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Thread: UK General Election 2017

  1. #61
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    He worded it in a difficult way, but that's what he said, that you believe a non-elected head of state limits the possibility of autocracy in the UK.
    It is odd to think of the house of Windsor as a bulwark of British Democracy, yet I think I must agree. Just by existing, given the weight of tradition etc., they serve as an impediment to dictatorship.
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  2. #62
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    He worded it in a difficult way, but that's what he said, that you believe a non-elected head of state limits the possibility of autocracy in the UK.
    But the Queen has all the power. Theresa May is just a transient minister, albeit the one who (mostly) exercises the Queen's power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It is odd to think of the house of Windsor as a bulwark of British Democracy, yet I think I must agree. Just by existing, given the weight of tradition etc., they serve as an impediment to dictatorship.
    This is not only true in the UK, even the more recent and more autocratic monarchs in Europe made it harder for dictatorship to "bed in" over the long-term.

    In the case of both Italy and Romania the nations switched sides during WWI after the monarch/monarchist forces ousted the Fascist government.

    The British Royal Family are the best at the "monarchy as democracy" thing though, partly because of long tradition but also partly because they have - since Queen Victoria - cultivated an image as "basically decent people."

    The Queen is very popular, and whilst Prince Charles is often made fun of rarely is his character attacked. When it comes his time to be King you will find that the Commonwealth Realms will all accept him, I believe, because any alternative is more uncertain.
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  3. #63
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The Queen is very popular, and whilst Prince Charles is often made fun of rarely is his character attacked. When it comes his time to be King you will find that the Commonwealth Realms will all accept him, I believe, because any alternative is more uncertain.
    There are calls for William to be next in-line instead, Charles has a number of opponents who would prefer to skip him.
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  4. #64
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    In the case of both Italy and Romania the nations switched sides during WWI after the monarch/monarchist forces ousted the Fascist government.
    I saw pictures of a pre-war royal child giving a nazi salute. So she kinda switched sides too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    When it comes his time to be King you will find that the Commonwealth Realms will all accept him, I believe, because any alternative is more uncertain.
    The alternative to Charles III might be William V.
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  5. #65
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I saw pictures of a pre-war royal child giving a nazi salute. So she kinda switched sides too.
    You're attacking someone for a photo taken when they were a kid?

  6. #66
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Doubly wrong as the gesture at the time had different connotations to what it has now. As far as many were concerned it was still the roman salute.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 04-25-2017 at 14:55.
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  7. #67
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You're attacking someone for a photo taken when they were a kid?
    Am I attacking anyone? I referred to a universally known fact that at that time it was kinda fashion, infatuation with (at least) outward appanages of German nazism. Many people were "guilty"of this passion and the royal family was not an exception. It proves the fact that no one can deem himself superior to others and taunt their switching sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Doubly wrong as the gesture at the time had different connotations to what it has now.
    Expound, please.
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  8. #68
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Am I attacking anyone? I referred to a universally known fact that at that time it was kinda fashion, infatuation with (at least) outward appanages of German nazism. Many people were "guilty"of this passion and the royal family was not an exception. It proves the fact that no one can deem himself superior to others and taunt their switching sides.
    The British royal family, Edward VIII apart, were clearly enough opposed to Nazi Germany after 1939. Of course, not everyone in Europe were as opposed to the Nazis. Ukraine, for example, were pretty pro-Nazi after 1939.

  9. #69
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Conservatives are so desperate, they are resorting to fake news about Corbyn again. If he is so unelectable, they wouldn't need to invent things, would they?
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  10. #70
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    What's that from? Ie. what's the source?

