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Thread: Trump Thread

  1. #481
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    And yet, as a nation you spend more on healthcare than anywhere else - with significantly poorer outcomes. The $750bn health insurance business is a leech sucking out money in exchange for inefficiently managing health provision.
    At one end of the spectrum we have central government managed healthcare mandated for all, equally provided, and extra-system efforts criminalized and prosecuted.

    At the other end we have pure fee-for-service care with no guarantee of any care being provided for those unable to pay. Extra system efforts are not possible, as there is no system per se.


    NEITHER of these extremes exists.


    I am quite willing to stipulate that the USA's current system, the system prior to the ACA, and the system likely to result from the current Congress, are less then efficient. I am aware of numerous statistics that suggest US healthcare is less effective than that provided in other places -- at least by some measures. I even accept that some of this is certain to be true and that healthcare in the USA is imperfect (though I have always been frustrated by the lack of an 'apples to apples' style comparison (e.g. infant mortality before age 10. What constitutes mortality? Is a child who dies in the womb at 12 weeks counted or not? The counting systems are not always parallel).

    If we fall behind in certain categories, how much of the shortfall is a product of cultural mores and behavior rather than medical efficacy?
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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  2. #482
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I find myself wondering how america compares to nations of similar population and wealth. Does china have as good healthcare as america, does india?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  3. #483
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I find myself wondering how america compares to nations of similar population and wealth. Does china have as good healthcare as america, does india?
    America has this bubble, where it compares the healthcare exclusive to billionaires as being indicative of the entire system. Reminds me when Panzer was blowing his trumpet about we were all talking rubbish as "USA has the best healthcare in the world!", when it pointed out that no one can access it, it was returned with "So?".

    In the real world, especially on matters like this. We should evaluate how the Healthcare system treats the least fortunate members of society, not the most fortunate. No point saying you got the best healthcare when 40% of your population cannot even afford the basics and requires charities which operate in the third world to open shop in your backyard to treat a first world nation's populace.

    What is even sadder is the fact that in the USA, the costs of healthcare are on average 10x the cost of the NHS. So they are getting fleeced left-right-and-centre by 'superior' private healthcare.
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-13-2017 at 16:36.
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  4. #484
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I find myself wondering how america compares to nations of similar population and wealth. Does china have as good healthcare as america, does india?
    How are those two of similar population and wealth? The population of each is about 3-4 times that of the US, their population density is a lot higher and the GDP per capita is, I assume without looking it up, significantly lower.

    To some extent the whole apples to apples comparison seems a bit like a pink herring anyway since Germany is what?, eight times the population of Sweden? And I doubt Sweden's healthcare is eight times better than ours just because they have fewer people to care for. I can see a bit of a point when comparing population density since a lower density means the healthcare providers need to be spread out more. Even here some people talk about issues with a lack of incentives for doctors to go to the countryside. It is of little use to have an excellent, cheap clinic in the next city when you have your stroke a two hour helicopter ride away from there...

    As for the new Republican plan, I described it as such in a recent chat:
    Their idea of more choice is to remove all the VWs and Fords and replace them with more choices in Porsche, Ferrari and Koenigsegg, and then say "Everyone can choose a great car now!"

    So, similar to what Beskar just said.


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  5. #485
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    We're comparing a nation the size of a continent with ones the size of single american states, I believe that through concentraiting on the european models we are unable to assess the issue of compounding costs and complexities that come with administering a state health care on such scale.

    I have heard arguments that the size of america makes having one grand single payer healthcare system impractical and that america should delageate; have each state have a seperate health service. So I find myself wondering how america compares to the other continental sized states.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-13-2017 at 17:58.
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  6. #486
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Even here some people talk about issues with a lack of incentives for doctors to go to the countryside. It is of little use to have an excellent, cheap clinic in the next city when you have your stroke a two hour helicopter ride away from there...
    This is where things can get complicated (one of many)
    Canada used to have a program subsidizing education in health care; in return the recipient would contract to work in the north for a few years.
    The program was ruled unconstitutional; something about restricting the individuals right to pursue their well being.
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  7. #487
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    We're comparing a nation the size of a continent with ones the size of single american states, I believe that through concentraiting on the european models we are unable to assess the issue of compounding costs and complexities that come with administering a state health care on such scale.

