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Thread: Hurricane Harvey & Irma

  1. #61
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    The coverage is hyped to the extreme. Is it gonna suck for the Keys, yes. Will all of Florida sink? Not hardly. As it moves North up the peninsula it will lose strength. Here in Orlando we are expecting no worse than a large cat one level storm here. Bad, yes. But catastrophic 30 miles inland? Not hardly.

    For those of you following from afar, check the sustained winds and the mb of pressure. Note the predictions for those as it advances. This will give you a more realistic feel for the problem then the hyperbolic coverage. A large TS/Cat one hurricane windblast is not much different in strength than the gust front of a good sized thunderstorm. It does last a lot longer, but unless you get caught in one of the infrequent tornadoes that spin off the storm, you are pretty well off.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  2. #62

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 09-10-2017 at 22:10.
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  3. #63
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Keep safe, hammertime

  4. #64

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Oh it's on:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/its-off...-since-katrina

    It looks and sounds bad. Storm surge where none was predicted and general mayhem everywhere.
    Repeating a caution: even after the storm has seemed to have passed, stay out of evacuated areas until officials give "All Clear"
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  5. #65
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    The storm slipped west before landfall, losing some power to the Cuban Mountains but only a little. The eye passed just east of Key West, so it is likely that the storm's departure will show great damage throughout the Florida keys. Storm surge during the day was modest, a meter or so below feared levels in places like Miami. However, the communities on the SW edge are now getting hit with surge a meter higher than originally predicted as the reversed winds of the SW quadrant keep pushing water inland.

    Currently Orlando area is experiencing heavy rain and Cat One winds. Lots of minor damage throughout the area. The worst of the winds will be past us around dawn.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  6. #66
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    They cancelled my classes for Monday and Tuesday, which seems a little weird because the predicted path of the hurricane no longer takes it directly to where I am.
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  7. #67
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    They cancelled my classes for Monday and Tuesday, which seems a little weird because the predicted path of the hurricane no longer takes it directly to where I am.
    You get to play video games for another day instead of studying. wtf m8
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  8. #68
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    You get to play video games for another day instead of studying. wtf m8
    Oh I wish, it really will be mostly paper and cover letter writing. Assuming we dont lose power.
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    ~6.5 million without power
    water water everywhere
    The damage total could well make Texas look like a spring shower (my opinion)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41234292
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  10. #70
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Could have been much worse

  11. #71
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Could have been much worse
    That's what you say when you get a B+ on a tough exam, not have two states lacking at least 50% power. That, on top of several islands finding themselves in a barely habitable state.
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  12. #72
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    My internet and phone service has been down for the past 30 hours due to the storm taking down power lines so this has been pretty bad. Of course, its all relative.
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  13. #73
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Without power for a day and a half. Annoying, but no crisis really. Dear friends lost a driveway to a 5 foot washout, but not their home or anything truly important. Could have been much worse. In the Keys, it certainly was.

    But I don't think anything will match the cost of having those refineries shut down for that long. Still, with the keys and the problems in Miami this one will mount up.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  14. #74

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Apparently a late shift in direction, caused by bracing against an atmospheric feature above the Bahamas, weakened Irma enough before states-fall to avert damage in the 12 figures.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...amage-so-wrong
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-everyone-else

    Rich Texans want to sue the federal government because their properties were developed on a dam's flood plain, and this flood plain happened to be... flooded during the hurricane.

    This situation, though, has two key differences. In New Orleans, economically disadvantaged communities, some of them historically black, bore the brunt of the loss, with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of deaths. The victims in West Houston include white, wealthy, Republican-voting energy executives.
    The West Houston cases are unlike the Katrina cases in another way, too: Rather than make a legal argument about official neglect, they speak to what happened when the federal government intentionally flooded one of the richest areas of a city to save everyone else.
    “Hell yeah, I’m pissed,” he spits. He says he’s still deciding whether to sue. “This was not an act of God, this was an act of man. They pushed us onto a grenade to save the rest of the city.” He crushes a beer can in one hand and tosses it aside, then picks up a sledgehammer and brings it down, hard, on a ruined cabinet.
    Buzbee waves off such caution. “If you have your case on file and have litigated your case, you will always have better standing than someone who is sitting on the sidelines,” he says.
    His approach to the West Houston suits is based on a fascinating legal argument, one that taps at a core Texan belief: The government should leave you the hell alone and pay you back if it doesn’t. The takings clause of the U.S. Constitution’s Fifth Amendment forbids the federal government from seizing citizens’ property without paying for it: “[N]or shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.” Attendant case law holds that when a government “takes” property for the public good without going through eminent domain proceedings, the owner can claim that an “inverse condemnation” has taken place, arguing that property was unfairly taken, damaged, or destroyed, and that payment is due.

