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Thread: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

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    Ask Hooahguy (Not Here) Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Why France should put its nuclear deterrent at the service of, say, Latvia or Hungary?
    Why any country should be hostage of others' foreign policy/demands?
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.

    As for Fragony's points. Armies will become mixed and getting cross stationed over the continent. Military drills to Ode to Joy.
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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.

    As for Fragony's points. Armies will become mixed and getting cross stationed over the continent. Military drills to Ode to Joy.
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  3. #63
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What is also being ignored is that Germany plans to increase military expenditure in the following years.

    Increasing it by 60+% at once isn't really a smart thing to do, as it would be very hard to make sure than money was being spent efficiently.
    Germany has some experience with increasing military expenses very rapidly, though.

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  4. #64
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus View Post
    Germany has some experience with increasing military expenses very rapidly, though.
    It was a longish process to ramp up under the Kaiser, not done quickly.

    The increases made rapidly under the Nazis were done by Speer starting way too late. They didn't truly get their economy shifted from butter to guns much ahead of the USA, despite our late entry.
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  5. #65
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Speer didn't so much shift production from butter to guns, he standardized and streamlined it.

    It was interesting to hear him talk about it in World at War.

  6. #66
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It was a longish process to ramp up under the Kaiser, not done quickly.

    The increases made rapidly under the Nazis were done by Speer starting way too late. They didn't truly get their economy shifted from butter to guns much ahead of the USA, despite our late entry.
    AFAIK the Prussians pioneered the cadre method after the post-Jena settlement severely restricted the size of their army.

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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
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    Ask Hooahguy (Not Here) Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.

    Edit: Got EU and NATO wrong way around.
    Last edited by Beskar; 04-15-2017 at 13:39.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.
    ? I must have missed the news..
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Finland is not in the EU, but Germany is.
    Confusing the EU and NATO.
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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    ? I must have missed the news..
    Gah... was so afraid of beeing wrong I got mind messed.

    Aaaah out of NATO, such luck. I wish our nano-president of ten years ago had not knelt before the neocons. How does it feel to be still an independant country, Finns?

    PS: got a few bucks for "our" nukes, please?
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 04-15-2017 at 12:46.
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  12. #72
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    And ease the tremendous financial burdain the french nuclear component is (thanks!), in order for us to begin a much needed update of our conventionnal forces. I'd like to see that.
    German and finnish friends, would you be pleased to fund EU's nukes? If so, welcome.
    You don't need nukes for a deterrent. Just send your submarines out without missiles.

  13. #73
    Ask Hooahguy (Not Here) Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Confusing the EU and NATO.
    Correct. I mixed it up.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You don't need nukes for a deterrent. Just send your submarines out without missiles.
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
    Do you actually have some sort of evidence to back these pretty spectacular claims?
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Do you actually have some sort of evidence to back these pretty spectacular claims?
    that italy has not lost one quarter of its industrial capacity since 2008?
    http://www.isigrowth.eu/wp-content/u...per_2016_2.pdf
    euro-membership takes away the old policy prescription of inflating away structural productivity problems, but if the country has no interest in structural reforms it might as well have inflation as a tool in its toolbox.

    or that a 'german' euro isn't 17% undervalued against the dollar in PPP terms?
    http://www.businessinsider.com/r-eur...rs-2017-2?IR=T
    which in opposite balance leaves countries like italy with an overvalued currency relative to the position of its economic performance.
    again, not germany's fault that it introduced the hartz IV reforms in the noughties, which have suppressed the spending power of the german worker an so their appetite for goods which will include imports from neighbouring eu nations, but... you could always transfer wealth;

    or that the eu has been incapable of creating the transfer union necessary to make a common currency area a success, by ensuring less competitive areas are not left behind?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-16-2017 at 11:14.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    that was Corbyn's bright idea, no?

    frankly, if germany just spent the missing 0.8% of GDP on investment a government spending, financed by tax rises that would do more for peace a security in europe than any other single act.

