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Thread: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

  1. #61
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Why France should put its nuclear deterrent at the service of, say, Latvia or Hungary?
    Why any country should be hostage of others' foreign policy/demands?
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.

    As for Fragony's points. Armies will become mixed and getting cross stationed over the continent. Military drills to Ode to Joy.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.

    As for Fragony's points. Armies will become mixed and getting cross stationed over the continent. Military drills to Ode to Joy.
    Hello George.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  3. #63
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What is also being ignored is that Germany plans to increase military expenditure in the following years.

    Increasing it by 60+% at once isn't really a smart thing to do, as it would be very hard to make sure than money was being spent efficiently.
    Germany has some experience with increasing military expenses very rapidly, though.

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  4. #64
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus View Post
    Germany has some experience with increasing military expenses very rapidly, though.
    It was a longish process to ramp up under the Kaiser, not done quickly.

    The increases made rapidly under the Nazis were done by Speer starting way too late. They didn't truly get their economy shifted from butter to guns much ahead of the USA, despite our late entry.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Speer didn't so much shift production from butter to guns, he standardized and streamlined it.

    It was interesting to hear him talk about it in World at War.

  6. #66
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It was a longish process to ramp up under the Kaiser, not done quickly.

    The increases made rapidly under the Nazis were done by Speer starting way too late. They didn't truly get their economy shifted from butter to guns much ahead of the USA, despite our late entry.
    AFAIK the Prussians pioneered the cadre method after the post-Jena settlement severely restricted the size of their army.

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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.

    Edit: Got EU and NATO wrong way around.
    Last edited by Beskar; 04-15-2017 at 13:39.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.
    ? I must have missed the news..
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.
    Confusing the EU and NATO.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    ? I must have missed the news..
    Gah... was so afraid of beeing wrong I got mind messed.

    Aaaah out of NATO, such luck. I wish our nano-president of ten years ago had not knelt before the neocons. How does it feel to be still an independant country, Finns?

    PS: got a few bucks for "our" nukes, please?
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 04-15-2017 at 12:46.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
    You don't need nukes for a deterrent. Just send your submarines out without missiles.

  13. #73
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Confusing the EU and NATO.
    Correct. I mixed it up.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You don't need nukes for a deterrent. Just send your submarines out without missiles.
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
    Do you actually have some sort of evidence to back these pretty spectacular claims?
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Do you actually have some sort of evidence to back these pretty spectacular claims?
    that italy has not lost one quarter of its industrial capacity since 2008?
    http://www.isigrowth.eu/wp-content/u...per_2016_2.pdf
    euro-membership takes away the old policy prescription of inflating away structural productivity problems, but if the country has no interest in structural reforms it might as well have inflation as a tool in its toolbox.

    or that a 'german' euro isn't 17% undervalued against the dollar in PPP terms?
    http://www.businessinsider.com/r-eur...rs-2017-2?IR=T
    which in opposite balance leaves countries like italy with an overvalued currency relative to the position of its economic performance.
    again, not germany's fault that it introduced the hartz IV reforms in the noughties, which have suppressed the spending power of the german worker an so their appetite for goods which will include imports from neighbouring eu nations, but... you could always transfer wealth;

    or that the eu has been incapable of creating the transfer union necessary to make a common currency area a success, by ensuring less competitive areas are not left behind?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-16-2017 at 11:14.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
    The Italians and Greeks had weak industry to start with and have responded to the challenge with... increasing the pension age to that of Germany? Increasing productivity? Opening their state industries to become more efficient and compete? Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? Erm, no. Mainly centred on complaining and demanding that they are allowed to continue to retire at 55 and the detail can be sorted out elsewhere.

    A Northern League and a Southern League might make sense with broadly the Protestants living ordered, joyless lives of productive industry whilst the Catholics / Orthodox enjoy their pleasant lives of joyful chaos.

    Of course, where the line goes through East Europe, and whether it divides Germany / France is an open question.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.
    Well, there is no Euro-Army, and no EU Federal Government. But there is conflictual interests within Europe.
    So until EU being really a democracy, I don't want the bombs used for other purposes by others countries than for what they are built for: Not be be used. Thanks
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    "Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? " Like in Bangladesh... Very successful and prosperous country, Bangladesh. No holidays, no pension, no health and safety, children free to go to work at 5 years old, a paradise for enterprises.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? " Like in Bangladesh... Very successful and prosperous country, Bangladesh. No holidays, no pension, no health and safety, children free to go to work at 5 years old, a paradise for enterprises.
    With such reasoned arguments, who can compete?

    Perhaps there is something between an ultra-controlled market and a developing country?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    With such reasoned arguments, who can compete?

    Perhaps there is something between an ultra-controlled market and a developing country?

    Bulgaria? Greece? Rural Northumberland? Who decides? The Holy Invisible Hand of the Markets?
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 04-21-2017 at 17:44.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    Bulgaria? Greece? Rural Northumberland? Who decides? The Holy Invisible Hand of the Markets?
    I am gonna take a wild guess and suggest that Rory was referring to The USA, Western Europe, Japan, Mexico....regulated capitalism with varying degrees of government control over portions of the economy related to "social welfare" concerns.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  23. #83
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I am gonna take a wild guess and suggest that Rory was referring to The USA, Western Europe, Japan, Mexico....regulated capitalism with varying degrees of government control over portions of the economy related to "social welfare" concerns.
    Mexico? Is it the level of social welfare we should refer to? Nice. There must be something between hardline capitalism ans state rule on economy, indeed... This one looks to be badly leaning toward the first.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    Mexico? Is it the level of social welfare we should refer to? Nice. There must be something between hardline capitalism ans state rule on economy, indeed... This one looks to be badly leaning toward the first.
    Not asserting that Mexico is an ideal in any way. Just pointing up that there is more than one recipe between the two points, Mexico's differing significantly from the USA etc.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    At some point the EU will end up one of two things. A Germany with a Greek yoke or a German boot crushing a Greek. The other option being to dissolve borders and massively strengthen it. Which won't work, but some people think it will.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    or a German boot crushing a Greek.
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  27. #87
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    "well" depends only on the timeline one is using.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    "well" depends only on the timeline one is using.
    It's too soon to tell?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  29. #89
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    True enough for the 1940s. Though to be fair, Germany had Zero interest in Greece until it felt compelled to pull the Italian's castagne out of the fire.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  30. #90
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    True enough for the 1940s. Though to be fair, Germany had Zero interest in Greece until it felt compelled to pull the Italian's castagne out of the fire.
    Japan had Zero interest in building an empire until the Americans came along.

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