Poll: Do you like Barbarians?

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Thread: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

  1. #1
    Member Member HeirOfGreece's Avatar
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    Cool Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    I really do like the barbarian factions because they have very good morale! Got those Warbands that can Warcry and Beat everyone up!
    Yeah Yeah... Weak Cavalary... But does it matter? If you have strong infantry it is good! Very good ambushers. But only Weakness is the Weak settlements... And financial...

  2. #2
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    I like them because they're so easy to rip up by my forces

  3. #3
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by HeirOfGreece View Post
    I really do like the barbarian factions because they have very good morale! Got those Warbands that can Warcry and Beat everyone up!
    Yeah Yeah... Weak Cavalary... But does it matter? If you have strong infantry it is good! Very good ambushers. But only Weakness is the Weak settlements... And financial...
    I take it you are being tongue-in-cheek. Money is the problem for me. Also weak units, outside of Chosen Swordsmen. I guess Bull Warriors, but I can't stand them, unrealistic, and why do they have two hit points? Swordsmen are only decent. Chosen Axemen awesome vs armoured units, but vulnerable to missiles. No good spearmen. I am an infantry general, so Noble Cav are fine for me. If you use Warband, just hope nobody brings Wardogs. Wardogs are ineffective at anything better than Warband.



    I think I like Gaul the best, Germania would be good but is worst for money. But Germania is a lot of specialized units, and not much in the way of line infantry, so not really my style. If Britain had normal cav and/or archers, that would be better, as well.

    I do wish they had stone walls. The Gauls did have them in real life. Also, no way to deal with unrest once you get above a city (I know, ZPG). I have not quite mastered that. Good temples, the Julii and I think all Romans can build over a Gallic Sacred Circle of Epona and build Awesome Temple/Pantheion to Horse, which at Pantheion level gives units trained there +5 experience. Nice, a unit starting out with two silver chevrons. Abnoba gives gold sword to missile units, I think something Scythian or Dacian gives a gold shield, at least when combined with blacksmith upgrades. Don't know which one, though.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  4. #4
    Member Member HeirOfGreece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Vincent Butler And yeah sorry for asking What are Wardogs ment for? I like never Recruit them (only when fighting elephants) Should i Recruit them more? And yeah i like Gauls the most too! Just do very high tax rates + farming + trader/market and you should be good

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Barbarian factions are a lot of fun to play, and offer a wide variety of units. If you are a cavalry man (like me), you'll love Germania (my favorite) . Gothic and Noble Cavalry are among the best outside of the Middle East. A wide selection of infantry with AP weapons (Chosen Axe, Bezerkers, etc), one of the top archer units in the Chosen Archers, and a spear unit that is serviceable early in a campaign. The biggest downside is no good sword unit (which is strange considering Germania historically had excellent weaponsmiths), and a difficult starting economy. Can't do anything about the former unless you edit some files, but the latter can be helped with Temples of Freya which boost population growth, thereby increasing tax income, and ports in the North Sea which increase trade income.

    Gaul has a wider variety of infantry, better income possibilities, better temples, Forester Archers, but not so good cavalry. They also have a much more difficult starting position, and you can find yourself at war with not only Rome and Carthage, but Britannia, Germania, Spain, and Scythia. Definitely not a faction for a beginner

    Scythia is also for cavalry (my second favorite). Vanilla Horse Archers to start with, but excellent Noble Cavalry (both for the men and the women), Chosen Archers, but limited infantry. Scythia's starting position is far-flung, which is a problem. I always abandon Campus Sarmatae and Campus Alanni very early, and concentrate on developing Tanais, Scythia, and Chersonesos. Take out Thrace ASAP, and you are headed for the riches of Greece

    I detest Britannia mostly because general units are glorified donkey carts posing as chariots, no decent cavalry, and no archers. Chosen Swords are excellent infantry, however.

    Spain is boring. The only thing going for that faction are the Scutari, and that you can build a decent economy with all the port cities.

    Dacia is kind of a cross between Germania and Thrace. Play if you get bored with other barbarian factions.

    Also, no way to deal with unrest once you get above a city (I know, ZPG)
    High Plains Drifter

  6. #6
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Agreed, the Barbarians are fun, because they are challenging. My fiercest battle was probably with Britain against the Senate. I won, but it was very close. Riots killed that campaign, but I was into Turkey. The entire map was blue. The Scipii had Africa and most of Turkey and the east, and I had most everything else. I had a good Germania going, into Italy, but after defeating Rome suddenly my finances tanked for no reason.

