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Thread: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

  1. #121
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    More people are killed by bee stings than by terrorism. 25,000 people a year are killed by dogs in the world.
    And how many of them are killed by Muslim dogs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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  2. #122
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Good question, start with everywhere a sharia court and/or sharia police operates and go from there.
    It is not much of a concern to me, if anything we have been treating them like a privledged class; no other community have been allowed to implement thier own courts, nor had criticism decried with such rigor, yet their members keep lashing out with unparalleled violence.
    I just had to delurk for this - I cant believe no one else brought Greyblades to task for such utter ignorance.

    1) There are no "Sharia courts" in the UK. There are Sharia councils who offer arbitration but their rulings are not law and have no legal standing in actual courts.
    2) They are not the only religious councils offering arbitration - the Jewish community has had its own (the Beth Din) for centuries and other Christian councils are also in existence.

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  3. #123
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Just because they have no legal bearing doesn't mean they don't exist, and are a huge problem especially for women, the ultimate judge is their society. You know that's true. There isn't anything that can be done against it but if you value women's rights it doesn't resonate very well with reality if you just sqy they aren't officially binding, a verdict can have terrible consequences regardless, that shouldn't be dismissed. At least we should strongly distantiate ourselves from sharia-courts and give not an inch, that's all we can and should do. Alas we don't, respect and all that, screw respect I'd say, I've had things under my shoe I respect more
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-28-2017 at 16:39.

  4. #124
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Just because they have no legal bearing doesn't mean they don't exist, and are a huge problem especially for women, the ultimate judge is their society. You know that's true. There isn't anything that can be done against it but if you value women's rights it doesn't resonate very well with reality if you just sqy they aren't officially binding, a verdict can have terrible consequences regardless, that shouldn't be dismissed. At least we should strongly distantiate ourselves from sharia-courts and give not an inch, that's all we can and should do. Alas we don't, respect and all that, screw respect I'd say, I've had things under my shoe I respect more
    I am not really sure you understand what I am saying - they are not courts and as such cannot give verdicts or make rulings.


    They are totally limited to arbitrating disputes between two willing parties.


    Ill agree they are problematic when it comes to sexism (the Beth Din has been accused of favouring Men many times to my knowledge) but singling out the Muslim councils is far worse when arguable they are all equally as bad.

  5. #125
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    I am not really sure you understand what I am saying - they are not courts and as such cannot give verdicts or make rulings.


    They are totally limited to arbitrating disputes between two willing parties.
    Do you honestly think that there are two willing parties, sorry but I find that realy naive. We can't do anything against it legally but we can ridicule the fuck out their ways of handling things. Everybody knows that women have less rights in these courts and that being branded is basicly a (social) death-sentence, bye friends, bye family, total solitude

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  6. #126
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Do you honestly think that there are two willing parties, sorry but I find that realy naive. We can't do anything against it legally but we can ridicule the fuck out their ways of handling things. Everybody knows that women have less rights in these courts and that being branded is basicly a (social) death-sentence, bye friends, bye family, total solitude
    And the cultural impact is greater. Family -- in the sense of the extended, not nuclear family -- is of more value that the individual in most of the cultures wherein Islam is the primary religion. The "family" cultures of the West tend toward more of a nuclear family definition. The idea of "clan" faded in the West. Exclusion and outcast status is much more compelling a punishment to such a culture than it ever could be to anyone from one of the more ratio-legally driven Western cultures.
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  7. #127
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    -snip-
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-28-2017 at 19:55.

  8. #128
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    I actually agree with Fragony in this case. These courts may only make suggestions but there is most likely an incredible peer pressure to follow these "suggestions". And for people who want no part in this, it's very hard to get out of that "system". If these communities also send out a "shariah police" that tells everyone, including non-muslims how to behave in the area according to shariah law, it's an obvious attempt to create a parallel society where members cannot rely on the protection of the British or other local government anymore. This is absolutely unacceptable as it tends to go strongly against our democratic values and oppresses people in our midst. It's an attempt to undermine the freedoms that we claim to guaranteee in our democracies.

