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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #571
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    It seems to be more on the neoliberal side:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Economic_Affairs
    right wing think tank [...] it promotes free market economics [...] The arguably most influential think tank in British history... benefited from the close alignment of IEA's neoliberal agenda with corporate interests and the priorities of the Thatcher government.[3]
    And if you look at these pages, it is even worse:

    https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...onomic_Affairs
    http://tobaccotactics.org/index.php/...onomic_Affairs

    Apparently they believe the markets will fix climate change better than governments:
    https://www.desmogblog.com/institute-economic-affairs
    “Government intervention in the name of energy sustainability is the major threat to real energy sustainability and the provision of affordable, reliable energy to growing economies worldwide. Free-market structures and the wealth generated by markets help communities to best adapt to climate change.” [5]
    And according to this German page, they are climate sceptics and support the Brexit:
    https://lobbypedia.de/wiki/Institute...onomic_Affairs
    Das IEA vertritt klimaskeptische Positionen und befürwortet den Brexit.
    They also have a Facebook page where they rant against government influence:
    https://www.facebook.com/ieauk/
    And a Vimeo channel:
    https://vimeo.com/user4316837/videos

    And they hate traffic lights and think personal cars should be the kings of traffic:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6832546.html

    The said cycling infrastructure, such as advanced stop lines at traffic lights; 20 mph zones in urban areas; and bus priority lanes have "unfortunate" affects on other road users.
    Their view on smoking, alcohol and obesity is very financially-optimistic:
    https://www.west-info.eu/cigarettes-...-public-purse/

    • We estimate a net saving of £14.7 billon per annum at current rates of
    consumption, with the costs smokers incur significantly outweighed by
    the sum of tobacco duty paid and old-age expenditures avoided due to
    premature mortality.
    • The government spends £3.6 billion treating smoking-attributable
    diseases on the NHS and up to £1 billion collecting cigarette butts
    and extinguishing smoking-related house fires. But these costs are
    covered more than four times over by early death savings and tobacco
    duty revenue.
    [...]
    • This paper is the final instalment of a three-part series looking at three
    lifestyle factors that are said to be a drain on taxpayers. The first two
    papers looked at alcohol and obesity respectively. The former incurs a
    gross cost which is amply offset by alcohol duty revenues. The latter
    incurs an annual net cost of up to £2.5 billion. The current paper finds
    that smoking results in a net saving of £19.8 billion. Taken together,
    Britain’s public finances would be £22.8 billion worse off if there were
    no drinking, smoking or obesity.
    That's just going by the search results, leaving out some links about their offspring organizations in Africa etc.
    Now we can wonder and discuss what this says about their reliability when they predict the impact of the Brexit.
    Either way they seem to be very much in favor of the market and of the government making more money, regardless of silly hindrances like dead people.


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  2. #572
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    What I do know about Thatcher's neoliberal advisers, IEA presumably foremost amongst them, is that even she, the most famously neoliberal of UK PMs, considered some of their ideas to be no-gos. She took ideas from them, and moved towards their direction, but the overall picture wasn't their remit. That was the responsibility of government. Government takes the well being of the populace into account when considering the impact of policy ideas. The neoliberal think tanks, infamously, did not, and when their ideas were given full rein in Russia, led to revulsion against the government that implemented them, and turning to Putin as a reaction.

    Thus I ask if these analyses take social impact into account. "Necessary level of government services" is a rather subjective measure, as if the neolibs had their way, the NHS would be done away with entirely, and replaced with a US-style healthcare system. Going by their measure, any government spending on health is unnecessary. Same with pensions, child benefits, housing benefits, and all the other social stuff.

  3. #573

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Neoliberals are to Adam Smith what the CCCP was to Karl Marx?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


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  4. #574
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Looking into it, the IEA does indeed want to do away with the NHS. So all spending in that area is categorised as unnecessary spending on government services. Pensions too. Child benefits...

