Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
And Corbyn has confirmed and asserted his hard Brexit position, sacking a number of shadow ministers who voted in favour of an amendment demanding a soft Brexit.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
No, because the Org is a Unitary Website.
Ireland is a different country to England, the Union is of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. To describe Devon-and-Cornwall as "part of the Union" is to make a category error.
I will not condone harm to the common weel for narrow regional reasons.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Cornwall was part of Wessex before England existed, then Wessex became England, then England was united with Wales, then Scotland was united with those two, then Ireland was united with Great Britain.
Cornwall is, therefore, not a constituent part of the "United Kingdom" and to describe it as such is a classification error.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Cornwall has been part of England before there was even an England. The last time it had a semi-separate identity was when England was still proto-England. By the time of Alfred, it had already been folded into the English realm. The last time Cornwall had a recognisably separate scope was when the Saxons were still the Saxons, and the Britons were still the Britons, holed up in Dumnonia and the lands of the Cymru. If you want to talk about Cornwall having a legal status inside the Union, you might as well talk about the legal status of the Saxon Coasts as well, as that's the last time they were separate.
Doesn't address my question. I would say that while Cornwall is not a constituent of the Treaty of Union, it is a constituent of one of the constituents of the Treaty of Union, and so as a subset of that constituent is indeed "a part of" (or similar designation) the UK. Just as both the city of New York and the State of New York are part of the United States, even though New York City is neither a founding member nor a state member at all.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Start by discussing things in the correct language. The last time Cornwall was a separate entity, what we call England was split up into a number of kingdoms, with each king barely ruling what we would now term a county. The Union was a union between two states, England and Scotland. By that point, Cornwall had not been an independent entity for a thousand years. Cornwall only has a separate geographical status for administrative reasons. As a realm, which predates what you might recognise as a state, it is inseparable from "England". Start by recognising that not all the world fits into American conceptions of states, laws and rights.
Do we talk about the legal status of Islington North within the Union? No, because Islington North is part of England, and only exists as an entity for administrative reasons.
So it is part of England, correct? Which is in turn, part of the Union...it is inseparable from "England".
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
By Union, I was using short-hand of "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" the name of our nation. The territories of Cornwall, Devon and Northern Ireland all fall within these boundaries. I was not discussing legal entities or countries which consist of the union, but the territories that do.
An example of a territory that doesn't would be the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands (Crown dependencies, not part of the United Kingdom), neither of these are however being discussed.
The fact there is even an argument is at best, pedant, at worst, foolish.
Last edited by Beskar; 06-30-2017 at 06:43.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
With respect, I addressed your question - you just didn't understand the answer.
London is part of England - and the capital of the UK as a whole. If you disassembled the Union into its Constituent parts London would still be part of England. So, no, London is not "A part of the Union" although you might colloquially say it "belonged to the Union" in a greater sense.
It is not "A part of the Union" in the same way as Northern Ireland. Remember, Northern Ireland is a separate country and not a region of the UK.
In politics, especially identity politics, semantics are important. Are you aware that there is actually a Cornish secessionist movement?
Beskar was comparing Devon-and-Cornwall which is a loosely concepted region that possibly doesn't include all of Cornwall, possibly includes the Scillies, with Northern Ireland which is a separate country. If you refer back to Beskar's post he says "Devon and Cornwall" which are two counties in South-Western England and may or may not be the same as "Devon-and-Cornwall".
Cornwall is a Duchy (which currently functions as a County), Devon is a County and Northern Ireland is a Country. Devon-and-Cornwall is a region. For extra complexity, Cornwall technically includes large swathes of Devon as part of the Duchy.
You are comparing Apples and Oranges, possibly because you do not live here.
Please, though, tell people in the other parts of the UK how to conceive of their identity, see how far it gets you in a pub down here.
Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 06-30-2017 at 08:59.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
PVC, this just doesn't contradict what I have said.
London or Cornwall are part of the Union in the same way that Northern Ireland or England are part of the Union - territoriality and physically - AND the latter are part of the Union in an additional way that the former are not, namely being legal entities within the Union, or "separate countries" as you say. The fact that separate countries are constituent of the whole in BOTH ways is precisely what allows an individual country's components to in turn "be a part of" that whole. That Cornwall is a part of the Union is wholly dependent on England being a part of the Union, but not vice versa.
It is possible for an entity to have more than one logical status at a time. Identity has nothing to do with it.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
And here I was thinking us southeastern Europeans are complicated with what's a part of what.
How is Cornwall's legal status separate from that of England? Cornwall has been part of England since before there was any question of any kind of legal status, back in the days when we talked about "authority", not "status". Back in the days when local rulers raised forces to support a High King because the latter was strong enough to organise them against an outside threat.
It's only complicated when Americans try to force their conceptions on things they don't understand. At least my Anglocentrism is based on my acknowledgement that there are many things I don't fully understand, and I try to understand it through my imperfect prism. Like I said, MM might as well talk about the legal status of Islington North within the Union. That too exists for administrative purposes, and might well be dissolved when administrative reasons demand it.
Wow. Some burning issues going down. Cornish secession. Lol
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Idaho, where do you stand on Brexit? Inside the single market or outside?
I have a whole list of issues with the EU. It's undemocratic, it's neo liberal, it's corrupt, etc. However brexit as it stands its ridiculous. Its like complaining that your landlord is bad and your house has a load of problems - so you are going to move out and sleep in the park.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Except this has nothing to do with Identity in the slightest...
Though, in your hypothetical pub, I think people in the pub would be cheering when I agree with them that they should get extra money.
This is basically what I said.
This is not the case. It is Philippus getting super-pedantic storm-in-teacup grade over the idea where I agreed that his local area should get more investment, due to him discussing that it is historically under-invested. He has somehow managed to turn a comment where agreeing to extra money for his area into a quagmire where apparently agreeing that people should receive extra money would result in me getting beaten up by them for offending their identity in a local pub.
For our international friends, Storm-in-teacup = an idiom meaning a small event that has been exaggerated out of proportion
Last edited by Beskar; 06-30-2017 at 12:26.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Last edited by Fragony; 06-30-2017 at 18:43.
Bookmarks