    Until 2012 the government successfully argued that it wasn’t legally responsible for decisions made in response to temporary flooding. That year the Supreme Court laid out a new multifactor test that could establish government liability in such cases. The majority opinion, written by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, held, for example, that the government should compensate a property owner for a taking if it has interfered with a “reasonable, investment-backed expectation.” That is, if it was reasonable to expect that a home you invested in wouldn’t flood, but it does, and a court finds the government responsible, then compensation could be due.
    In some cities, developers are prohibited from building in these areas, but in Houston there are no such restrictions. Many homeowners west of the Barker dam claim they didn’t know they were in a flood pool, that they hadn’t spotted the fine print on the bottom of some of their subdivision maps. (“Who looks at a subdivision map?” one resident asks.)
    Blais isn’t sure that even the 500-year flood plain homeowners will be able to make their case in court. “If you are close to the coast in hurricane country, and you build a house downstream from a reservoir and near a bayou, and everything around you is called ‘bayou’-something, what are your reasonable expectations of being flooded?” she asks. “You probably should have thought of that.”
    There are also concerns that, if the cases succeed, they could create a daunting precedent for the government. Ginsburg’s 2012 opinion tried to assuage fears that a broader takings standard would lead to a “deluge” of claims, but Echeverria and Meltz write that this could be exactly what happens. The takings clause could, they say, become “a kind of social insurance program for risk associated with climate change.” The notion of “historic flooding” inscribed in the 500-year flood plain standard won’t mean much if climate change scrambles that math. What’s more, they write, “successful takings litigation may actually impede initiative to take steps to avoid the worst effects of climate change.” Why build a dam, after all, if operating it could cost you billions of dollars in lawsuit payouts?
    It's unfortunate they lost homes and possessions (though they have security), and I'd rather blame unscrupulous developers over buyers, but I don't see how they can sue for beyond the normal federal disaster relief - and honestly these people have relatively little need for federal relief. I hope this fails in court.

    “I’m 100 percent certain Robert died because of the dam releases,” Kyle says. “It was because of their irresponsibility that they didn’t force people to get out before they released the water. I think they should have busted doors down and said, ‘The reservoir’s going, you gotta get out now.’ ”
    I am in full agreement that pre-emptive mandatory and compelled evacuation in such circumstances is appropriate. Unfortunately, I'm unsure that many Texans agree.
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  16. #76
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    I once attended a county board meeting in Virginia. One of the items of business was a pair of neighbors complaining about the noise and heavy truck traffic from a local quarry impinging on their enjoyment of their properties, despite the decorative berm put in by the quarry at its own expense to mitigate sightlines and sound pollution.

    Both homes had been built, then purchased by these homeowners more than 15 years AFTER the quarry had begun operations. The county board ruled against them.

    They attempted to jointly sue the county and the quarry.


    So, if the dam was constructed AFTER the development of the property in question and over the written objections of that owner, then MAYBE they are owed some compensation. Absent that, go pound sand.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  17. #77
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    So, if the dam was constructed AFTER the development of the property in question and over the written objections of that owner, then MAYBE they are owed some compensation. Absent that, go pound sand.
    I wouldn't be so sure. Remembering the lawsuit against some restaurant concerning burns caused by hot coffee one might suppose they would claim no one EXPLICITLY told them that they MIGHT get flooded when they had bought the estates. And the court will rule in their favor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  18. #78
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure. Remembering the lawsuit against some restaurant concerning burns caused by hot coffee one might suppose they would claim no one EXPLICITLY told them that they MIGHT get flooded when they had bought the estates. And the court will rule in their favor.
    The appeals judge in that now infamous case lowered the award dramatically. If I recall correctly, the judge didn't set aside the award entirely only because it was not allowed at the appellate level.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  19. #79

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure. Remembering the lawsuit against some restaurant concerning burns caused by hot coffee one might suppose they would claim no one EXPLICITLY told them that they MIGHT get flooded when they had bought the estates. And the court will rule in their favor.
    The facts and claims of the coffee lawsuit don't seem to have any relevance to the legal aspects of this case, and the coffee case was perfectly sensible and worthwhile. Usually in our legal system negligence, if evident, produces liability The burns in the coffee case were directly associated with very high serving temperatures and flimsy containers:

    The jury in this case decided that the coffee was a defective product and that McDonald's had breached implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. The jury also decided that the lady did bear some responsibility for what had happened. The jury said that she was twenty percent at fault and that McDonald's was eighty percent at fault for the injury.
    What you have to distinguish between is whether the hazard of hot liquid is obvious, and whether the hot liquid product is served, packaged, or conveyed in a risky manner. The second point is independent of the first.