    If other religions have similarly oppressive structures that people cannot easily escape from, it is equally wrong. Out of the top of my head I can think only of Scientology. I know fundamental Christians and they would try to convince you and so on, but not oppress you or use violence or threats thereof to bring people in line. To deny that fundamentalist muslims are sometimes even willing to even kill their own family members in order to enforce religious ideas would indeed be naive.

    While the solution can't be mass punishment, these structures need to be broken nonetheless. It basically seems very similar to domestic abuse of the kind we've been fighting for a long time already, solutions could possibly be found there, while any attempts at patrolling around as shariah police and so on should be punishable as attempts at undermining the rule of law and impersonation of officers. IIRC that's how the police treat them here.


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  9. #129

    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    And the cultural impact is greater. Family -- in the sense of the extended, not nuclear family -- is of more value that the individual in most of the cultures wherein Islam is the primary religion. The "family" cultures of the West tend toward more of a nuclear family definition. The idea of "clan" faded in the West. Exclusion and outcast status is much more compelling a punishment to such a culture than it ever could be to anyone from one of the more ratio-legally driven Western cultures.
    While it's true that Americans are a relatively-mobile people, and small-town residents where there is a strong religious bent have a tradition of 'getting the heck out ASAP', you shouldn't take emigration for granted as a matter of course, even forgetting those who can't or don't leave, or those who must be raised there.

    It's not the sort of community to explicitly couple enforcement with violence - that's what corrupt sherrifs are for - but it is quite forgiving and encouraging of patriarchal violence between private individuals, and public complaint tends to receive public censure against the complainer.
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  10. #130
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Off the top of my head:

    Minimum:
    Complete moratorioum on international funding for islamic religious institutions. A mosque should be sustained by their congregation, not by the funding of a foreign power.
    Regular investigations into every mosque and islamic college in Britain for radicalization.
    Ensure those convicted of spreading islamic radicalization serve their sentances in solitary confinement, with offer of exile as an alternative sentance.
    Investigation of anyone who visited the middle east outside of official capacity in the last 17 years.
    Increase legal punishment for rotheram-esque inaction by law enforcement.
    Harsh legal consequences for false reports of racial or religious discrimination on the part of law enforcement.

    Best result:
    Provde incetives for the disbanding of islamic ghettos and regulatons against further high density islamic hot spots forming.
    Police baiting of Islamic ghettos, any who are easily provoked into harassing or attacking a non muslim undercover cop wandering into thier turf should find themeselves quickly disuaded as they end up spending a few nights in the slammer.

    Personal suggestion:
    Extend an offer to fund voluntary self exile for muslim citizens. Give them say 5 grand and a plane ticket to saudi arabia or quatar, record thier fingerprints, irises, DNA etc on the way out and not allow them to ever return to the country unless they repay the cost and burn a quran or something equally anathema.
    Ensure Islamic terrorists are publically buried in sewn up pig skins, the stupider elements of islam might think it would ruin thier chances of going to heaven and be disuaded.
    Congratulations on this parade of personal foolishness.
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  11. #131
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    I find it rather indignified to call for things like burying bomblims in pig-skin but I can kinda understand why people want to hurt them that way. I could never be in favor of it but terrorist-attacks are also symbolic. Wouldn't call someone who says we should do that stupid people alwatys are angry after an attack, only ask him to think things over after a good night of sleep

  12. #132
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Congratulations on this parade of personal foolishness.
    Not very helpful criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I find it rather indignified to call for things like burying bomblims in pig-skin but I can kinda understand why people want to hurt them that way. I could never be in favor of it but terrorist-attacks are also symbolic. Wouldn't call someone who says we should do that stupid people alwatys are angry after an attack, only ask him to think things over after a good night of sleep
    The same could be said about terrorists. I think it is called stooping down to their level.