  11. #71
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    ..The Queen is very popular, and whilst Prince Charles is often made fun of rarely is his character attacked. When it comes his time to be King you will find that the Commonwealth Realms will all accept him, I believe, because any alternative is more uncertain.
    The only scandals associated with them in the USA are a tendency toward marital infidelity by Charles, Diana, the erstwhile Yorks. Nothing regarding policy misrepresentation or failing in ambassadorial duties is bruited about over here. The Younger set are very well thought of.
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  12. #72
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Conservatives are so desperate, they are resorting to fake news about Corbyn again. If he is so unelectable, they wouldn't need to invent things, would they?
    Only Left-wing media publish fake news. Good conservative outlets are simply using alternative facts and reporting those.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  13. #73
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The British royal family, Edward VIII apart, were clearly enough opposed to Nazi Germany after 1939. Of course, not everyone in Europe were as opposed to the Nazis. Ukraine, for example, were pretty pro-Nazi after 1939.
    If you want to flaunt the UK opposing nazis I showed why you can't do this without reservations. As for Ukraine being pro-Nazi, it is not true.

    First of all there was no Ukraine as a separate state in 1939, not until 1991. It is true, though, that the USSR was allied with Germany in 1939, but can Ukraine be considered more pro-Nazi than other 15 (at that time) Soviet republics? I don't think so. The responsibility for entering into alliance with Germany lies on the authorities of the USSR, not on non-existent independent Ukraine. Moreover, shall I remind you of Chamberlain's treachery to Czechoslovakia after hobnobbing with Hitler in Munich in 1938? Can we conclude that Britan was pro-nazi?

    It is also true that there were some Ukrainians who welcomed German invasion. Does it make them pro-Nazi? I think this weclome is the reaction to the Soviet regime's policies to the people of Ukraine (and other USSR nations, btw). Were Ukrainians unique in their stance? No. The British can't be said to have suffered from a similar treatment by their own governmnet, but I can remember a picture of some British grocer sporting a sign "business as usual, Mr. Hitler". Can we conclude that Britan was pro-nazi?

    So: I understand that you are hurt by any innuendoes that Britain wasn't (always) a lily-white everlasting opponent of Nazis. But the facts show that your stereotype isn't totally correct. As well as another stereotype of Ukraine "being pro-Nazi" after 1939 or in any other time.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 04-25-2017 at 17:12.
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  14. #74
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    If you want to flaunt the UK opposing nazis I showed why you can't do this without reservations. As for Ukraine being pro-Nazi, it is not true.

    First of all there was no Ukraine as a separate state in 1939, not until 1991. It is true, though, that the USSR was allied with Germany in 1939, but can Ukraine be considered more pro-Nazi than other 15 (at that time) Soviet republics? I don't think so. The responsibility for entering into alliance with Germany lies on the authorities of the USSR, not on non-existent independent Ukraine. Moreover, shall I remind you of Chamberlain's treachery to Czechoslovakia after hobnobbing with Hitler in Munich in 1938? Can we conclude that Britan was pro-nazi?

    It is also true that there were some Ukrainians who welcomed German invasion. Does it make them pro-Nazi? I think this weclome is the reaction to the Soviet regime's policies to the people of Ukraine (and other USSR nations, btw). Were Ukrainians unique in their stance? No. The British can't be said to have suffered from a similar treatment by their own governmnet, but I can remember a picture of some British grocer sporting a sign "business as usual, Mr. Hitler". Can we conclude that Britan was pro-nazi?

    So: I understand that you are hurt by any innuendoes that Britain wasn't (always) a lily-white everlasting opponent of Nazis. But the facts show that your stereotype isn't totally correct. As well as another stereotype of Ukraine "being pro-Nazi" after 1939 or in any other time.
    Ukraine were more pro-Nazi than the royals as a set generally were (eg. Ukrainian concentration camp guards were noted by inmates as particularly brutal). If anything, from George V onwards, the British royals revised their image to more more British than the British, and defined their Britishness as Germanophobia. Which reflected anti-German sentiments in common British society. Pro-Nazi sentiments weren't likely to be popular in Britain, if only because Brits in general hated Germans.