    Will probably start a barbarian when I get bored with Seleucia, or maybe start as Parthia. But I would mod for more realism before then, I think. Probably would be Gaul if barbarian. It is probably not a bad idea to hit Britain in Samarobriva quickly before going after Rome, because you do need to go after Rome quickly. Take Rome, then Greece, or perhaps Spain.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    But I would mod for more realism before then, I think.
    One of the biggest modding changes one could make for Parthia is to give them the capability for paved roads. And not just simple paving, but highways. The link I posted in another thread proves beyond doubt, that the Persians built a lavish highway system throughout Mesopotamia long before the Romans laid their first road paver. And make Susa the Parthian capital. From the Achaemenid period onwards (540 BCE>>), it was the capital. Even after throwing off Seleucid domination (around 247 BCE), it was one of two capitals (the other being Ctesiphon on the Tigris River). How the devs decided that Arsakia (improperly named as the Persian name was Rhagae) which was basically the spring residence for the kings, should be the capital is beyond me In-game, Susa starts with stone walls, Arsakia is a backwater town with no walls at all. Go figure

    [Sorry for the rant But I just hate how the devs screwed up things like this when 10 min of Googling would've gotten it right]

    you do need to go after Rome quickly
    Exactly. As Gaul, one needs to move quickly, and decisively. Not a faction for those who like to turtle.

    Edit: For some reason the original link doesn't work anymore, but Wiki has a bunch of them in this article:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Road

    Or just Google "Persian Royal Road" for others.....
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 02-13-2017 at 20:59.
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    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    The Bull Warriors are possibly the best infantry unit in the game but the cost is way high and, well, they are the figment of someone's imagination. Spain (for me) is fun to play - just wish the AI would allow land swaps so I could avoid war with the Gauls and concentrate on the Romans and Carthage as I should.

    Vincent Butler said: I had a good Germania going, into Italy, but after defeating Rome suddenly my finances tanked for no reason.

    That seems to happen with all factions. Always frustrating.
    Last edited by LordK9; 02-14-2017 at 00:42.

  9. #9
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordK9 View Post
    The Bull Warriors are possibly the best infantry unit in the game
    I think they gave them for balancing purposes. I don't know that I would rank them among the best, though I don't remember their stats. The best is probably Spartan Hoplites (insane attack, both primary and secondary, and high defense). But by the time of Rome Total War, even the Spartans weren't anything special compared to other hoplites. Bull Warriors absolutely should not have two hit points. Again, probably a balancing thing. I would imagine that the primary barbarian weapon was a spear, so the barbarians should have more spear units than just Warband. Then again, that is probably a decent representation of the standard barbarian unit. They had good swordsmen too, but the Warband would probably make up a vast majority of a barbarian army.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 02-14-2017 at 00:47.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  10. #10
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Agreed. As far as swords vs spears, likely the same reason most vikings used axes - most couldn't afford to buy a sword.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Probably some truth to that. Only Vikings of high status could afford a well-made sword. But I suspect that the armor-piercing capability of an axe also played a role, and that the light, single-handed axe could be thrown. The poorest soldiers probably used a spear.
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  12. #12
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Probably some truth to that. Only Vikings of high status could afford a well-made sword. But I suspect that the armor-piercing capability of an axe also played a role, and that the light, single-handed axe could be thrown. The poorest soldiers probably used a spear.
    I forget where I read it, but I have read that even Gallic nobles did not scorn to use a spear. Even though it was a poor man's weapon, it was still an effective weapon.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  13. #13
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by HeirOfGreece View Post
    Vincent Butler And yeah sorry for asking What are Wardogs ment for? I like never Recruit them (only when fighting elephants) Should i Recruit them more?
    Personally, I used them against light skirmishers and archers and the like. Units that don't have great attack or defence ratings, but are hard to catch if you don't have cavalry (or if you want to use the cavalry for more important targets). They are also somewhat useful as a fodder unit for blunting enemy charges or (briefly) pinning enemy infantry. But I don't really like them: it's a gimmicky unit, not realistic and very gamey in its implementation.

    Also, why use them against elephants? Other than for blunting the charge?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I would imagine that the primary barbarian weapon was a spear, so the barbarians should have more spear units than just Warband. Then again, that is probably a decent representation of the standard barbarian unit. They had good swordsmen too, but the Warband would probably make up a vast majority of a barbarian army.
    It depends. When defending their homeland, the majority of a barbarian army would be made up of "militia" units with limited training and equipment. These would indeed look like the warband units of R:TW. But the name "warband" is misleading, since these units were not warriors, but farmers and craftsmen defending their homes. The real warbands (groups of warriors around a local strongman) were only a minority in such armies.

    On the other hand, a raiding army would consists mostly consist of warbands, supplemented with mercenary groups. These would be professional warriors, and would have better equipment than the militia (much better, if their leader was important or wealthy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I forget where I read it, but I have read that even Gallic nobles did not scorn to use a spear. Even though it was a poor man's weapon, it was still an effective weapon.
    Nor did the Samurai, who would own much better swords. IIRC Samurai duels could be fought with spear, polearm or even bow. Swords were important, but they were definitely not considered as some sort ultimate weapon. In fact, one of the great virtues of a sword is that it is a good back-up weapon: easy to carry, can be quickly drawn when your primary weapon fails, but still has enough reach and weight to counter an armed, armoured opponent (unlike, say, a dagger, which can't be used to counter enemy weapons).