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  13. #133
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I actually agree with Fragony in this case. These courts may only make suggestions but there is most likely an incredible peer pressure to follow these "suggestions". And for people who want no part in this, it's very hard to get out of that "system". If these communities also send out a "shariah police" that tells everyone, including non-muslims how to behave in the area according to shariah law, it's an obvious attempt to create a parallel society where members cannot rely on the protection of the British or other local government anymore. This is absolutely unacceptable as it tends to go strongly against our democratic values and oppresses people in our midst. It's an attempt to undermine the freedoms that we claim to guaranteee in our democracies.

    If other religions have similarly oppressive structures that people cannot easily escape from, it is equally wrong. Out of the top of my head I can think only of Scientology. I know fundamental Christians and they would try to convince you and so on, but not oppress you or use violence or threats thereof to bring people in line. To deny that fundamentalist muslims are sometimes even willing to even kill their own family members in order to enforce religious ideas would indeed be naive.

    While the solution can't be mass punishment, these structures need to be broken nonetheless. It basically seems very similar to domestic abuse of the kind we've been fighting for a long time already, solutions could possibly be found there, while any attempts at patrolling around as shariah police and so on should be punishable as attempts at undermining the rule of law and impersonation of officers. IIRC that's how the police treat them here.
    Conservative Muslims have plenty in common with the now extinct extremely conservative Christians. Which makes it odd for certain strains of the Left to be so vocal in their support. I'm minded of Orwell's piece on why strains of the British Left were so supportive of the USSR. They take the default position that the Anglo-Americans are in the wrong, and therefore anything that opposes them is the side to take. Resulting in the far Left supporting the USSR, and nowadays Islamism, despite these foreign movements being so opposed to liberal ideals that the Left are supposed to hold dear.

  14. #134
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Not very helpful criticism.
    No, but what can you say? After the IRA bombs in the 70s and 80s, we didn't stop the Catholics from building churches. We didn't try and break up and disperse the population of Kilburn.

    His ideas are a combination of the unjust, the unworkable (investigate everyone who's been to the middle east?) and the plain daft.
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Conservative Muslims have plenty in common with the now extinct extremely conservative Christians. Which makes it odd for certain strains of the Left to be so vocal in their support. I'm minded of Orwell's piece on why strains of the British Left were so supportive of the USSR. They take the default position that the Anglo-Americans are in the wrong, and therefore anything that opposes them is the side to take. Resulting in the far Left supporting the USSR, and nowadays Islamism, despite these foreign movements being so opposed to liberal ideals that the Left are supposed to hold dear.
    To some extent it is less support for Islamism than opposition to those who invoke it as a club.
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  16. #136
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    To some extent it is less support for Islamism than opposition to those who invoke it as a club.
    Yet the double standard remains obvious. The left sees the islam as a project it seems

  17. #137
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Conservative Muslims have plenty in common with the now extinct extremely conservative Christians. Which makes it odd for certain strains of the Left to be so vocal in their support.
    I'd agree that there are a lot of leftists who automatically support different cultures/religions because "it's what you do as a leftist".

    But where liberals and conservatives disagree is in the nature of Islam itself. A liberal tends to see perverted interpretation of Islam as the problem, while conservatives see Islam itself as the problem.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I'd agree that there are a lot of leftists who automatically support different cultures/religions because "it's what you do as a leftist".

    But where liberals and conservatives disagree is in the nature of Islam itself. A liberal tends to see perverted interpretation of Islam as the problem, while conservatives see Islam itself as the problem.
    Muslims can't agree on the nature of islam, I am much more interested in why leftists defend the islam by default. I think I know why, leftism is a religion as well and leftists are in fact deeply religious. Christianity is a competer with the leftist church, islam an ally just because it's different
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-29-2017 at 16:48.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I'd agree that there are a lot of leftists who automatically support different cultures/religions because "it's what you do as a leftist".

