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Thread: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38883556

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...ferendum,_2017

    Turkey is going to hold a Referendum in April on whether to abolish the post of Prime Minister and transfer executive functions to the President. Parliament will also lose a lot of its ability to scrutinise the executive, conduct enquiries, that sort of thing.

    Now the question, really, is whether the military saw this coming and dried to stop it or if they helped it along with the attempted coup.

    Regardless, Turkey is now in great danger of falling into the trap of being "just another" Middle Eastern tin-pot Republic like Egypt.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    We can now add Attaturk's coffin to the list of sources of clean rotational energy.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-12-2017 at 03:40.
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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    This is what brain drain gets you.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

    Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    To be honest, from I know of Ataturk's constitutional system, it was inherently reliant on a military ready to perform coups ('for the people') to restore the government to its original state. This is not the most well thought out structure for several reasons...
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    To be honest, from I know of Ataturk's constitutional system, it was inherently reliant on a military ready to perform coups ('for the people') to restore the government to its original state. This is not the most well thought out structure for several reasons...
    One can only do what one can with what one has. The region has a strong tendency towards religious nutterism. The most "western" state in the region, Israel, is only so because of continued efforts by liberals and socialists. And even they have to pander to the religious nutters to some extent.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    If they keep killing each other over there, hopefully they'll forget about is over here.

    Most states in the Middle East have boundaries that make little sense from our "Western" standpoint of self determination (or most of the time, our populace is to apathetic to try to gain freedom - barring Catalonia) and are glued together by violence and the threat of more violence.

    In such environments people seem to tend to turn to strong (generally) men to Sort Things Out.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    our populace is to apathetic to try to gain freedom - barring Catalonia
    ... and Scotland.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Scotland got a vote. They voted no. Seems they'd like to stay in and continue to whine rather than be independent and deal with the world.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Plus Scotland hasnt waged a terror campaign in the last 50 years.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Wales has, though.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Plus Scotland hasnt waged a terror campaign in the last 50 years.
    Have Catalonian exiters had? You mix them up with the Basques.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink



    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Maybe I should have qualified it as competent terror campaigns.

    Scottish nationalist actions have a habit of turning into laurel and hardy routines, see the theft of the stone of scone.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-16-2017 at 20:23.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Well, the group was established less than 40 years ago and it dissolved more than 20 years ago, so I don't understand how it has been waging a terror campaign for the last 50 years.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    I said In the last 50 years. not for.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Newspeak is doubleplus good. Oldspeak is oldthink. Oldthink is badthink. Badthink is thoughtcrime.

    Forbidden.

    Report doubleplus speedwise to thinkpol.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-22-2017 at 04:37.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  19. #19
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    There seems to be a growing conflict between certain EU nations and Turkey.

    Austria denied speeches by Turkish politicians and made Erdogan angry:

    http://www.thelocal.at/20170301/turk...ign-in-austria
    Turkey has slammed Austria's "double standard" and "irresponsible" approach to potential campaigning by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in the EU member state ahead of April's referendum.
    Then some German town cancelled a rally planned by a Turkish minister, making Erdogan even angrier:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/06/turke...zi-period.html
    Erdogan is furious over the cancellation of several political rallies aimed at drumming up support among Germany's large ethnic Turkish population for his plans to overhaul Turkey'sconstitution and win greater powers for the presidency.

    On Sunday the Turkish leader accused Germany of "fascist actions" reminiscent of the Nazi era. Berlin says the rallies were cancelled on security grounds.
    And then the Dutch wanted in on the fun and denied the Turkish foreign minister the right to land when he came to hold a rally there:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...nds-escalates/
    Turkey and Holland engaged in an explosive diplomatic row on Saturday, with the Dutch government refusing to allow the Turkish foreign minister into the country and Turkey’s president in turn branding the Dutch as “Nazi remnants”.
    I can't find any English news on it, but Austrian and German EU officials are already talking about freezing certain financial aid transactions which can be cancelled without entirely cancelling the membership talks. The Austrian PM called for an EU-wide ban on Turkish political rallies around Turkish statesmen. A lot of people think the membership talks should be cancelled entirely, 77% of Germans think Turkish politicians should not be allowed to come here to advertize their politics in Turkey and so on.
    http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/...9160ec5b8.html
    (Picture 13/18)

