racism) or unintentional (new arrivals have no sufficient job/money/qualifications). The problematic banlieues in France are not exactly middle class areas for example. On the other hand the US often claims to have well-integrated muslim immigrants but also tends to favor wealthier or rich immigrants with its immigration restrictions while officially accepting precious few poor ones and refugees.
    Last edited by Husar; 01-15-2017 at 12:43.


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  13. #103
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    All this is somewhat besides the point. If A has a higher tendency of leading to C than B, where C is something strongly unpreferable, then you generally want to avoid A, regardless of why exactly it tends to lead to C.

    You would only choose A in such instances where you were almost certain that you could prevent it from leading to C (+ some reason to prefer it over B, of course).
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  14. #104
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    All this is somewhat besides the point. If A has a higher tendency of leading to C than B, where C is something strongly unpreferable, then you generally want to avoid A, regardless of why exactly it tends to lead to C.

    You would only choose A in such instances where you were almost certain that you could prevent it from leading to C (+ some reason to prefer it over B, of course).
    Exactly, avoid poverty and unfair treatment, not ethnic mixing.


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  15. #105
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Exactly, avoid poverty and unfair treatment, not ethnic mixing.
    Ethnic mixing frequently leads to poverty and 'unfair' treatment.
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  16. #106
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Ethnic mixing frequently leads to poverty and 'unfair' treatment.
    No, that is not correct. Look at well-off immigrants, universities where people have similar backgrounds, multinational corporations and countries like Monaco that only really accept wealthy people from everywhere. Ethnic issues barely come up as long as you mix wealthy people, it's when you mix the poor that you get problems. It is the economic problem that leads people to look for a scapegoat and then look for differences.
    The unfair treatment may sometimes be a result of ethnic differences, but then the root cause is racism and I strongly disagree with accepting racism instead of fighting it. Why bow to the demands of irrational ideology that belongs in the Middle Ages? Especially if the majority does not follow it unless there are the aforementioned economic issues.


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  17. #107
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Beyond the first sentence, nothing of what you write there strictly contradicts what I wrote.
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  18. #108
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Beyond the first sentence, nothing of what you write there strictly contradicts what I wrote.
    And why would I have to strictly contradict what you wrote? I'm only here to show that my argument is better supported than yours.
    Last edited by Husar; 01-15-2017 at 16:58.


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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Ethnic mixing frequently leads to poverty and 'unfair' treatment.
    As can ghettoization.
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  20. #110
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    No, that is not correct. Look at well-off immigrants, universities where people have similar backgrounds, multinational corporations and countries like Monaco that only really accept wealthy people from everywhere. Ethnic issues barely come up as long as you mix wealthy people, it's when you mix the poor that you get problems. It is the economic problem that leads people to look for a scapegoat and then look for differences.
    The unfair treatment may sometimes be a result of ethnic differences, but then the root cause is racism and I strongly disagree with accepting racism instead of fighting it. Why bow to the demands of irrational ideology that belongs in the Middle Ages? Especially if the majority does not follow it unless there are the aforementioned economic issues.
    A good dose of truth to that, Husar, but "haves" and "have lesses" seem to be a norm in all societies and eras. There will always be some potential for conflict in that.

    Neither the communist (every one shares equally with none having more) nor 'lift all boats capitalism' (things are unequal, but the have lesses are so well off they don't really mind) approaches to ending this tension have dealt with the issue.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

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  21. #111
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A good dose of truth to that, Husar, but "haves" and "have lesses" seem to be a norm in all societies and eras. There will always be some potential for conflict in that.

    Neither the communist (every one shares equally with none having more) nor 'lift all boats capitalism' (things are unequal, but the have lesses are so well off they don't really mind) approaches to ending this tension have dealt with the issue.
    Indeed, there is however also a difference between a larger and a smaller wealth inequality. And then there is absolute poverty, which, when bad enough, seems to additionally cause problems.The difference between "only" having last year's flatscreen TV model and worrying about how to feed your children tomorrow while those swimming in money say it's all your own fault anyway.
    The elimination of all conflict cannot be achieved with any approach I'd guess.


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  22. #112
    Hǫrar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I'm only here to show that my argument is better supported than yours.
    A bit difficult to do that without contradicting me.

