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Thread: The Art of Diplomacy and War

  1. #151
    Retired Senior Member Prince Cobra's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus View Post
    Gentlemen,

    I am pleased to read that the diplomacy is in progress. Nevertheless it would be nice if I receive the missing orders. Let's say on Saturday?

    Here is some homework for all of you: how many men (soldiers) is the carrying capacity of 1 galleon or a small ship?
    Sunday would be better...
    R.I.P. Tosa...


  2. #152
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    I believe that the troop capacity listed for ships of the period is much too small.Ships crews were much larger. Even the ships so far back as the Spanish Armada carries larger crews.

    The Great Ships (large ships) typically carries a crew of sailors and officers of around 300 and a compliment of marines at least a third that size. Many of the large ships had a full ships compliment of 500. When pressed into service as troop transports this number would increase from 3 to 5 times that number.

    Small Ships (middling ships) carried compliments of 160 to 200 and as transports, again, about 3 times the number of troops, or greater, could be transported.

    Given these numbers, for game purposes, a fleet of two large ships or 5 small ships should be sufficient to transport a regiment of infantry (unit with the largest number of people).

    Depending on distance and circumstances we might expect some attrition to take place in the transport.


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  3. #153
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    Well, Wikipedia for one seems to agree with me:
    https://www.wikiwand.com/es/Gale%C3%B3n


    under the Tripulacion section you can find some numbers. (Funnily enough that whole section does not exist in the english version of the article, so I suggest google translate. Or learning spanish)
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  4. #154
    syö minun šortsini Member Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion, Metal Slug Champion, Bubble Trouble Champion, Curveball Champion, Moon Patrol Champion, Duck Tracker Champion, Twelve Swap Champion, Zelda Champion, Minigolf Champion
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    Or you can get a professional i.e. me to do it for you, rather than a substandard automated translator. ;)

    And sure, by the weekend there'll be orders.
    good lord| if you're telling the truth you're setting new records for scumminess as a townie -Renata on IM, 16/09/2011
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  5. #155
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordsMaster View Post
    Well, Wikipedia for one seems to agree with me:
    https://www.wikiwand.com/es/Gale%C3%B3n


    under the Tripulacion section you can find some numbers. (Funnily enough that whole section does not exist in the english version of the article, so I suggest google translate. Or learning spanish)
    Indeed, the numbers are not in the English section.

    A part of it is that the Galleon of the era was merely an armed merchantman. It was also an era when merchant shipping needed to be armed. Private venturers would generally be expected to carry smaller crews but this would be more likely to increase the transport capacity of the ships rather than reduce it.

    The Royal, Great, or Large ships we may assume are those above 500 tons and she small ships 500 tons and below. Tonnage at the time was not rated displacement but tons of burden. Large ships could go as high a 2000 tons while the small ships sampled were 300 to 500 tons.

    The crew and ships compliment numbers found by SwordsMaster are not transport capacities but merely the typical compliment when under way for any duties. The figure of soldiers given seems to be what we would call the Marine compliment or Naval Infantry aboard for defence at sea and as landing party. My crew numbers came from English Ships, which seem to be better documented, at least in English. They seem to be using double the number suggested in the Spanish text for sailors, one gunner per ships gun (the rest notionally made up of sailors to man it), and a compliment of soldiers/marines of about 100+.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2.80.931625.29 (much of the data is incomplete. You may get a sampling of ships of various sizes

    The question is “ Troop Transport Capacity” if I understand correctly. Not the ships compliment.

    As my information is on ship’s tonnage in carrying capacity, I suggest that we use the expedient of small ships being of 300 tons and carrying 600 troops and large ships being of 800 tones and carrying 1600 troops. That leaves us with 5 small ships or 2 large ships to transport an infantry regiment of 3000 troops. The cavalry regiments would take the same number of transports because of the size of the horses. Artillery regiments could be transported by 1 small ship due to their small size.

    These are only expedients for size and capacity. Few naval ships were smaller than 300 tons though the Great ship vary greatly, from 600 tons to above 1500 tones. Transport of troops was usually a matter of hiring or commandeering sufficient ships for the task. Naval vessels would also be used but mainly as escorts for the safety of the troops.


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  6. #156
    Retired Senior Member Prince Cobra's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Indeed, the numbers are not in the English section.

    A part of it is that the Galleon of the era was merely an armed merchantman. It was also an era when merchant shipping needed to be armed. Private venturers would generally be expected to carry smaller crews but this would be more likely to increase the transport capacity of the ships rather than reduce it.