    I personally agree that it is very strange to have foreign ministers come her to advocate foreign policy options, and it's even weirder that they throw a tantrum when we say we don't like it. Even worse of course if we look beyond their lies about how terrible we supposedly are and see that they are bombing one Kurdish town after the other out of existence, suppress the free press and so on. And then they say they are more democratic than we are...
    There was even that time when Turkey banned German ministers from visiting German troops that were stationed in Turkey to help defend Turkey...

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ca...-turkey-media/
    Turkey has earned an accolade which holds no glory: according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, it is the biggest jailer of journalists in the world.
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/05/10/...tment-refugees
    Turkey’s once-open door with Syria is now a concrete wall and razor-wire where Turkish border guards are shooting and beating Syrian civilians trying to escape the violence. In a new report Human Rights Watch documents seven incidents since early March in which Turkish border guards killed five people, including a child and woman, and seriously injured 14 others, including three children.
    [...]
    But a Human Rights Watch investigation has already shown that the area Turkey markets as a safe zone is, in fact, more of a death trap, with ISIS military gains into that area forcing tens of thousands of Syrians once again to flee toward Turkey’s freshly cemented wall and trigger-happy border guards.
    http://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/8/14...a-refugees-aid
    More than 90 percent of Syrian refugees in Turkey are actually living outside of refugee camps, struggling to make ends meet, sometimes in the streets. And a News Deeply report last summer found that those in camps are uniquely vulnerable to exploitation, with many refugees being used as low-paid migrant farm workers. While Turkey was initially welcoming to Syrian refugees, as the crisis has worn on and the reality sets in that refugees will likely be permanent members of Turkish society, that welcome has begun to wear thin.
    Which also shows how nicely the idea of refugees going to neighboring countries can work in humanitarian terms.
    Either way, the country is really going down a terrible path it seems.
    And given that they're officially our allies, should we respond in some way?
    Last edited by Husar; 03-11-2017 at 18:15.


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  20. #20
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    The situation escalates in the Netherlands:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ing-turkish-mp
    Turkish authorities have sealed off the Dutch embassy and consulate, sources at Turkey’s foreign ministry have said, in the latest incident in a tit-for-tat row between the two countries over Turkish campaigning in Europe.

    Turkey also closed off the residences of the Dutch ambassador, charge d’affaires and consul general as tensions between the Nato partners escalated after the Dutch government barred Turkey’s foreign minister from flying to Rotterdam.

    Turkey’s families minister, Fatma Betul Sayan Kaya, was also blocked by Dutch police from entering the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam, NOS News reported.
    Looks like the Dutch put up a fight after Cavusoglu held a speech from the Consulate in Hamburg in an obvious attempt to circumvent the restrictions placed on the planned political gatherings.

    https://www.thelocal.de/20170308/def...hamburg-speech
    "Please, don't give us lessons in human rights and democracy," the minister said, as he spoke to a crowd of some 200 Turkish government supporters gathered at the residence of their country's consul in the northern city of Hamburg.
    Emphasis mine in both quotes.

    It almost seems like a game of cat and mouse or whackamole with Turkish ministers weaseling all over Europe to hold speeches while European authorities try to prevent it and close the loopholes.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    They are breaking their own laws comming here, not sure if they are breaking ours. Don't know what to make of this at the moment.

    Little update, foreign afairs refuses to fascilitate this obvious provocation, as their safity can't be guarantied it's up to the major to deny them entry and that is what happened. About time that neo-sultan gets the finger I'd say
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-12-2017 at 00:30.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They are breaking their own laws comming here, not sure if they are breaking ours. Don't know what to make of this at the moment.
    You're right, I forgot about that.

