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Thread: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

  1. #31
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I know @Kagemusha highlighted this earlier, but is it possible to give clarification on what you mean by this statement, @Philippus Flavius Homovallumus ?

    Just so it is clear.
    Our Society has moved onto a war footing, we have been that way since 2001 to a greater or lesser degree. Despite this we have not geared our economy for war and as a result we do not have the manpower to wage war effectively oversees against the likes of IS. What IS wants is for us to go over there and fight them so they can label us "Crusaders" but instead of indulging them we draw down our Forces further, so they continue to poke and prod us.

    They're trying to goad us into war and by not indulging them we invite ever more heinous attacks at home.

    It's exhausting, and our society is still suffering the social repression of being "at war" without war being declared.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  2. #32
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Our Society has moved onto a war footing, we have been that way since 2001 to a greater or lesser degree. Despite this we have not geared our economy for war and as a result we do not have the manpower to wage war effectively oversees against the likes of IS. What IS wants is for us to go over there and fight them so they can label us "Crusaders" but instead of indulging them we draw down our Forces further, so they continue to poke and prod us.

    They're trying to goad us into war and by not indulging them we invite ever more heinous attacks at home.

    It's exhausting, and our society is still suffering the social repression of being "at war" without war being declared.
    The enemy isn't "over there", they're "over here". Unless we define things so that we can isolate the enemy, we can't properly fight a shooting war. One step we can take that would move towards this is to recognise IS, so we can have something "over there", that we can deport problematic individuals to without running into the problem of leaving them with no nationality. Then it becomes a relatively clear issue of moving problematic individuals out of "here" and moving them over "there", whilst reducing the instance of problematic individuals "here". Note that none of this necessarily involves shooting or dropping bombs.

    The closest lesson we can draw from previous wars isn't the declaration of war, but internment. That is, the redefinition of our society into a clear us/them divide, with "them" all accounted for. There are any number of degrees on that scale, but declaring war, going onto a war economy, etc. is irrelevant to the problem.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I still think we should formally recognise IS and strip UK citizenship from those who go there.
    That would create problems for the desired national order, most acutely with respect to Russian irredentism. On the most basic level, we don't recognize just any band of rebels and renegades, and certainly not one whose imminent eradication is guiding policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Our Society has moved onto a war footing, we have been that way since 2001 to a greater or lesser degree. Despite this we have not geared our economy for war and as a result we do not have the manpower to wage war effectively oversees against the likes of IS. What IS wants is for us to go over there and fight them so they can label us "Crusaders" but instead of indulging them we draw down our Forces further, so they continue to poke and prod us.

    They're trying to goad us into war and by not indulging them we invite ever more heinous attacks at home.

    It's exhausting, and our society is still suffering the social repression of being "at war" without war being declared.
    This is a quasi-fascist sentiment of course, and the only saving grace is that you might claim democratic agents would eventually demand a reassessment under the weight of prolonged war mobilization.

    But there isn't money for it anyway, the cost is unjustifiable for projected results.

    Military response is unlikely to have a dampening effect on local attacks, arguably the opposite.
    Vitiate Man.

  4. #34
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That would create problems for the desired national order, most acutely with respect to Russian irredentism. On the most basic level, we don't recognize just any band of rebels and renegades, and certainly not one whose imminent eradication is guiding policy.

    This is a quasi-fascist sentiment of course, and the only saving grace is that you might claim democratic agents would eventually demand a reassessment under the weight of prolonged war mobilization.

    But there isn't money for it anyway, the cost is unjustifiable for projected results.

    Military response is unlikely to have a dampening effect on local attacks, arguably the opposite.
    If the above is what matters more, then you just sucks up what yer given, and stop complaining. Or, as AFAIK you don't live here, since that's what matters more to you, then we just sucks up what we're given, and we should stop complaining.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Biggest attack?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The media love this. The 24 news stations are desperate for content. They don t care that hyping these things makes them more likely.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  6. #36
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This is a quasi-fascist sentiment of course, and the only saving grace is that you might claim democratic agents would eventually demand a reassessment under the weight of prolonged war mobilization.

    But there isn't money for it anyway, the cost is unjustifiable for projected results.

    Military response is unlikely to have a dampening effect on local attacks, arguably the opposite.
    The desire for a "stand up war" we can fight and win vs this interminable situation where we are prodded and pecked at, this is quasi-Fascist?

    Politically, socially, rhetorically, we are at war - but we are not fighting a war.

    Shades of 1984.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  7. #37
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    2-1 home grown Muslim
    5-1 foreign muslim
    10-1 disgruntled pro brexiter
    25-1 leftist upset about brexit
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...polices-radar/

    5-1

    Radicalised local, white mother, black father - original name "Adrian Elms".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  8. #38
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...polices-radar/

    5-1

    Radicalised local, white mother, black father - original name "Adrian Elms".
    Maybe the place to fight would be the home of the Wahhabist, Saudi-Arabia, which is yours and US key ally at Middle East. Likelihood to that to happen.....
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  9. #39
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...polices-radar/

    5-1

    Radicalised local, white mother, black father - original name "Adrian Elms".
    IMHO, we should automatically monitor anyone who's converted to Islam since 11th September 2001.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The desire for a "stand up war" we can fight and win vs this interminable situation where we are prodded and pecked at, this is quasi-Fascist?