    The whole sword-beats-spear thing has more to do with balancing reasons than historical accuracy. The sword is more flexible, but the spear has a far greater reach. The swordsman will have to break or bat the spear away in order to be able to hit the spearman; and all the while he is within the spearman's killing range. Also, batting the spear away isn't as easy as you think: if the spearman is any good, he will constantly keep the point moving.

  14. #14
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    The thing to remember, is that Warband are trained out of the same level barracks as Town Watch and Militia Hoplites, though one on one they own Town Watch. 120 men vs 80, I guess. The barbarians should have gotten a better spear unit, say at the Swordsmen level.

    Also, there should be a better Gallic-style cav mercenary. I would say Gaul should get a better cav unit, but I guess the Noble Cav are fine. It is the Roman cav (meaning Legionary and Praetorian, not the unit Roman Cavalry) that are unrealistically good. Frankly, if you like melee cav, be Macedon or Seleucia. Macedonian Cavalry, awesome unit. "Cavalry, Macedon's Finest!"

    Some will say be Armenia or Scythia, which works too, especially if you like missile cav. Scythia has regular melee cav as well (their infantry is the problem), whereas Armenia's only real melee cav is Cataphracts (but they get the Cataphract Archers, who do just fine if they get caught). Parthia...well, good luck in getting enough money to afford cavalry.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 02-17-2017 at 00:25.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  15. #15
    Member Member HeirOfGreece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    1 question Ludens,How do you write that Originally Posted By? I looked on how to do it and i did not realise how... And yeah aren't wardogs good against Elephants?

    And what does Quote do?
    Last edited by HeirOfGreece; 02-17-2017 at 21:36.

  16. #16
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by HeirOfGreece View Post
    1 question Ludens,How do you write that Originally Posted By? I looked on how to do it and i did not realise how... And yeah aren't wardogs good against Elephants?
    I know I am not Ludens, but the "originally posted by" comes from the Reply with Quote feature, there is also something you can do with multiquote, I am not sure what that does. It seems you have found out what Quote does.


    As to the Wardogs vs Elephants



    Elephants are best handled with pikemen (hoplites are OK, but the pikemen have longer spears, so the elephants don't land on your troops as much). Skirmishers (not javelin cavalry) also get a bonus against elephants. Archers can possibly get them to go amok if you use flaming missiles. War Ellies or Armoured Ellies almost never go amok due to flaming missiles. I may have posted my Royal Pikemen vs Armoured Ellies video, I don't remember. I also do have different siege weapons vs Armoured Ellies as well. Ballista and Scorpions don't do very well against AE. Incendiary Pigs get elephants routing immediately, once they hit. That is the only use for IP.

    I have a video of the IP, and if the thread continues that way I will post it, don't want to be overwhelming with the videos. I did a bunch of one-on-ones. The default Window 10 in-game DVR gets choppy after a couple of minutes, so you can't really do a full battle.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 02-18-2017 at 01:20.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  17. #17
    Member Member weejonnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    So far I have played Brittania, Germanica and am playing Spain. (All Vanilla M/M)

    Brittanica - once you get heavy chariots then you can go to sleep and let the game win itself. I headed South to the Mediterranean to get a warm-water port as quickly as possible. One key tactic is to get the cross-channel trade going.
    Germanica - Basically I won the game with spear warbands - watching British Chariots die as they threw themselves on the Phalanx was very enjoyable. At least you start off with a good number of provinces and scope for expansion. I actually won the short-campaign criteria when I knocked out the last Scythian province as my 50th.
    Spain - early days yet - have taken over the peninsula/ Palma and expanding into Italy - Patavium is still Gaulish. May take Corsica/ Sardinia (whatever it is called) as weakly defended and I have a pretty useful fleet. Palma/ Corduba sea income is very lucrative tradewise. Economy strong enough to buy Bull warriors and Long-shield cavalry.

    My 'algorithm'

    Build up the economy by building roads/ ports/ markets
    Build up population by keeping taxes low in towns/ large towns that are getting close to City Status (then hit them with very high). There is a VERY big difference over 10 turns between a 4% and a 2% growth. (nearly 50% Vs just over 21%)

    Using the Financial forecast area is very useful.
    Although there is general advice against it, I build both land clearance AND also communal farming in areas where the natural productivity is low - 3.5 - 4.5% - since you can't build high-ended buildings that give a big boost to population explosions then I think it is worth it. Cordoba has a natural farming value of 6.5 - so it is possible to exceed the recommended maximum of 8.
    The population growth also enables more rapid recruitment.
    Take any population centre that is poorly defended, even if this means jumping in with the navy. When I declare war on the Brits Londinium will be the first to go.
    Unless you are miles away from the capital and in an unfamilair culture, enslave rather than exterminate. Barbarians are helped by the fact that Western Europe is the same culture-wise. (Except for Cordoba), so you can move the Capital well over to the East as you expand.