  5. #575
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The neoliberal think tanks, infamously, did not, and when their ideas were given full rein in Russia, led to revulsion against the government that implemented them, and turning to Putin as a reaction.
    You may also want to check out Chile and the "Chicago boys". It's often cited as a wealthy example of a well-developed South American country, but some 90% or so of that is owned by only four families while mining corporations buy peoples' drinking water literally out of the local area water towers since they need insane amounts of water to scam the government out of the taxes they owe (they use the water to hide the metal content of their exports, then claim it is lower than it actually is and the government privatized/outsourced toll duties and checks to the same private security firms that guard the mines...).

    Either way, if the IEA is as libertarian and pro-Brexit as it sounds, Brexit looks to be great, for rich people in Britain.


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  6. #576
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    You may also want to check out Chile and the "Chicago boys". It's often cited as a wealthy example of a well-developed South American country, but some 90% or so of that is owned by only four families while mining corporations buy peoples' drinking water literally out of the local area water towers since they need insane amounts of water to scam the government out of the taxes they owe (they use the water to hide the metal content of their exports, then claim it is lower than it actually is and the government privatized/outsourced toll duties and checks to the same private security firms that guard the mines...).

    Either way, if the IEA is as libertarian and pro-Brexit as it sounds, Brexit looks to be great, for rich people in Britain.
    And to show that the IEA's ideas aren't just theories being peddled by distant think tanks, the Commons voted to delay one of its brainchilds tonight. Except that the government has insisted that the vote is only advisory, and it is under no obligation to follow the wishes of the Commons vote.

    Wasn't one of the supposedly principled arguments for Brexit that the EU was undemocratic, and that Parliament should be sovereign? Would votes of no confidence in the government also be taken as advisory, with the government under no obligation to follow the wishes of such a Commons vote? Does the IEA count for more than a majority Commons vote?

  7. #577
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It seems to be more on the neoliberal side:

    [blah]

    And they hate traffic lights and think personal cars should be the kings of traffic:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6832546.html

    [some other stuff]

    Either way they seem to be very much in favor of the market and of the government making more money, regardless of silly hindrances like dead people.
    What, you don't like my 'experts'?
    What a positively leaver'ish attitude.

    Which is the short way of saying; nice attempt to play the man and not the ball, but the essential finding is not new, you just don't like it: growth will be faster with less spending.

    This is the political economy, i'm not obliged to justify my support for the measure any more than you are your political compass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Erm, how economically and politically credible is the IEA? I've spoken before about my contempt for the neoliberal economic theorists who advocated hardcore adoption of their theories in Yeltsin's Russia while they lived a continent and an ocean away. From what I can see, the IEA is one of these very same neolib think tanks. Does it talk about the social impact of their economic analyses? Because that was what did for Yeltsin's Russia.

    How economically and political credible is any political thinktank in this country?
    Progress..., any of the others?

    This objection doesn't amount to anything, other than a dislikeof what it says. I've spoken before about my contempt for the eu enthusiasts who advanced hardcore adoption of eu integration even while soft-pedalling the effects of their work. In using ever-closer-union, it was essentially gerrymandering a statist leftward drift that the electorate would not countenance to the ballot box.

    But so what, you're not obliged to care about or support my views on this.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-19-2017 at 08:01.
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  8. #578
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    What, you don't like my 'experts'?
    What a positively leaver'ish attitude.

    Which is the short way of saying; nice attempt to play the man and not the ball, but the essential finding is not new, you just don't like it: growth will be faster with less spending.
    You got an overall picture from neoliberal theorists. Not even Maggie Thatcher got her overall picture from neoliberal theorists. And she certainly didn't form her social policies based entirely on an overall picture from neoliberal theorists, as you're suggesting. That was a bit too loony even for her.

  9. #579
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    How economically and political credible is any political thinktank in this country?
    Progress..., any of the others?

    This objection doesn't amount to anything, other than a dislikeof what it says. I've spoken before about my contempt for the eu enthusiasts who advanced hardcore adoption of eu integration even while soft-pedalling the effects of their work. In using ever-closer-union, it was essentially gerrymandering a statist leftward drift that the electorate would not countenance to the ballot box.