    I have heard arguments that the size of america makes having one grand single payer healthcare system impractical and that america should delageate; have each state have a seperate health service. So I find myself wondering how america compares to the other continental sized states.
    So compare it to Australia then, or Canada. They're both continental sized states (if the USA are one) and first world countries.
    Comparing the luxuries and benefits of a first world country to those of a second or third world country tends to always have the first world country come out ahead in some way. That's why it's called first world after all....

    But if you really want India, you could also use Google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_India

    India does not have a National health insurance or universal health care system for all its citizens which has allowed the private sector to become the dominant healthcare provider in the country.[1]
    [...]
    Non-availability of diagnostic tools and increasing reluctance of qualified and experienced healthcare professionals to practice in rural, under-equipped and financially less lucrative rural areas is becoming a big challenge.[21] Rural medical practitioners are highly sought after by residents of rural areas as they are more financially affordable and geographically accessible than practitioners working in the formal public health care sector.[22] But there are incidents were doctors were attacked and even killed in rural India [23] In 2015 the British Medical Journal published a report by Dr Gadre, from Kolkata, exposed the extent of malpractice in the Indian healthcare system. He interviewed 78 doctors and found that kickbacks for referrals, irrational drug prescribing and unnecessary interventions were commonplace.[24]
    Then compare to China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China
    Healthcare in China consists of both public and private medical institutions and insurance programs. About 95% of the population has at least basic health insurance coverage. Despite this, public health insurance generally only covers about half of medical costs, with the proportion lower for serious or chronic illnesses. Under the "Healthy China 2020" initiative, China is currently undertaking an effort to cut healthcare costs, and the government requires that insurance will cover 70% of costs by 2017.[1][2][2] The Chinese government is working on providing affordable basic healthcare to all residents by 2020.[3]
    https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/...r-has-it-come/
    The pace of China’s healthcare reform has matched the government’s goals so far, indicating that China will likely reach its targets. The quality of medical services remains to be seen, however, and efforts to develop a social healthcare plan are still in progress. China is working toward tough goals, such as improving medical care in rural areas and tackling, with limited funding, entrenched reimbursement plans for insurance, medical devices, and pharmaceuticals.
    So basically India has a private system and it is terrible and China has a mixed system and is currently in the process of improving the public part of it to get closer to the better quality of the private part. What does it tell us? Probably nothing other than that full private is terrible.


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  8. #488
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    A quick summation of the CBO's report on TrumpCare:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...insured-236016

    Too bad if you're poor...

    I would anticipate a lot of pushback from people up for midterm elections.
    The Republican fog machine wails that the report does not take into account the "measures yet to come" which will make it all better.
    Possibly true but the CBO evaluates policy enacted, not hypothetical policies that may or may not exist.
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 03-14-2017 at 03:51.
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  9. #489
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    A quick summation of the CBO's report on TrumpCare:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...insured-236016

    Too bad if you're poor...

    I would anticipate a lot of pushback from people up for midterm elections.
    The Republican fog machine wails that the report does not take into account the "measures yet to come" which will make it all better.
    Possibly true but the CBO evaluates policy enacted, not hypothetical policies that may or may not exist.
    The GOP malfed this one up. They all ran against Obamacare, but assumed Hillary would win and they would not have to DO anything because few changes if any would pass by a margin that was veto-proof.

    So they DID nada to get ready for their big policy change effort. Now they are playing catch up and looking a little foolish.
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  10. #490
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So can we talk about how the Trump administration fired a bunch of federal employees and didn't replace them?


    In a few months they will be all like "the EPA doesn't even work" when the one guy left in the office is killed when the lone printer has a malfunction
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

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  11. #491
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Bit of an Andrew Jackson moment going on. Trump is going to see his patrons in jobs and not holdovers who bear little loyalty for him. Plus, he wants to downsize some of those departments anyway.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  12. #492
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Bit of an Andrew Jackson moment going on. Trump is going to see his patrons in jobs and not holdovers who bear little loyalty for him. Plus, he wants to downsize some of those departments anyway.
    Genralissmo Bannon will see to it none of those positions are filled. LOL at some, it's all.