    Politically, socially, rhetorically, we are at war - but we are not fighting a war.

    Shades of 1984.
    But...there is no stand-up fight, so desiring a war footing for the economy is indeed a fascistic impulse.
    Vitiate Man.

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  11. #41
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But...there is no stand-up fight, so desiring a war footing for the economy is indeed a fascistic impulse.
    I do not desire a "war footing" for the economy, I desire a "peace-footing" for society in the absence of a war.

    That is not a Fascistic impulse, and nor is the desire to face your enemy in the light of day across a battlefield.

    I observed recently that throwing the term "Fascist" around with abandon cheapened it, clearly I was right if you believe I am a Fascist.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  12. #42
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    You noticed only recently?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  13. #43
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    When a gutmensch is out of arguments and takes out his magic wand and casts FACISMUS it only amuses us here really, that spell has the negative perk of becoming less powerful when cast too much
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    The word Gutmensch is completely overused by fascists, it's almost like the words have lost their original meaning (good person).


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  15. #45
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Our Society has moved onto a war footing, we have been that way since 2001 to a greater or lesser degree. Despite this we have not geared our economy for war and as a result we do not have the manpower to wage war effectively oversees against the likes of IS. What IS wants is for us to go over there and fight them so they can label us "Crusaders" but instead of indulging them we draw down our Forces further, so they continue to poke and prod us.

    They're trying to goad us into war and by not indulging them we invite ever more heinous attacks at home.

    It's exhausting, and our society is still suffering the social repression of being "at war" without war being declared.
    Here is what you said, which suggests a disoriented public consciousness (and moral diffidence?) resulting from a disturbed peace, and one which receives an erratic response. There is some tension that wants resolution.

    You proceed by accepting the terms that the tension can be resolved through a 'traditional' battle, and that this is what the people must be driven toward to resolve the distortions made to an increasingly-brittle public by a visceral moment that has largely only been worked at in confidential government operations. So the priority is to fix the torpor, to engineer morale (or perhaps indirectly morality, even virtue), and that's what our political and economic priorities should bend toward. And this looks like a decisive confrontation at arms to properly mobilize, galvanize, and straighten out the public spirit.

    I'm suggesting the idea that permanent security state is detrimental to social cohesion or institutions is not the fascistic thing, but the sentiment on how the associated ills can or should be cured could certainly be identifiable as one.

    I do not desire a "war footing" for the economy, I desire a "peace-footing" for society in the absence of a war.

    That is not a Fascistic impulse, and nor is the desire to face your enemy in the light of day across a battlefield.
    That in itself we can charitably say is naive or fantastical.

    I observed recently that throwing the term "Fascist" around with abandon cheapened it, clearly I was right if you believe I am a Fascist.
    Why should believe I you are a fascist? Think about that.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-24-2017 at 13:07.
    Vitiate Man.

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  16. #46
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    The word Gutmensch is completely overused by fascists, it's almost like the words have lost their original meaning (good person).
    nono, someoneone who really actually believes he's morally superior, the self-congratulating moral ubermensch. They tend to see facism everywhere but never recognise it when looking in the mirror, a gutmensch can be relentless. Like all borderlinrs his greatest fear is social exclusion, excommunication from other gutmenschen. That comfort-zone also pays well, also worth mentioning
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  17. #47
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Of course it pays well; Old Scratch looks after his own.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  18. #48
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Wir schaffen das.

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  19. #49
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    nono, someoneone who really actually believes he's morally superior, the self-congratulating moral ubermensch. They tend to see facism everywhere but never recognise it when looking in the mirror, a gutmensch can be relentless. Like all borderlinrs his greatest fear is social exclusion, excommunication from other gutmenschen. That comfort-zone also pays well, also worth mentioning
    So you are a gutmench for not supporting some strange fantasies of fighting an open war against an enemy you cant pinpoint and even so if that war will not directly involve one personally, but wanting to send other people to die in such "glorious" way?

    The Peshmerga and YPG are welcoming foreign fighters with open hands to join fighting ISIS. If the wish is so pressing, contact them and have ones war. Of course it could just be that one can live with much more ease when one can blame any hindrances life brings forth to "enemies", real or imagined.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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  20. #50
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    nono, someoneone who really actually believes he's morally superior, the self-congratulating moral ubermensch.
    Are they the reason you really believe to be morally inferior, know that you're wrong and congratulate yourself for having them figured out in every second post?

    And how does that relate to the thread? A little bit of context, please.