    But so what, you're not obliged to care about or support my views on this.
    Your measure was this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    spent 5% more GDP than it needed to on government services. Compound growth (or the lack thereof) is a bitch!
    This measure does not just measure government spending. It also judges said level of government spending to be more than needed for services. So we look at what the studiers deem to be needed government services. They consistently deem the NHS to be unnecessary government spending that should cease. And pensions. And child benefits. Housing benefits. And every other kind of benefit. And as Husar has found, they deem even traffic lights to be unneeded government spending that we can do without, as it adversely affects economic performance. And as your second sentence above shows, not only do you take your word for what they deem to be unneeded government spending, you also take their word on economic performance given their recommended level of government spending. Does this mean you support the abolition of traffic lights too? Let those pesky kids take their chances when crossing the road from the bus stop to school. Road accidents are natural wastage, and those whose parents don't drive them all the way inside the school gates aren't likely to be of economic use anyway.

  10. #580
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    What, you don't like my 'experts'?
    What a positively leaver'ish attitude.

    Which is the short way of saying; nice attempt to play the man and not the ball, but the essential finding is not new, you just don't like it: growth will be faster with less spending.

    This is the political economy, i'm not obliged to justify my support for the measure any more than you are your political compass.
    That's ridiculous.
    You cut out the part where I say the actual merit of their calculations cannot necessarily be directly derived from my findings (though Pannonian just provided an idea of how it can be done), which I obviously don't like, and then call me biased because I don't like them...
    I was being entirely fair towards their numbers, Pannonian asked how trustworthy they (the people who came up with the numbers) are and I gave my opinion on that based on what I found.

    You're being a hypocrite in that if you dismiss my opinion due to my bias, but take their position for granted despite their bias towards a Brexit. At least I don't hide my bias like they do their Exxon Mobile donations...
    Besides, it's not like you're the neutral one here either way.


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  11. #581
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Your measure was this.



    This measure does not just measure government spending. It also judges said level of government spending to be more than needed for services. So we look at what the studiers deem to be needed government services. They consistently deem the NHS to be unnecessary government spending that should cease. And pensions. And child benefits. Housing benefits. And every other kind of benefit. And as Husar has found, they deem even traffic lights to be unneeded government spending that we can do without, as it adversely affects economic performance. And as your second sentence above shows, not only do you take your word for what they deem to be unneeded government spending, you also take their word on economic performance given their recommended level of government spending. Does this mean you support the abolition of traffic lights too? Let those pesky kids take their chances when crossing the road from the bus stop to school. Road accidents are natural wastage, and those whose parents don't drive them all the way inside the school gates aren't likely to be of economic use anyway.
    The IEA hasn't just sprung this out of a hat.
    There has been research going back many years suggesting that increased government spending results in reduced economic growth potential. And they worked to the same rough metrix: 1% spending = 0.1% growth.
    If you disagree, demonstrate why it is wrong rather than obsessing about neo-liberals.
    As to who decides what is an appropriate level of government spending: Me, you, every other UK voter.
    Think we should spend more, fine, but i'm in no way obliged (morally or otherwise), to support that contention.

    That aside, I am surprised that you chose to focus on an aside rather than my direct response to something you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Erm, not all of us care about immigration.
    In fact the ashcroft exit polls confirmed that it was not the most significant motivation by a long shot.
    Nor too do all of us give a damn about the £350m/year promise for the NHS.

    Some of us (me included), simply believed it was a poor form of governance. One that demonstrated its rank inadequacy in the renegotiation when belgium et-al demanded the exemption from ever-closer-union must apply only to britain.
    Which is after all the topic of this discussion, and one i'd be happy to continue...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-19-2017 at 14:02.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That's ridiculous.
    You cut out the part where I say the actual merit of their calculations cannot necessarily be directly derived from my findings (though Pannonian just provided an idea of how it can be done), which I obviously don't like, and then call me biased because I don't like them...
    I was being entirely fair towards their numbers, Pannonian asked how trustworthy they (the people who came up with the numbers) are and I gave my opinion on that based on what I found.