    Also Steve King is going whole hog nativist. I'm watching that very closely
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

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  13. #493
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    A nice reminder that while criticizing Dear Leader, it is unproductive to dehumanize those who voted for him:

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...-trump-voters/
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  14. #494
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    More of a time to pause and reflect whether votes for all is such a great idea. One Trump voter was swayed by the "argument" he would make healthcare "better", and is now dismayed to find that the current plan the GOP has would (for her at least) make it significantly more expensive.

    Policies are complicated and often there are risks as well as downsides to any course of action. But since everything has to be rendered down to the quickest, simplest, most positive sound-bite we end up everybody saying how they will make everything great.

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    There is a silver lining to this healthcare bill and budget proposal, Most Trump voters will be dead by 2020. If I see one more article with some slack jawed peckerwood clamoring to keep the ACA but get rid Obamacare, I'm putting my foot through my fake tv.

    Im going to take some time today and rifle through the "go fund me" pages for medical expenses and explain to them how cutting capital gains taxes will help them. For those of you in half decent countries, I'll explain what those are. Here in America people ask for charity on a website because we dont have healthcare. So a person starts a page, and that persons friends donates money for their fucking cancer treatment.

    God bless America
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  16. #496
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    There is a silver lining to this healthcare bill and budget proposal, Most Trump voters will be dead by 2020. If I see one more article with some slack jawed peckerwood clamoring to keep the ACA but get rid Obamacare, I'm putting my foot through my fake tv.

    Im going to take some time today and rifle through the "go fund me" pages for medical expenses and explain to them how cutting capital gains taxes will help them. For those of you in half decent countries, I'll explain what those are. Here in America people ask for charity on a website because we dont have healthcare. So a person starts a page, and that persons friends donates money for their fucking cancer treatment.

    God bless America
    Already stumbled across a few links to that site. It's the wonderful kind of healthcare that some libertarians want, where people have to beg for their lives and others can then ignore them as that is the fiscally responsible thing to do.


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  17. #497
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    There is a silver lining to this healthcare bill and budget proposal, Most Trump voters will be dead by 2020. If I see one more article with some slack jawed peckerwood clamoring to keep the ACA but get rid Obamacare, I'm putting my foot through my fake tv.

    Im going to take some time today and rifle through the "go fund me" pages for medical expenses and explain to them how cutting capital gains taxes will help them. For those of you in half decent countries, I'll explain what those are. Here in America people ask for charity on a website because we dont have healthcare. So a person starts a page, and that persons friends donates money for their fucking cancer treatment.

    God bless America
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Already stumbled across a few links to that site. It's the wonderful kind of healthcare that some libertarians want, where people have to beg for their lives and others can then ignore them as that is the fiscally responsible thing to do.
    And the great contrast to this Libertarian indifference is a system that mandates that any person of substance or substantial income subsidize the healthcare of those who could not afford to pay for their own care, usually operating on the premise that health care is a basic human right that must be afforded to all (though some claim it is of general benefit to society instead or/in addition to the rights argument).

    Taxing me to pay for the basic education of others -- I do derive benefit for me and mine from a public that can read road signage, make change, and fill various job positions from which I derive benefit.
    Taxing me to pay for the common defense -- I do derive benefit from my country not being subject to invasion and being less subject to the threats posed by crime and terrorism/asymmetric attack.
    Taxing me to pay for infrastructure -- clearly I derive benefits from public works such as roads, water treatment, the standardization of certain products and certain basic health promoting regulations.

    NONE of these are rights, but taxing me to pay for these services which are more practicable when provided in common makes sense. Whole point of governance really. Does healthcare follow this pattern?