    Whether it is toxic substances or bacteria (or both) that makes it inadvisable to lick the floor; I won't do it regardless.

    In the immigration debate, I remain focused on outcome. I am not focused on whether it is 'racism' or the culture of the immigrants that is leading to problems. I just don't want the problems, whatever the exact cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    As can ghettoization.
    Well, yes; in this context, I was interpreting 'mixing' (as used by Husar) as bringing people from different cultures into contact; i.e. immigration. Segregation is a frequent outcome of this type of mixing, which of course in turn can lead to ghettoisation under the right circumstances.
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  23. #113
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Indeed, there is however also a difference between a larger and a smaller wealth inequality. And then there is absolute poverty, which, when bad enough, seems to additionally cause problems.The difference between "only" having last year's flatscreen TV model and worrying about how to feed your children tomorrow while those swimming in money say it's all your own fault anyway.
    The elimination of all conflict cannot be achieved with any approach I'd guess.
    Of course it cannot be eliminated. Conflict, in the form of argument, is central to good decision making and avoiding groupthink. We could do with a bunch more folk who had more conflict management tools in their kit aside from "fight or flight" though.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'. -- J. H. Marx

  24. #114
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    A bit difficult to do that without contradicting me.

    Whether it is toxic substances or bacteria (or both) that makes it inadvisable to lick the floor; I won't do it regardless.

    In the immigration debate, I remain focused on outcome. I am not focused on whether it is 'racism' or the culture of the immigrants that is leading to problems. I just don't want the problems, whatever the exact cause.
    Such lazy attitudes tend to lead to unforeseen or even predictable consequences, I find it by far preferable to use more thorough approaches to problem solving.
    And from a moral standpoint it seems rather selfish to, in the worst case, throw others under the bus to solve one's own problems. If our society always solved problems like that, you may find yourself under a bus sooner or later...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Of course it cannot be eliminated. Conflict, in the form of argument, is central to good decision making and avoiding groupthink. We could do with a bunch more folk who had more conflict management tools in their kit aside from "fight or flight" though.
    I think that is where education becomes important. And the right social circumstances of course. Which again tend to improve as wealth increases. I'd be careful though to say crime in general decreases with wealth, to some extent it just becomes less visible and less physical, which may still be an improvement of course. Up to the point where things like tax evasion cause poverty and therefore violent crime again etc.


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  25. #115
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Back to the topic:
    it seems Fillon has a scandal with his wife to deal with which may affect the election outcome.
    http://www.france24.com/en/20170124-...paid-wife-aide
    A chance for Macron?
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 01-25-2017 at 11:19.

  26. #116
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Macron is currently in Beirut, collecting support within the french embassy with the benediction of our current presidency. Thrills....

    Macron is a wet firecracker, as we say here. Lil'bankster Celeb'!
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 01-25-2017 at 12:46.
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  27. #117
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    What do you mean by a wet firecracker, wis it anything like pre coalition lib dems or post blair labour?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  28. #118
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Wet firecracker means the fuse looks promising when lit, but when fire reaches the powder: nihil!
    The man has a tremendous ego, but has not displayed any kind of program until now. Howling it must MOVE! is nice, but towards what shall we move is another issue.

    As to your questions about libdems and labour, I have ab-so-lu-tly no idea what's going on really on this remote island, my friend, but please, please try to let Corbyn out of this thread , have mercy!
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 01-25-2017 at 17:56.
    "Les Cons a ose tout, c'est mme a qu'on les reconnait"

    Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Beza Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!

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  29. #119
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    "wet firecracker," Petard mouill" in french. Wet black powder can't explode. My translation would be "wet petard", reference to the device (petard) used to open the gates during the late middle ages early renaissance.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/petard

    In french petard is used for the old weapon and firecrackers.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  30. #120
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    Wet firecracker means the fuse looks promising when lit, but when fire reaches the powder: nihil!
    The man has a tremendous ego, but has not displayed any kind of program until now. Howling it must MOVE! is nice, but towards what shall we move is another issue.

    As to your questions about libdems and labour, I have ab-so-lu-tly no idea what's going on really on this remote island, my friend, but please, please try to let Corbyn out of this thread , have mercy!
    Damnit man, you should know I only understand the world through local comparisons!

    Next thing you will be telling me Le pen isnt the female offispring of ronnie corbett and nick griffith after all.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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