    You're being a hypocrite in that if you dismiss my opinion due to my bias, but take their position for granted despite their bias towards a Brexit. At least I don't hide my bias like they do their Exxon Mobile donations...
    Besides, it's not like you're the neutral one here either way.
    How generous of you to provide that proviso after all the text slating the source.
    Newsflash, i'm not frightened by the terms neo-liberal or right-wing, if they have something to say that we don't like then attack the premise not the vendor.

    That is in no way hypocritical; you haven't come within a country mile of attempting to rebut the premise, i merely noted in public that deficit.

    Again, we're obsessing about an aside; i'd far rather challenge the notion implicit in the original quoted comment that leavers were thick working class racists at deaths door. Something that had appeared to be unchallenged at this point.

    It's a little deeper than closet racism:
    https://www.the-american-interest.co...ats-globalism/

    Brexit - a middle class affair:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQlFcMpO3Uk

    Leavers far more concerned with sovereignty than immigation AND security:
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

    Discuss...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-19-2017 at 14:00.
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  13. #583
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    That is in no way hypocritical; you haven't come within a country mile of attempting to rebut the premise, i merely noted in public that deficit.
    I didn't set out to rebut anything.

    Pannonian asked for the trustworthiness of the institute and that's what I replied to.
    I'm not really interested in proving anything about the impact of Brexit on Britain because that's like, your problem now.


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  14. #584
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    How generous of you to provide that proviso after all the text slating the source.
    Newsflash, i'm not frightened by the terms neo-liberal or right-wing, if they have something to say that we don't like then attack the premise not the vendor.

    That is in no way hypocritical; you haven't come within a country mile of attempting to rebut the premise, i merely noted in public that deficit.

    Again, we're obsessing about an aside; i'd far rather challenge the notion implicit in the original quoted comment that leavers were thick working class racists at deaths door. Something that had appeared to be unchallenged at this point.

    It's a little deeper than closet racism:
    https://www.the-american-interest.co...ats-globalism/

    Brexit - a middle class affair:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQlFcMpO3Uk

    Leavers far more concerned with sovereignty than immigation AND security:
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

    Discuss...
    Does sovereignty mean doing what the House of Commons says the government should do? Or has that been invalidated by the Great Repeal Bill?

  15. #585
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Government takes the well being of the populace into account when considering the impact of policy ideas. The neoliberal think tanks, infamously, did not, and when their ideas were given full rein in Russia, led to revulsion against the government that implemented them, and turning to Putin as a reaction.
    I'm afraid you simplify the reasons why Russians have turned to Putin. It was not just a reaction which you describe. Many other factors weighed in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  16. #586
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I'm afraid you simplify the reasons why Russians have turned to Putin. It was not just a reaction which you describe. Many other factors weighed in.
    The screwed up state of Yeltsin's Russia was a big factor behind them turning, in a big way, towards nationalism. Putin's career has been a promise that the outside world won't be allowed to around with Russia any more, but Russia will once again with the outside world.

  17. #587
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The screwed up state of Yeltsin's Russia was a big factor behind them turning, in a big way, towards nationalism. Putin's career has been a promise that the outside world won't be allowed to around with Russia any more, but Russia will once again with the outside world.
    When Putin took over he continued to make overtures to the West. It was gradually that Russia turned the way it did having grown fat on expensive oil. What put Putin on the throne is his stance on the Chechen war, the general fear of terroristic attacks within Russia (after the ones purpotedly organized by FSB) and him being younger and contrastingly virile in comparison to senile alcoholic Yeltsin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  18. #588
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Another leaked Treasury document from the studies on Brexit's impact that David Davis, the minister in charge of Brexit, is trying to suppress. The list of analyses range from very bad to catastrophic. They start with losing all the benefits of being an EU member, with an estimated loss to the average household of over £5k. They go into detail for each sector of industry and trade, with the effects starting bad (over a quarter of farms currently making a profit will turn into loss makers after Brexit), but long terms will turn even worse as we lose the benefit of being part of the largest trading bloc in the world, with competitors proven to be predatory and only reversed by the EU's clout.