    Insurance is another tool entirely, parsing out the risk and choosing to accept greater base costs than required in order to transfer the risk of catastrophic payments in the case of an unlikely but not impossible catastrophic "damage" for which the insurance has been taken. To work effectively, however, insurance has to calculate the likely total risk involved and to base fees on the need to cover "Z" numbers of catastrophic events spreading the cumulative cost of the likely number of these and other events over the premiums of all persons participating in that insurance.
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Panzer
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    That guy also could not, no matter how much it was explained to him, understand why it was impolite to refer to the first black man holding the highest office in the country as a monkey. It was too PC for him. I also remember him getting really huffy whenever someone made fun of him or suggested that being daddy's bitch wasn't something to brag about.
    He got better about such things -- was actually embarrassed by his earlier posts when I necro-threaded one or two.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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  21. #501
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    NONE of these are rights, but taxing me to pay for these services which are more practicable when provided in common makes sense. Whole point of governance really. Does healthcare follow this pattern?
    Yes, the entire healthcare industry profits from this and so do you. Insurance makes more treatments available to everyone, which may otherwise not exist since the people having them mostly can't pay for their development. And then it also ensure that doctors get plenty of experience. And it makes everyone safer by providing e.g. vaccination to every citizen instead of just those who can afford it or wouldn't rather spend the money on a new phone.
    And then there is mental care, would be weird to ask patients to pay for it themselves or just let them run around, potentially with guns. Especially if they're so affected that they can't possibly work to earn the money for treatment.
    Plus you get a lot of indirect benefits by keeping people alive who may have a disability in one area but really shine in another, see Stephen Hawking.
    And then of course there is basic human decency, the idea to not just do things because YOU benefit from them, a demand often made by conservatives in general, see also below. Christian values also demand not to think only of yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Insurance is another tool entirely, parsing out the risk and choosing to accept greater base costs than required in order to transfer the risk of catastrophic payments in the case of an unlikely but not impossible catastrophic "damage" for which the insurance has been taken. To work effectively, however, insurance has to calculate the likely total risk involved and to base fees on the need to cover "Z" numbers of catastrophic events spreading the cumulative cost of the likely number of these and other events over the premiums of all persons participating in that insurance.
    Yes, health is like a lottery with compulsory participation and not having insurance is like asking to only have the winners pay for the lottery tickets. Republicans like to talk about how society has lost its morals and yet complain about sharing the burden of the unfortunate. The whole chrity model is just bogus because if you want to help everyone and not cherry-pick people (similar to death panels?), you have the same overall cost. Except woth charity even more people wouldn't pay, so the moral people have to pay an even higher price for the same result. Insurance makes immoral people pay a fair share as well.
    Consider that even financial markets, the epitome of capitalism, use insurance shemes to guard against catastrophes. Not always successfully, but even the most die-hard capitalists us the idea for themselves.


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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Yes, the entire healthcare industry profits from this and so do you. Insurance makes more treatments available to everyone, which may otherwise not exist since the people having them mostly can't pay for their development. And then it also ensure that doctors get plenty of experience. And it makes everyone safer by providing e.g. vaccination to every citizen instead of just those who can afford it or wouldn't rather spend the money on a new phone.
    And then there is mental care, would be weird to ask patients to pay for it themselves or just let them run around, potentially with guns. Especially if they're so affected that they can't possibly work to earn the money for treatment.
    Plus you get a lot of indirect benefits by keeping people alive who may have a disability in one area but really shine in another, see Stephen Hawking.
    And then of course there is basic human decency, the idea to not just do things because YOU benefit from them, a demand often made by conservatives in general, see also below. Christian values also demand not to think only of yourself.



    Yes, health is like a lottery with compulsory participation and not having insurance is like asking to only have the winners pay for the lottery tickets. Republicans like to talk about how society has lost its morals and yet complain about sharing the burden of the unfortunate. The whole chrity model is just bogus because if you want to help everyone and not cherry-pick people (similar to death panels?), you have the same overall cost. Except woth charity even more people wouldn't pay, so the moral people have to pay an even higher price for the same result. Insurance makes immoral people pay a fair share as well.
    Consider that even financial markets, the epitome of capitalism, use insurance shemes to guard against catastrophes. Not always successfully, but even the most die-hard capitalists us the idea for themselves.
    Not sure I agree with your second paragraph in its entirety, but I am far more a fan of insurance than of a government health service. And you know from previous posts that I am well aware that the current US system is, in some ways, the worst of both archetypal forms, despite some cutting edge capabilities that are amazing (though generally very costly).
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  23. #503
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    He got better about such things -- was actually embarrassed by his earlier posts when I necro-threaded one or two.
    Not about economics. He did change his mind about LGBT matters though.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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  24. #504
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Not sure I agree with your second paragraph in its entirety, but I am far more a fan of insurance than of a government health service. And you know from previous posts that I am well aware that the current US system is, in some ways, the worst of both archetypal forms, despite some cutting edge capabilities that are amazing (though generally very costly).
    I see compulsory insurance and government healthcare as very similar. Usually the argument is made that the private sector can do it cheaper, but consider that they need the same administration either way and dividing it over several different corporations can lead to overhead such as each of them having a CEO and a board of directors with enormous salaries whereas the government could do with one department head who probably gets paid less. Surely the corporations would save costs by paying the line employees less, but how low wages are good for the country is another topic worthy of discussion.