    Turkish laws actually forbid political campaigns abroad, which just adds more to the big pile of shame that this affair is.

    http://www.dpa-international.com/top...0309-99-595734
    The relevant section of the law is Article 94/A of the general election law, which explicitly bans campaigning abroad or in foreign diplomatic missions.

    Mehmet Hadimi Yakupoglu, who is part of the election commission from the opposition People's Republican Party (CHP), confirmed that the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) enacted the administrative provision in 2008. Most major parties violate the rule.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Riot-police are slamming down Erdogan-supporters at the moment. The neo-sultan overstepped, the usual discrimination-card won't work as Rotterdam's major is a muslim himself. Erdogan is a very dangerous man and I think it's good he suffers this humiliation, Germany couldn't act because of Merkel's deal but Turkey isn't all that important for the Netherlands. Good game so far imo

    edit, well she is all yours now she is persona non gratta and escorted back to Germany
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-12-2017 at 01:50.
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    this supports and the people from

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    For once it seems the riots aren't about religion but national identity with rioters flying turkish flags on the streets of rotterdam.



    This brings up the question of why there are so many unassimilated turks in one dutch city.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-12-2017 at 03:47.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    If Germany is going to permit foreign politicians to campaign to German citizens and residents, they could at least ask in return that Turkey revert certain changes made toward police statism.

    The only real solution is to grab the refugee problem by its balls and occupy and operate designated "refugee cities" in (at least) Syria and Iraq under UN mandate. This might have been more accessible a year ago, before Turkey was quite so entrenched in Syria, and the United States expected to offer more cooperation.
    Vitiate Man.

  26. #26
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Eastern-European countries already closed the Balkan route Turkey can scream and threaten all they want. Bigger problem is a considerable Turkish population, often fiercely nationalistic (or scared of them, with good reason, Turks are encouraged to rat on eachother), especially in Germany.
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-12-2017 at 10:40.
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    this supports and the people from

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Wow, this is really getting quite serious, isn't it?

    I read an article, which I now can't find, about how all this plays in Erodogen's favour back in Turkey, making it more likely he'll win the referendum. However, there's not a lot European nations can do other than what they are doing - especially as the Turkish ministers are breaching Turkish law.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  28. #28
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    For once it seems the riots aren't about religion but national identity with rioters flying turkish flags on the streets of rotterdam.
    Is that why some of them are shouting "Allahu akbar"? I think with AKP supporters the two issues are rather mixed. Beyond economic success the party also stands for re-islamization AFAIK and their success regarding the former is doubtful...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    This brings up the question of why there are so many unassimilated turks in one dutch city.
    Racism. If noone talks to you, you don't switch identities but keep the one you already had. It's a bit like why are there entire Chinatowns in US cities and towns that look like Bavarian towns in the US. Immigrants and natives are terrible people, don't get me started on UK and Spanish immigrants slaughtering the natives on two/three continents.
    Last edited by Husar; 03-12-2017 at 13:12.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Wow, this is really getting quite serious, isn't it?

    I read an article, which I now can't find, about how all this plays in Erodogen's favour back in Turkey, making it more likely he'll win the referendum. However, there's not a lot European nations can do other than what they are doing - especially as the Turkish ministers are breaching Turkish law.
    Went down pretty calm here, few arrests. I don't know if this is good for Erdogan as he didn't get away with it
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    Default Re: Turkish Democracy - on the brink

    Anything that shows the West to be unsupportive of Turkish "Honor," can be spun to enhance Erdogan's position internally. No tactical win is necessary. The "strangers don't like and respect us" card has been a political staple since Sargon, if not earlier.

    After the failed coup, I pretty well wrote Turkey off as a "Western" nation, at least for the time being. I don't think they will go full Sharia and discard parliamentary governance entirely, but they will trend that way a good bit for some time. Interesting to see if they will stay NATO with all of this...but I have my doubts as NATO is conflated with "America's lackies" in too many Arab/Islamic minds.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

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