    But where liberals and conservatives disagree is in the nature of Islam itself. A liberal tends to see perverted interpretation of Islam as the problem, while conservatives see Islam itself as the problem.
    I see Islam as an extra-national state as the problem. If British Muslims think of themselves as British first and Muslim second, as just about every other culture in Britain does, then the worst aspects of conservative Islam are ameliorated. If they think of themselves as Muslim first and overwhelmingly, then they're well on the way to becoming a problem.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Yet the double standard remains obvious. The left sees the islam as a project it seems
    The left have traditionally been supportive of freedom of thought and conscience. The right have traditionally mandated a "main culture" (that of the ruling majority) and claimed that this culture was under siege.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I see Islam as an extra-national state as the problem. If British Muslims think of themselves as British first and Muslim second, as just about every other culture in Britain does, then the worst aspects of conservative Islam are ameliorated. If they think of themselves as Muslim first and overwhelmingly, then they're well on the way to becoming a problem.
    I see myself as humanist first and English second. Does that mean I should be marched off to the camps?
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  22. #142
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I see myself as humanist first and English second. Does that mean I should be marched off to the camps?
    How many people have been killed by humanist terrorist attacks?

  23. #143
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    The left have traditionally been supportive of freedom of thought and conscience. The right have traditionally mandated a "main culture" (that of the ruling majority) and claimed that this culture was under siege.
    Which is why it's puzzling that the radical Left ally themselves with conservative Islam, which is as anti freedom of thought as Christianity at its worst. Well, it's not puzzling if you understand that their starting point is that the Anglo-Americans are wrong, and go from there, as Orwell saw back in the 1930s when it was the USSR that was their vehicle of choice.

  24. #144

    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Which is why it's puzzling that the radical Left ally themselves with conservative Islam, which is as anti freedom of thought as Christianity at its worst. Well, it's not puzzling if you understand that their starting point is that the Anglo-Americans are wrong, and go from there, as Orwell saw back in the 1930s when it was the USSR that was their vehicle of choice.
    Let's start associating: near enemy over far enemy; better a dog in the backyard than a bear in the kitchen.
    Why should leftists oppose Islam on rightist terms, when rightists oppose Islam on the same terms they oppose the left?
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  25. #145
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Let's start associating: near enemy over far enemy; better a dog in the backyard than a bear in the kitchen.
    Why should leftists oppose Islam on rightist terms, when rightists oppose Islam on the same terms they oppose the left?
    Read Orwell's essays from the 1930s/1940s, when the far right were an existential threat, and the far left were looking to the USSR for guidance. He makes the case for a moderate left, based on liberal principles.

  26. #146
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Let's start associating: near enemy over far enemy; better a dog in the backyard than a bear in the kitchen.
    Why should leftists oppose Islam on rightist terms, when rightists oppose Islam on the same terms they oppose the left?
    The Moderate left together with moderate right have pretty much built our world as we know it. Far left and far right are just fringe groups that will hopefully remain so also in the future. Same goes with the religious extremists, no matter of religion. So all three groups have in common is that they have to be somewhat tolerated until they act criminally.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-29-2017 at 19:08.
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  27. #147
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    The left have traditionally been supportive of freedom of thought and conscience. The right have traditionally mandated a "main culture" (that of the ruling majority) and claimed that this culture was under siege.
    No offense intended but I really have to just dismiss that

  28. #148
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    How many people have been killed by humanist terrorist attacks?
    I suppose you could argue that the leftist terror groups of the 60s and 70s were a kind of humanist.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  29. #149
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Which is why it's puzzling that the radical Left ally themselves with conservative Islam...
    I'm not sure they do. I think they are just suspicious of the right and its habit of picking simplistic enemies.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  30. #150
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Literal Attack on British Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I suppose you could argue that the leftist terror groups of the 60s and 70s were a kind of humanist.
    Way before my time then. My only experience of non-Islamist terror is the IRA, and by the time I'd grown up to notice the news, they'd progressed to specifically targeted attacks, and nuisance bombings preceded by phoned warnings. Other than Omagh, nothing as indiscrimnatory as the Islamists, and unlike the republican response to Omagh, the Islamist response to 7/7 was an attempted repeat a few weeks later.

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