    right now the german economy - aided by a suppressed currency - is de-industrialising the rest of southern europe.

    and while we all might hope that italy see's the light, realising that the euro has never don't it a single cent of benefit, and leave..... it ain't gonna happen.

    so step up, germany.
    The Italians and Greeks had weak industry to start with and have responded to the challenge with... increasing the pension age to that of Germany? Increasing productivity? Opening their state industries to become more efficient and compete? Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? Erm, no. Mainly centred on complaining and demanding that they are allowed to continue to retire at 55 and the detail can be sorted out elsewhere.

    A Northern League and a Southern League might make sense with broadly the Protestants living ordered, joyless lives of productive industry whilst the Catholics / Orthodox enjoy their pleasant lives of joyful chaos.

    Of course, where the line goes through East Europe, and whether it divides Germany / France is an open question.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Do Americans complain the Texas nukes are Hostage to New York or Ohio? United States of Europe is the federal government and that will control the Euro-Army.
    Well, there is no Euro-Army, and no EU Federal Government. But there is conflictual interests within Europe.
    So until EU being really a democracy, I don't want the bombs used for other purposes by others countries than for what they are built for: Not be be used. Thanks
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    "Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? " Like in Bangladesh... Very successful and prosperous country, Bangladesh. No holidays, no pension, no health and safety, children free to go to work at 5 years old, a paradise for enterprises.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "Free up the labour market and reduce costs on businesses and encourage new industries? " Like in Bangladesh... Very successful and prosperous country, Bangladesh. No holidays, no pension, no health and safety, children free to go to work at 5 years old, a paradise for enterprises.
    With such reasoned arguments, who can compete?

    Perhaps there is something between an ultra-controlled market and a developing country?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    With such reasoned arguments, who can compete?

    Perhaps there is something between an ultra-controlled market and a developing country?

    Bulgaria? Greece? Rural Northumberland? Who decides? The Holy Invisible Hand of the Markets?
    Last edited by Tristuskhan; 04-21-2017 at 17:44.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    Bulgaria? Greece? Rural Northumberland? Who decides? The Holy Invisible Hand of the Markets?
    I am gonna take a wild guess and suggest that Rory was referring to The USA, Western Europe, Japan, Mexico....regulated capitalism with varying degrees of government control over portions of the economy related to "social welfare" concerns.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I am gonna take a wild guess and suggest that Rory was referring to The USA, Western Europe, Japan, Mexico....regulated capitalism with varying degrees of government control over portions of the economy related to "social welfare" concerns.
    Mexico? Is it the level of social welfare we should refer to? Nice. There must be something between hardline capitalism ans state rule on economy, indeed... This one looks to be badly leaning toward the first.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan View Post
    Mexico? Is it the level of social welfare we should refer to? Nice. There must be something between hardline capitalism ans state rule on economy, indeed... This one looks to be badly leaning toward the first.
    Not asserting that Mexico is an ideal in any way. Just pointing up that there is more than one recipe between the two points, Mexico's differing significantly from the USA etc.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    At some point the EU will end up one of two things. A Germany with a Greek yoke or a German boot crushing a Greek. The other option being to dissolve borders and massively strengthen it. Which won't work, but some people think it will.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

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  26. #86
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    or a German boot crushing a Greek.
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  27. #87
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    "well" depends only on the timeline one is using.
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  28. #88
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    "well" depends only on the timeline one is using.
    It's too soon to tell?
    Vitiate Man.

  29. #89
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Germany did try. It didn't end very well...
    True enough for the 1940s. Though to be fair, Germany had Zero interest in Greece until it felt compelled to pull the Italian's castagne out of the fire.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  30. #90
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    True enough for the 1940s. Though to be fair, Germany had Zero interest in Greece until it felt compelled to pull the Italian's castagne out of the fire.
    Japan had Zero interest in building an empire until the Americans came along.

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