    (If you fill up your recruiting queue with peasants, you can still force the next unit to be trained to be the one you want.)

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Cordoba has a natural farming value of 6.5 - so it is possible to exceed the recommended maximum of 8
    I wouldn't recommend it. Corduba is a pain in the a$$ to keep under control even for its' founding faction of Carthage. It's one of those cities that has a built-in 35% unrest (Patavium, Jerusalem, Tarsus being the others). Put your best Law & Order temple there, and if you have a governor, choose one with a lot of influence laureates...management skill will do you no good for keeping the population under control.

    Unless you are miles away from the capital and in an unfamiliar culture, enslave rather than exterminate.
    Bear in mind that any settlement/town/city with a governor, gets a share of the refugees, which may...or may not be a good thing With certain cities, I break my rule of not exterminating upon occupation; any Nile Delta city, Jerusalem, Patavium, Corduba, Tarsus, Carthage, and any starting Roman city. All of these cities gain population back quickly, especially the ones with grain-driven population growth like Carthage or Alexandria. Those particular cities are a real pain to keep under control, and some time is needed to convert the indigenous temple and establish ZPG. Better to take a temporary hit to the city's income than to lose it to rebellion.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 06-16-2017 at 00:30.
    High Plains Drifter

  19. #19
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Egyptians are always exterminated, unless it is only a town or large town. Romans pretty much same way. Usually I look at happiness before deciding with others. I usually make my determination about temples at that time as well. Corduba, Londinium, Tanais, Tarsus, Patavium (usually), and Dimmidi will always get the public order temple. Not a bad idea to build it in Corinth as well if you are not Greek, to make sure you maintain the temple of Zeus at Olympus. That will help your public order with all other cities. However, I consider the upgrade to missile units from Artemis (or a Pantheion to Zeus, if I am that late) worth keeping. I have only gotten into Greece once as a barbarian. By that time, riots were killing my campaign.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  20. #20
    Member Member weejonnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    Well my Spanish campaign (M/M) is about to enter Greece - have taken Appolonia (or whatever the city opposite Tarentum is called), my armies of Bull warriers/ long-shield cavalry are kicking Brutii butt and the Mediterranean Sea is Spanish controlled. Basically I put in Temples of ESUS everywhere there isn't already a temple of public order, since not only does it give you Bull Warriors, it maximises public order. It is about 225BC, so not sure if Marius reforms have kicked in. 33 provinces including Spain, Gaul (1 Province Left in Greece), Great Britain (they are down to a few ex-Germania towns), Italy, Carthage (not yet secure). I have no problems with rioting -most of my towns are now developed as much as I want, so expenditure has gone down (the smaller towns are on low tax rate to speed up development). (The Scipii control Sparta but as that is the only city they do control in Greece I'll probably take that next.) Have done some bribing - I think that the bribery rates are set by your budget at the start of each turn - so you have to bribe early.
    ---------------------------------------
    End of campaign: Scipii didn't attack Carthage until I got some reinforcements there - and then started wandering off to Egypt (So I took Tharsis). Got rid of Britannia but didn't invade Dacia. Cleared out the Greek City Areas. Numidia attacked Carthage - bad mistake as 4 turns later I had wiped them out, and took Byzantium as my 50th. The Brutii were a pain as their black-sea ports were churning out quinquiremes. I have a rule that whenever a navy dock for re-training, I always add another vesssel. It is amazing how quickly the navy builds up.

    Basically once I had Carthago Novo and Corduba churning out bull warriers and my forces arraigned to stop the Gauls/ Julii this was a cakewalk - it did take until 200bc or so, so it was one of the longer campaigns.
    Last edited by weejonnie; Yesterday at 10:27.

  21. #21
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does everyone hates barbarian factions?

    My brother likes the Spanish, the Scutarii are decent. I personally don't like the use of Bull Warriors for my own because I question their historical reality. But that is just me, I try to factor realism in instead of just playing for fun. I don't use Druids, despite the fact that I have seen firsthand how useful they can be (I used to use them).

    It seems Dacia does not get much mention, probably in part because you have to mod to get them, same as Spanish. It seems to myself and my brother that Dacian Warband seem to fight better than standard Warband, though I doubt that is actually the case. Then again, maybe since they are supplemented by Falxmen instead of Swordsmen, the battle goes better for them, so they don't rout as quickly. But Chosen Swordsmen and Chosen Archer Warband? That would make for a tough force, especially because they also get Barbarian Noble Cav, who are decent as well.

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