  15. #75

    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Conservatives are so desperate, they are resorting to fake news about Corbyn again. If he is so unelectable, they wouldn't need to invent things, would they?
    Was that news, or tabloid/Internet mockery?
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  16. #76
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Was that news, or tabloid/Internet mockery?
    Twitter by Suzan Walsh, Conservative Party Information Officer.

    http://evolvepolitics.com/conservati...images-online/
    http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/0...he-opposition/
    https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/22/if-...bout-him-ge17/
    http://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/04/...-snap-facebook
    Last edited by Beskar; 04-25-2017 at 18:27.
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  17. #77
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Twitter.
    Can you link to the twitter post so we can check it out ourselves? I got hell for citing an Orwell essay without specifically naming it (which I eventually did).

  18. #78
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Doubly wrong as the gesture at the time had different connotations to what it has now. As far as many were concerned it was still the roman salute.
    Well, the first Reich was the Holy Roman Empire, therefore, same difference.


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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Am I attacking anyone? I referred to a universally known fact that at that time it was kinda fashion, infatuation with (at least) outward appanages of German nazism. Many people were "guilty"of this passion and the royal family was not an exception. It proves the fact that no one can deem himself superior to others and taunt their switching sides.
    In the period you are referring to, 1933, Hitler was essentially seen as German'y Donald Trump and the video was shot by the Duke of Windsor (boo, hiss!) and he was a bit of a Nazi appeaser because he didn't want another war, and a bit of an idiot.

    HM Queen was 7.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    In the period you are referring to, 1933, Hitler was essentially seen as German'y Donald Trump and the video was shot by the Duke of Windsor (boo, hiss!) and he was a bit of a Nazi appeaser because he didn't want another war, and a bit of an idiot.

    HM Queen was 7.
    7 year olds are well known for their sound decision making skills.
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  21. #81
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    In the period you are referring to, 1933, Hitler was essentially seen as German'y Donald Trump and the video was shot by the Duke of Windsor (boo, hiss!) and he was a bit of a Nazi appeaser because he didn't want another war, and a bit of an idiot.

    HM Queen was 7.
    Don't you mean the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?

  22. #82
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Don't you mean the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?
    Not after George V, no. WWI was the catalyst to anglicise all the German sounding names, but George V might have done it anyway. Hating Germany was an article of faith for him, his proof of his Britishness.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Don't you mean the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Not after George V, no. WWI was the catalyst to anglicise all the German sounding names, but George V might have done it anyway. Hating Germany was an article of faith for him, his proof of his Britishness.
    "Duke of Windsor" was his title, though.

    A supreme insult, to make him Duke of a small market town dominated by his former Royal Castle, rahter than of an historic county.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I'm gonna have to research Corbyn a bit more. It's fascinating (from afar) how polarizing he appears to be.
    after GE15 the labour party had an opportunity to wake up and realise that the ascendancy of the metropolitan left must come to an end, lest it divorce the party from the people it purports to represent. the economically left wing, socially conservative, working class. commonly considered to be the founding reason for the 'labour' movement. flag faith and family, i beleive was the commonly understood ethos in the first half of 20c.

    having argued for years that UKIP was really labour's problem, not the tories, i rofl'ed big time at the damage they did in labour heartlands in northern england at GE15, and said that they needed an Alan Johnston type figure to reverse the northern rot in its core vote.

    instead, what we got was an metropolitian 'ultra' from london who cared more about the injustice of palestine than the problems of Pontefract. so I rofl'ed some more. then rofl'ed gain when he proved to be completely imovable despite his utter inability to address the existential questions his party faces.

    for all this talk of 'progressive alliances', i warn you all to accomodate yourselves to an 80-100 seat tory majority, and the utter destruction of the notion of the 48%. lest you become totally disillusioned with british politics. ;)
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  25. #85
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    The problem is not left-wing politics as Theresa May is currently stealing ideas from 'red Ed' about capping energy prices. Yet, unlike her, she is not getting slammed into the dirt unlike he was. Having the Propaganda machine supporting your cause helps a lot.
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  26. #86
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Ukraine were more pro-Nazi than the royals as a set generally were (eg. Ukrainian concentration camp guards were noted by inmates as particularly brutal).
    So, Ukrainian guards at concentration camps were brutal, ergo Ukraine was pro-Nazi?
    Your conclusions are of the level: the Fresno black shooter killed three white men, ergo Fresno blacks are racists and murderers. Try to avoid generalizations and untangle yourself from the cobweb of myths and stereotypes spun by your propaganda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    7 year olds are well known for their sound decision making skills.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So, Ukrainian guards at concentration camps were brutal, ergo Ukraine was pro-Nazi?
    Your conclusions are of the level: the Fresno black shooter killed three white men, ergo Fresno blacks are racists and murderers. Try to avoid generalizations and untangle yourself from the cobweb of myths and stereotypes spun by your propaganda.
    Here's another generalisation for you. The British Free Corps, formed from British and Commonwealth POWs, had 54 members in total, with a maximum strength of 27. It's not exactly notable for having done anything practical, but there were quite a few complaints from the Germans that they were a waste of resources. Compare with Ukrainian recruits to the SS, both in numbers and activities.

