Junker calls Check

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...future-europe/

Scenario 2. Nothing but the single market


The EU gives up on trying to resolve divisive issues such as "migration, security or defence" and co-operation on key issues becomes more bilateral than EU based. Radically, the EU also shrinks the regulatory burden by dropping two pieces of legislation for every one it passes.


By 2025 this will mean the functioning of the Single Market becomes the "raison d'etre" of the EU, strengthening the free movement of goods and capital, but making it tougher in other areas, like free movement of people.


Pros and cons: The EU's "re-centred priorities" focusing on the core single market issue, makes decision-making "simpler" but it also restricts the ability of the EU to deliver to its citizens. "This may widen the gap between expectations and delivery at all levels."

So...

The has the UK preparing to leave has actually triggered a real discussion of change?

[Husar]

I say we scrap the whole EU and return to a policy of Germany First, revitalize our military and produce locally instead of importing. We also need a wall toward the east. We'll have to see how we divide Poland between ourselves and Russia because we're overpopulated and need to secure the oil pipelines before Poland can blackmail us. Naval uparmamanet is key for this to keep the pesky island crazies at bay, but maybe the Russians are willing to help with that for a while.

[Greyblades]

You'd almost think husar wasnt taking this well.

[Husar]

You'd almost think husar wasnt taking this well.

I can finally play Age of Empires with reality, what is not to like?
Obviously I want my nation to win and become glorious.

[Gilrandir]

We also need a wall toward the east.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I say we scrap the whole EU and return to a policy of Germany First, revitalize our military and produce locally instead of importing. We also need a wall toward the east. We'll have to see how we divide Poland between ourselves and Russia because we're overpopulated and need to secure the oil pipelines before Poland can blackmail us. Naval uparmamanet is key for this to keep the pesky island crazies at bay, but maybe the Russians are willing to help with that for a while.

If this has been proposed a year ago the UK Referendum would probably have been solidly for "In". I don't think the fact this is being proposed as the UK is gearing up to leave is a coincidence, not that you can stop Brexit now.

[Husar]

If this has been proposed a year ago the UK Referendum would probably have been solidly for "In". I don't think the fact this is being proposed as the UK is gearing up to leave is a coincidence, not that you can stop Brexit now.

Well, let me call it a bad thread opener then, because your presentation was rather confusing for someone who did not have the time to read the entire article and mostly superfluous for someone who did. You also seemed to base your conclusion at the end only one the one scenario you presented (without marking it as a direct quote in any way so I thought it was partially your idea at first) as though this was the course now officially chosen by the EU.

You may want to scold me for answering without reading the entire article, but that doesn't change the issue of quotation.

Now, ignoring that and having read a bit more of the article, I can only wonder what exactly your point is given that he also made four other potential proposals. Proposal 2 may be the "Brexit-proposal" and you may be right in saying it came to be only due to Brexit, but there are four others, which seem to be equally valid. In fact I would personally prefer Proposal 5, but I assume, like Mr. Juncker, that a lot of people would dislike that scenario a lot. Then again the residents of the 13 colonies originally didn't want to federalize either and nowadays they can't live without one another. So

What I like about proposal 5 is that it would make the people take EU elections more seriously and that it would force EU politicians to take better care of everyone and solve the problems of everyone to a greater extent. I still think decentralization does to us what it did to every video game store of the 90ies, they all competed and got eaten by the big ones who could outcompete them. The idea that this is not possible on a national level is something you should tell the African tribes that got colonized while they enslaved one another for their new overlords.

Look at corporations, they get the idea, they either grow, eat the small ones or merge. EADS can now compete with Boeing and Boeing can compete with EADS. Both in the US and here the number of aircraft manufacturers has shrunk a whole lot as corporations merged and bought one another to stay competitive. You can't seriously think that if Messerschmidt, Dornier, Fokker, etc. hadn't merged into EADS, that they'd all rake in the international contracts now based on designs they came up with using a millionth of Boeing's design budget...

It's only on a government level that people can't see the writing on the wall while the US, China and Russia compete about influence and power over all the small ones. I don't think Crimea would be Russian now had Ukraine been in the EU or NATO at the time, for example.

Again, if that is what Europeans want, as someone from the most powerful nation, I'ma get my slaver gear ready...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My point was that it was ironic that, now that Britain is gearing up to leave the EU the EU's governing class is talking about real reform.

I take your citicism on formatting, OP has been edited.

Proposal 2 isn't the "Brexit Proposal", it's what the UK has always wanted - just trade - without the hassle. The lack of engagement like this is why people voted to leave, really, and not immigration. The British spent decades arguing for reform to the EU's governing bodies, to the CAP, and were repeatedly blocked and call "un-European" by some. Now we've had enough and are leaving.

This is also one of the points I made in favour of voting out, you may recall, where I said an "In" vote would only confirm the belief all was fine with the EU and only an "out" vote could spur real change.

[Sarmatian]

EU, as it is, is far from perfect. Its own emphasis on democracy to a ridiculous level has rendered any kind of decision making extremely difficult. In normal situations, it is a hindrance, but one that can be worked around, albeit slowly. In situations like we had for the last several years (near bankruptcies, instability, migrants...), in which something quick and decisive needs to be done, EU is impotent.

That leads to shady dealings, pressures on certain states/factions that are, or may be perceived as, undemocratic. In times of crisis and instability, people naturally tend to find more radical solutions much more appealing.

So, when we're talking about this, there are effectively two issues. One that EU is in fact bloated, inefficient, more bureaucratic and less transparent than most people would like, and another, which is the natural inclination of people to blame them for all the problems. Them is anyone who isn't us, and who us is changes constantly, depending on the times. Naturally, definitions of them and us are very fluid, so it usually works all the time.

[Greyblades]

My point was that it was ironic that, now that Britain is gearing up to leave the EU the EU's governing class is talking about real reform.

I take your citicism on formatting, OP has been edited.

Proposal 2 isn't the "Brexit Proposal", it's what the UK has always wanted - just trade - without the hassle. The lack of engagement like this is why people voted to leave, really, and not immigration. The British spent decades arguing for reform to the EU's governing bodies, to the CAP, and were repeatedly blocked and call "un-European" by some. Now we've had enough and are leaving.

This is also one of the points I made in favour of voting out, you may recall, where I said an "In" vote would only confirm the belief all was fine with the EU and only an "out" vote could spur real change.

I honestly expected it.

When a institution is so set in it's ways as the EU it cannnot reform without a massive shock; Brexit was that shock and now that the illusion of inevitable continuation has been shattered the EU leadership has to evolve or die.

It's the same sort of attitude adjustment the double shocks of the American and French revolutions inspired in British politics.

[Gilrandir]

I don't think Crimea would be Russian now had Ukraine been in the EU or NATO at the time, for example.

1. in the EU - nothing would have changed.
2. in NATO - seeing how it was caught on the hop I doubt greatly NATO would react as it is supposed to.