    It is possible to get a decent healthcare system without having the government as a single payer, we happen to have that in Germany. It keeps getting changed though and the whole system seems to be run in some weird government/insurance cooperation. For people who make a lot of money or are self-employed we also have a seperate private insurance industry, which apparently amounts to making one a first-class patient since they pay the doctors more or something like that. However, health insurance is compulsory for most things here and the big standard insurance companies can't just take it away, even if one does not pay repeatedly AFAIK. During employment the payments are deduced before the wage is paid out though, just like income taxes and other things.

    The point is, it does not really matter, as long as everyone is covered. The Republican plan is terrible because it does not cover everyone, drives up the cost, benefits the ones who have no problems with healthcare anyway and basically turns the US even more into a class society where the amount of wealth determines the worth of a human life. And it is only made worse by their claims to be the moral party that stands for family values etc. Lies, lies, lies, I say...


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  25. #505
    Member Member V:force Champion HopAlongBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The budget is a governments statement of priorities.
    Trump's priorities are pretty clear: internal surveillance and defense.

    If you want a looksee: https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 03-19-2017 at 13:10.
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  26. #506
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Looks like a mixed bag for the polls on this:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...n-health-care/

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  27. #507
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Welp.



    First the FISA requests now this, I look forward to seeing the doozy of stretch that'll be needed to sweep this one under the rug.
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  28. #508
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Cry me a river, noone cared when that Obama fascist regime basically stripped me naked and Trump continues that.
    They might as well screw over some citizens to show how wonderful all this surveillance is. Snowden is a hero.
    Trump shouldn't whine if he has nothing to hide.



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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I see compulsory insurance and government healthcare as very similar. Usually the argument is made that the private sector can do it cheaper, but consider that they need the same administration either way and dividing it over several different corporations can lead to overhead such as each of them having a CEO and a board of directors with enormous salaries whereas the government could do with one department head who probably gets paid less. Surely the corporations would save costs by paying the line employees less, but how low wages are good for the country is another topic worthy of discussion.

    It is possible to get a decent healthcare system without having the government as a single payer, we happen to have that in Germany. It keeps getting changed though and the whole system seems to be run in some weird government/insurance cooperation. For people who make a lot of money or are self-employed we also have a seperate private insurance industry, which apparently amounts to making one a first-class patient since they pay the doctors more or something like that. However, health insurance is compulsory for most things here and the big standard insurance companies can't just take it away, even if one does not pay repeatedly AFAIK. During employment the payments are deduced before the wage is paid out though, just like income taxes and other things.

    The point is, it does not really matter, as long as everyone is covered. The Republican plan is terrible because it does not cover everyone, drives up the cost, benefits the ones who have no problems with healthcare anyway and basically turns the US even more into a class society where the amount of wealth determines the worth of a human life. And it is only made worse by their claims to be the moral party that stands for family values etc. Lies, lies, lies, I say...
    Germany so often does things... better. And because so much is ingrained other countries can not just copy it - families who care for their workers and most people who do mainly follow the rules as that is the right thing to do and help others as that is also right. Family owned Mittelstand who take the long view, not selling out at the first opportunity.

    The UK / USA has a winner-takes-all mentality at all levels from those at the bottom who are out to get whatever they can to those at the top who act in exactly the same way. An all-pervading sense of both envy and entitlement with little concept of duty or responsibility. Unions who don't want to work with employers but would rather have adversarial relationships.