    McDonalds and other establishments serving coffee accounted for this ruling by improving the quality of the containers and lowering the serving temperature (sometimes): a good outcome.

    Also I should note that in any legal system precedent (used broadly) is important, and one element of the coffee case only briefly hinted at in the link is that McDonalds was found to have settled out of court hundreds of similar coffee cases prior to this one, which went to trial because plaintiff and defendant could not agree on a settlement. The prior settlements helped to establish that McDonalds was conscious of potential liability and defect in the products yet did not act to amend this.
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  20. #80
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    The facts and claims of the coffee lawsuit don't seem to have any relevance to the legal aspects of this case, and the coffee case was perfectly sensible and worthwhile. Usually in our legal system negligence, if evident, produces liability The burns in the coffee case were directly associated with very high serving temperatures and flimsy containers:



    What you have to distinguish between is whether the hazard of hot liquid is obvious, and whether the hot liquid product is served, packaged, or conveyed in a risky manner. The second point is independent of the first.

    McDonalds and other establishments serving coffee accounted for this ruling by improving the quality of the containers and lowering the serving temperature (sometimes): a good outcome.

    Also I should note that in any legal system precedent (used broadly) is important, and one element of the coffee case only briefly hinted at in the link is that McDonalds was found to have settled out of court hundreds of similar coffee cases prior to this one, which went to trial because plaintiff and defendant could not agree on a settlement. The prior settlements helped to establish that McDonalds was conscious of potential liability and defect in the products yet did not act to amend this.
    I wasn't talking about legal aspect or serving potentially dangerous wares to the customers. EVERYTHING may eventually hurt people.

    What I had in mind is that such weird charges and lawsuits lead to manufacturers growing attempts to "warn" the customers they may get hurt by their products if they are mishahdled or misused. Consequently, some of these warnings seem as weird as the abovementioned charges. For instance I heard that chainsaws have a warning not to touch the mechanism when it is on. Like a person in sober senses may do the opposite!

    So, what I'm driving at: if the house owners who suffered from the flood complain that they were not EXPLICITLY warned of the danger (which is crystal clear to everybody when FLOOD PLAIN is mentioned) they may still win the case. They would say that the danger of flood wasn't mentioned in the ownership documents (don't know the correct name for them) and no boards with respective warnings had been spotted near the houses for sale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  21. #81
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    I always love the little desiccant packets with their "do not eat" label.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  22. #82

    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I wasn't talking about legal aspect or serving potentially dangerous wares to the customers. EVERYTHING may eventually hurt people.

    What I had in mind is that such weird charges and lawsuits lead to manufacturers growing attempts to "warn" the customers they may get hurt by their products if they are mishahdled or misused. Consequently, some of these warnings seem as weird as the abovementioned charges. For instance I heard that chainsaws have a warning not to touch the mechanism when it is on. Like a person in sober senses may do the opposite!

    So, what I'm driving at: if the house owners who suffered from the flood complain that they were not EXPLICITLY warned of the danger (which is crystal clear to everybody when FLOOD PLAIN is mentioned) they may still win the case. They would say that the danger of flood wasn't mentioned in the ownership documents (don't know the correct name for them) and no boards with respective warnings had been spotted near the houses for sale.
    Not really. What you seized upon was that both cases involve liability, but so do most legal matters, and there are many different forms of liability. Lessons drawn from one case may not apply to another.

    The one you invoked involved corporate business liability with respect to consumer goods and purchases. The Texas flooding suit involves, among other things, the liability of the federal government in its use, seizure, or destruction of private land and property (as a Constitutional issue).

    These are just different cases and different kinds of law.
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  23. #83
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurricane Harvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Not really. What you seized upon was that both cases involve liability, but so do most legal matters, and there are many different forms of liability. Lessons drawn from one case may not apply to another.

    The one you invoked involved corporate business liability with respect to consumer goods and purchases. The Texas flooding suit involves, among other things, the liability of the federal government in its use, seizure, or destruction of private land and property (as a Constitutional issue).

    These are just different cases and different kinds of law.
    Probably. I am no lawyer. But it seems to me this "we weren't explicitly told" may be used by the suitors.
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