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  21. #51
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    How much more context than political-correctness do you need
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  22. #52
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    How much more context than political-correctness do you need
    What political correctness? Is it in this thread or did you just randomly post something? There's a thread in the Frontroom for random thoughts.


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  23. #53
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    What is actually wrong with Political Correctness?

    If you think about it, walking around calling someone "Overweight Fat Bitch" isn't polite or pleasant. Is it because people want to insult others, so instead of addressing someone politely as a gay male, they want to call them 'bum burgler' or 'arse wrangler' instead. I remember someone complaining about political correctness because they were called racist for addressing black people as 'Coons', more accurately putting a certain f-word infront of it too.
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  24. #54
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    What is actually wrong with Political Correctness?

    If you think about it, walking around calling someone "Overweight Fat Bitch" isn't polite or pleasant. Is it because people want to insult others, so instead of addressing someone politely as a gay male, they want to call them 'bum burgler' or 'arse wrangler' instead. I remember someone complaining about political correctness because they were called racist for addressing black people as 'Coons', more accurately putting a certain f-word infront of it too.
    I was brought up to be politically correct. Except it was called respect and regard for others back then. I also learned to respect proper Tories and small c conservatives, who practically had a similar worldview to my socialist-tending liberalism, but from a different direction. For individual rights, read respecting boundaries between people. For communities working together, read communal responsibility. That's why I have more in common with lifelong Tory voters than revolutionaries of any colour.

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  25. #55
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    What political correctness? Is it in this thread or did you just randomly post something? There's a thread in the Frontroom for random thoughts.
    What's so random about it, only an idiot would deny that we are at war with an ideoligy for years and will be for years to come. There are going to more attacks and everybody knows that. Pavlov-doggies are naturally stumbling over eachother crying that it has nothing to do with islam while fully knowing that it really really does. Or they really don't understand that it really really does has everything to do with iislam.

    @Beskar, those are just hating assholes
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2017 at 19:43.
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  26. #56
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What's so random about it, only an idiot would deny that we are at war with an ideoligy for years and will be for years to come. There are going to more attacks and everybody knows that. Pavlov-doggies are naturally stumbling over eachother crying that it has nothing to do with islam while fully knowing that it really really does. Or they really don't understand that it really really does has everything to do with iislam.
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...houghts-Thread

    I ask you where the political correctness is in this thread and you reply with some rant about a war, it doesn't get much more random.


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  27. #57
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...houghts-Thread

    I ask you where the political correctness is in this thread and you reply with some rant about a war, it doesn't get much more random.
    In a topic called 'A literal attack on British democracy' what I said is random? Are you sure you are good at this?
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2017 at 20:15.
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  28. #58
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Here is what you said, which suggests a disoriented public consciousness (and moral diffidence?) resulting from a disturbed peace, and one which receives an erratic response. There is some tension that wants resolution.

    You proceed by accepting the terms that the tension can be resolved through a 'traditional' battle, and that this is what the people must be driven toward to resolve the distortions made to an increasingly-brittle public by a visceral moment that has largely only been worked at in confidential government operations. So the priority is to fix the torpor, to engineer morale (or perhaps indirectly morality, even virtue), and that's what our political and economic priorities should bend toward. And this looks like a decisive confrontation at arms to properly mobilize, galvanize, and straighten out the public spirit.

    I'm suggesting the idea that permanent security state is detrimental to social cohesion or institutions is not the fascistic thing, but the sentiment on how the associated ills can or should be cured could certainly be identifiable as one.
    No, a real war with real, horrible bloodshed is preferable to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    IMHO, we should automatically monitor anyone who's converted to Islam since 11th September 2001.
    You see, we are losing the war of ideas - bit by bit, day by day.

    I am getting older, and watching my country destroy itself because it can't fight this enemy it can't pin down is, frankly, exhausting.

    That in itself we can charitably say is naive or fantastical.
    Just old fashioned.

    Why should believe I you are a fascist? Think about that.
    I think the most charitable explanation is that you have not been paying attention.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Lets apply some conflict narrative analysis to this conflict (and narrative analysis is one appropriate tool as many (most) people are more "narratively" motivated than are "ratio-legally" motivated.

    Questions to ask the parties to the conflict:

    What would victory look like?

    What routes, if any, can generate such a victory as you have defined it?

    What tools and resources are available to pursue these routes?

    What is your history of this conflict?

    What makes the other party's (ies') view of this conflict incorrect?
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

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  30. #60
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Lets apply some conflict narrative analysis to this conflict (and narrative analysis is one appropriate tool as many (most) people are more "narratively" motivated than are "ratio-legally" motivated.

    Questions to ask the parties to the conflict:

    What would victory look like?

    What routes, if any, can generate such a victory as you have defined it?

    What tools and resources are available to pursue these routes?

    What is your history of this conflict?

    What makes the other party's (ies') view of this conflict incorrect?
    War against Windmills

    see: Cervantes
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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