    We have a bunch of politicians who are either insane, incompetent or sociopaths. I'm not sure which is worse. You have a leader who in a relatively considered and quiet way does a good, glamorous job.

    Yes, I am a Germanophile (my last holiday was to Berlin - and is my choice for my next) and probably things are not as rosy as they seem.

    But grafting the mentality of how the German system works onto the UK or USA just wouldn't work until the psyche changes. And of course the irony is that the UK and USA have some of the highest percentages of German ancestors of most countries.

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  30. #510
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Germany so often does things... better. And because so much is ingrained other countries can not just copy it - families who care for their workers and most people who do mainly follow the rules as that is the right thing to do and help others as that is also right. Family owned Mittelstand who take the long view, not selling out at the first opportunity.

    The UK / USA has a winner-takes-all mentality at all levels from those at the bottom who are out to get whatever they can to those at the top who act in exactly the same way. An all-pervading sense of both envy and entitlement with little concept of duty or responsibility. Unions who don't want to work with employers but would rather have adversarial relationships.

    We have a bunch of politicians who are either insane, incompetent or sociopaths. I'm not sure which is worse. You have a leader who in a relatively considered and quiet way does a good, glamorous job.

    Yes, I am a Germanophile (my last holiday was to Berlin - and is my choice for my next) and probably things are not as rosy as they seem.

    But grafting the mentality of how the German system works onto the UK or USA just wouldn't work until the psyche changes. And of course the irony is that the UK and USA have some of the highest percentages of German ancestors of most countries.

    Well, I'm trying to do my part for the required cultural changes. I often check out the youtube comments under videos and how some people there defend the private sector economy stuff or even go full anarchy makes me think they just adopt arguments and never think them through. That is probably also an education issue and having more private schools would seem unlikely to fix that. Here we are often a jealous of how schools in the US or Canada are often shown to have the latest technologies, but I'm quite convinced that a good teacher is worth a thousand times more than having a beamer with touch capabilities. We may forget a lot of the information that we learn during our education, but the thought patterns, the correct application of logic and so on, these are things that can last us for a long time. And these are things the teachers need to teach. Given how people often get through school by memorizing what they think the teachers want to hear without really understanding it, it shouldn't be surprising that they might do the same later in life.
    And I'd say the same happens in Germany as well, I'm not saying our education system is a lot better.

    I wouldn't even say capitalism is bad per se, but its use depends heavily on your goals circumstances and to some degree the type of capitalism you apply. When you have long-term goals,. infrastructure technologies and serious environmental concerns, the kind of capitalism we often see today, you're just maneuvering yourself into a lot of trouble. One could even say the irony of our society is that we have such good healthcare overall that our society became dominated by old people who look for short-term profit as they may not live to see the long-term ones. They're also so drunk on the short-term gains of the past, using a relative abundance of resources, that they refuse to see that this can't go on forever in the future. And they focus entirely on the economic consequences and call everything else a "fake science" (see people saying liberal arts should disappear etc.). And this was a segway to the following article:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/17/u...conomists.html
    Especially interesting:

    For starters, while economists tend to view a job as a straightforward exchange of labor for money, a wide body of sociological research shows how tied up work is with a sense of purpose and identity.
    This is another segway to the following German article, which basically argues that another communist revolution is a pipe dream because Neo-liberalism has tied our self-worth to our financial success and therefore we lose all self-esteem if we are not rich and if we are rich we have no desire for revolution. Basically a form of self-enslavement of the poor masses who blame themselves for their lot in life rather than the system that is designed to perpetuate their situation.
    As one example for a worrying development it takes the sharing economy, which basically turns communism into a product that corporations can sell us and at the same time removes more ownership from the consumer who has to pay for more and more things every day that his parents used to own after a one-time payment. The ownership of the rich and dependency of the poor and middle classes sold under the disguise of convenience and instant satisfaction. In the long term it commercializes every aspect of life and makes capitalism take over our entire lives.
    http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/n...-ist-1.2110256
    Last edited by Husar; 03-23-2017 at 14:31.


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