    The Royal, Great, or Large ships we may assume are those above 500 tons and she small ships 500 tons and below. Tonnage at the time was not rated displacement but tons of burden. Large ships could go as high a 2000 tons while the small ships sampled were 300 to 500 tons.

    The crew and ships compliment numbers found by SwordsMaster are not transport capacities but merely the typical compliment when under way for any duties. The figure of soldiers given seems to be what we would call the Marine compliment or Naval Infantry aboard for defence at sea and as landing party. My crew numbers came from English Ships, which seem to be better documented, at least in English. They seem to be using double the number suggested in the Spanish text for sailors, one gunner per ships gun (the rest notionally made up of sailors to man it), and a compliment of soldiers/marines of about 100+.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2.80.931625.29 (much of the data is incomplete. You may get a sampling of ships of various sizes

    The question is “ Troop Transport Capacity” if I understand correctly. Not the ships compliment.

    As my information is on ship’s tonnage in carrying capacity, I suggest that we use the expedient of small ships being of 300 tons and carrying 600 troops and large ships being of 800 tones and carrying 1600 troops. That leaves us with 5 small ships or 2 large ships to transport an infantry regiment of 3000 troops. The cavalry regiments would take the same number of transports because of the size of the horses. Artillery regiments could be transported by 1 small ship due to their small size.

    These are only expedients for size and capacity. Few naval ships were smaller than 300 tons though the Great ship vary greatly, from 600 tons to above 1500 tones. Transport of troops was usually a matter of hiring or commandeering sufficient ships for the task. Naval vessels would also be used but mainly as escorts for the safety of the troops.
    While I am nowhere near the knowledge of Fisherking and SwordsMaster, we should not forget that food for the crews also needs to be transported. A fleet overburdened with crews and supplies (food, water, cannon balls) is also slower and more vulnerable. I think Franc can look into the size of the Armada Army, the English Counter Armada for example. Then we also have disease as a factor. The food may also get spoiled. Storms also can slow down the said fleet. In addition you have also the sailors. It really depends how far this fleet will go, I think. It also depends whether there are friendly ports to resupply

    Artillery needs cannonballs and artillery crew, horses are also heavier than men and require more food, more space and special accommodation. Therefore, it will be more logistically challenging to transport cannons and horses.

    I played with some maths...

    I would assume a soldier and his equipment (bullet, swords, muskets, pikes, armour) are up to 100 kg, a horse is 600-700 kg on average. I assume you have sailors who are engaged in quite a heavy activities during the day and soldiers that do not need that much food. We can say that the average consumption will be around 2500 - 3000 kcal per day, which was mostly dried bread. Let's be generous and place 1 kg of food per person per day. This does not include the rats that often infest ships and if part of the food gets spoiled. A person also needs fresh water (or rather watered alcohol) about 3 liters a day. It really depends how far the crew will travel. For example it took about 2 months of the Armada to get from Lisbon to the Graveillenes. This can be more or less depending on the weather conditions. A horse needs around 11 kg food per day. I would assume it also needs quite a bit of water: around 50 liters per day (1 liter of water is about 1 kg). Depending on the task of the army, supplies for some time on land will also be needed.

    I also found this:

    This document established predetermined rations for each sailor, which included one pound of biscuits and a gallon of beer each day and four pounds of beef, two pounds of salted pork, three eights of a twenty-four-inch cod, two pints of peas, six ounces of butter, and between eight and twelve ounces of cheese each week.
    https://csphistorical.com/2016/01/24...irates-part-1/

    Of course, there might be the option to hire merchants ships (for a price) for extra carrying capacity. However these ships would be more vulnerable to attacks than a war ship.
    Last edited by Prince Cobra; 09-17-2017 at 12:31.
    R.I.P. Tosa...


  7. #157
    syö minun šortsini Member Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion, Metal Slug Champion, Bubble Trouble Champion, Curveball Champion, Moon Patrol Champion, Duck Tracker Champion, Twelve Swap Champion, Zelda Champion, Minigolf Champion
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    Default Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War

    I hope that ‘the weekend’ extends into Mondays.

    good lord| if you're telling the truth you're setting new records for scumminess as a townie -Renata on IM, 16/09/2011
    Feles deliberatissimae subiugare humanitiati sunt, et res solae quae eas desinunt canes sunt.
    I see I've been sigged yet again -Askthepizzaguy, 02/08/2012
    Hindsight is 20/20 Askthepizzaguy, 10/07/2013

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