  28. #88
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Here's another generalisation for you. The British Free Corps, formed from British and Commonwealth POWs, had 54 members in total, with a maximum strength of 27. It's not exactly notable for having done anything practical, but there were quite a few complaints from the Germans that they were a waste of resources. Compare with Ukrainian recruits to the SS, both in numbers and activities.
    Not that I don't agree with your position in general, but in this case, it would be fair to note the difference in the number of Ukrainian POWs and British POWs, and to note that Ukraine has been fully occupied by the Nazis for a very long time while Britain was not.

  29. #89
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So, Ukrainian guards at concentration camps were brutal, ergo Ukraine was pro-Nazi?
    Actually, most historians and history buffs don't think they were pro-Nazi so much as anti-Soviet(Russian). Ukraine had its share of jew-haters as well, but that was not exactly uncommon in Europe in the early 20th and Ukraine was not noted for being any worse than most of the other cultures in the region on that issue.

    Records suggest that nearly 100k Ukrainians volunteered to serve with the SS, though far fewer actually served. To be fair, the per capita recruitment for the SS was higher in the Netherlands, Belgium, and in Romania than in Ukraine.

    If anything, the Nazis missed an opportunity in Ukraine. They could have formed a satellite state that would probably have supported the war against the Soviets. However, they treated Ukrainians as "lesser men" as well and never truly made the effort to set up an independent Ukraine.
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    after GE15 the labour party had an opportunity to wake up and realise that the ascendancy of the metropolitan left must come to an end, lest it divorce the party from the people it purports to represent. the economically left wing, socially conservative, working class. commonly considered to be the founding reason for the 'labour' movement. flag faith and family, i beleive was the commonly understood ethos in the first half of 20c.

    having argued for years that UKIP was really labour's problem, not the tories, i rofl'ed big time at the damage they did in labour heartlands in northern england at GE15, and said that they needed an Alan Johnston type figure to reverse the northern rot in its core vote.

    instead, what we got was an metropolitian 'ultra' from london who cared more about the injustice of palestine than the problems of Pontefract. so I rofl'ed some more. then rofl'ed gain when he proved to be completely imovable despite his utter inability to address the existential questions his party faces.

    for all this talk of 'progressive alliances', i warn you all to accomodate yourselves to an 80-100 seat tory majority, and the utter destruction of the notion of the 48%. lest you become totally disillusioned with british politics. ;)
    The one thing that has perplexed me about British politics in the past few years has been the process of Party Leaders. I must be blind to the inner nuances of British society because Corbyn in my eyes just seems like a dud. He seems to be alienating to a large section of the public, and as the 'Leader of the Opposition' he certainly abandoned any efforts to represent the 48% who wanted to stay. He had a vote of no confidence just last year and now his party looks like it is on the verge of complete irrelevancy after the next election. How is this man still Party Leader?

    In general, I really don't care if 60% had voted to leave. As a politician who is supposed to be looking in the best interests of the State, this drive towards Brexit at the possible expense of Scotland leaving the Union seems to be insanity. And over what, a non-binding referendum? Would a politician really be chastised in UK society for saying, "I will not vote for Brexit in the interest of maintaining a beautiful Union that has stood since 1707." I just don't understand and maybe I never will.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 04-27-2017 at 08:03.


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