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  19. #589
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does sovereignty mean doing what the House of Commons says the government should do? Or has that been invalidated by the Great Repeal Bill?
    Yes. And parliament will improve the repeal bill, this is the normal give and take process that parliament has always operated by.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Yes. And parliament will improve the repeal bill, this is the normal give and take process that parliament has always operated by.
    So should the government ignore the vote on Universal Credit (the brainchild of your beloved IEA) until the Great Repeal Bill can be perfected? The Commons has voted on UC and passed the opposition vote unanimously. The government says it is purely advisory and is under no obligation to act on it. Will every other Commons vote that goes against it also be seen as purely advisory and ignorable by the government? Should we just dissolve Parliament until it's time for the next General Election, as it has no power or sovereignty anyway?

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    i'm not sure i understand the problem; parliament has procedure and precedent. this was just another example of that.

    does anything more need to be said?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...iversal-credit
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So should the government ignore the vote on Universal Credit (the brainchild of your beloved IEA) until the Great Repeal Bill can be perfected? The Commons has voted on UC and passed the opposition vote unanimously. The government says it is purely advisory and is under no obligation to act on it. Will every other Commons vote that goes against it also be seen as purely advisory and ignorable by the government? Should we just dissolve Parliament until it's time for the next General Election, as it has no power or sovereignty anyway?
    [Charles Windsor slowly rubbed his hands together...savoring the imminent irrelevance of the commons and the return of sovereignty to...the Sovereign. {queue in appropriate low key triumphal music here, gradually swelling volume}]
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  23. #593
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Game set match for the UK it seems

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Game set match for the UK it seems
    Have you told Theresa May that? She could do with some cheering up.

  25. #595
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Have you told Theresa May that? She could do with some cheering up.
    Well send her the good news I'd say, she gets her trading negotiations. But she already knows that

    Don't take my word for it, ask Bernier
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-24-2017 at 11:06. Reason: fixed

  26. #596
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Well send her the good news I'd say, she gets her trading negotiations. But she already knows that

    Don't take my word for it, ask Bernier
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has warned that Britain can expect a trade deal little better than the one the EU struck with Canada – and even that would take years to negotiate, despite Theresa May’s claims to the contrary over Britain’s future after Brexit.

    Barnier said he could envision a short transition period being agreed between the EU and the UK before March 2019 to ease the UK’s exit from the bloc, but it would require the British government accepting the continuation of EU law and the jurisdiction of the European court of justice.

    A future trade deal, however, would have to be negotiated over “several years” and “will be very different” from the status quo, Barnier told a group of European newspapers.

    “If we reach an agreement on the orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom, such a [transition] period, both short and framed, is possible,” he said. “To my mind, it makes sense that it covers the financial period, so until 2020. It would leave us more time to prepare for the future relationship.

    “But I insist on one point: such a period would be possible only if it is framed by the maintenance of all of the regulatory architecture and European supervision, including jurisdictional. It would maintain the economic status quo and all obligations of the UK.”

    “From the moment the UK told us that it wants out of the single market and the customs union, we will have to work on a model that is closer to the agreement signed with Canada.

    “The single market is a set of rules and standards and is a shared jurisdiction. Its integrity is non-negotiable, as is the autonomy of decisions of the 27. Either you’re in or you’re out.”

    The deal struck between the EU and Canada, known as the the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA), lifts 98% of tariffs on imports between the two parties, and was a significant move towards freer trade.

    It does not, however, significantly reduce non-tariff barriers for trade and traditional rules-of-origin regulations would apply for the UK’s exports to the EU, under such a deal.

    If the non-EU import content of a UK export was too high, for example, there would be a loss of duty-free access for particular sensitive industrial goods, notably cars. A lack of regulatory harmonisation for medicines, automobiles and aircraft equipment would also require products being checked at the border.

    A deal similar to CETA would furthermore offer little to the UK’s vital financial services sector post-Brexit, when businesses located in the City will lose their automatic right to offer their services across the EU.

    Barnier said of the negotiations over the future that they would be highly complex and would take many years before they could be put to the national parliaments for ratification.

    He said: “The two phases are difficult. The second will be very different and will last several years. It is truly unique because instead of promoting regulatory convergence, it will aim to frame a difference. It will involve risks, including about its political ratification, making all the more necessary transparency around these topics.”

    Barnier’s comments appeared to contradict the prime minister’s claims in the House of Commons on Monday that the details of a future trade deal would be settled before the UK left the bloc. May has insisted this will be necessary to allow the implementation in changes to customs controls, for example, in the two years directly after March 2019.

    The prime minister had suggested in her Florence speech in September that a deal between the UK and the EU would be far more advanced than that struck with Canada, claiming that such a deal “compared with what exists between Britain and the EU today would represent such a restriction on our mutual market access that it would benefit neither of our economies”.

    May added in her speech in Italy: “Not only that, it would start from the false premise that there is no pre-existing regulatory relationship between us. And precedent suggests that it could take years to negotiate. We can do so much better than this.”

    However, Barnier appeared to offer the British government little hope of such an advance on the Canadian deal being possible, although he acknowledged his team was working on the details of an exit treaty.

    He said: “The strategic interest of our continent is to partner with this very large country with a permanent seat on the United Nations security council. But this is not a reason to undermine the single market.”

    Of a no-deal scenario, Barnier said: “We do not want it at all, but we do not exclude any option. Such a scenario would cause us problems, and much larger [ones] in the UK.

    “I will give you some examples. In London, to leave the Euratom treaty without an agreement would mean immediate problems for the import of nuclear material, whether for nuclear power plants or hospitals.

    “That would mean leaving the single European sky agreement, and no longer being able to mutually recognise pilot qualifications or get take off or landing clearance. And what would happen to the food products imported into the United Kingdom? There would immediately be customs controls, perhaps taxes. That’s why I want a deal.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...michel-barnier


    The non-political parts of UK's government back the EU's version of reality.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 10-24-2017 at 13:15.

  27. #597
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Having to followv EU jursdiction for trading? zas if that was ever possible to not to they are basicly saying nothing, You should be happy right now. The brexit has been accepted as a given and almost nothing is really comming into your way except limitations you already (mostly) have. It's time for you to take a relieved breath of air because you were obviously very worried, not unscatched but hardly broken no?

  28. #598
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Having to followv EU jursdiction for trading? zas if that was ever possible to not to they are basicly saying nothing, You should be happy right now. The brexit has been accepted as a given and almost nothing is really comming into your way except limitations you already (mostly) have. It's time for you to take a relieved breath of air because you were obviously very worried, not unscatched but hardly broken no?
    This sounds like a wonderful poem from Dreamland. Unfortunately the UK hasn't left this mortal coil for higher spheres yet and is still working within the confines of reality. Maybe they should elect someone who is a "dealmaker"?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  29. #599
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    This sounds like a wonderful poem from Dreamland. Unfortunately the UK hasn't left this mortal coil for higher spheres yet and is still working within the confines of reality. Maybe they should elect someone who is a "dealmaker"?
    The civil service, business organisations, basically everyone charged with dealing with reality as opposed to what they wish reality were, are saying different things to what Frag is saying. And Frag says it's all to the good, whilst maintaining there is no chance whatsoever of him actually coming over here to live outside the EU. What was that I keep saying about Anglo-American neoliberals in the 90s and their hold on Yeltsin's Russia?

  30. #600
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Can't you see good news when you see it? You must be of Russian heritage with fatalism like that

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