Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think a big part of it is that I've never been all that satisfied with my town game.

I have nothing left to prove as a mafioso. But my town game is maybe 50/50, as most people's town game is when they're over 100 games. You don't get significantly higher than that because it is a team game.

But this year in particular I've been working on it.

In the past 3 games, on here and on MTGS, I've caught 3 wolves in each game. That's 9 wolves in 3 games. But I didn't win either of the first two games I am mentioning here, because one got away.

And here. One got away. But it was within my power to make it happen, if I figured it out and convinced the correct people, because there might have been doc protection on me, leading the scums to shoot away. The other games, I died after finding a scum and pointing at the other two.

This was the game where I was gonna actually finish a game out. I was trying to prove something to myself, that my town game was not shit.

But even at the end, if I had gotten what I wanted and the final scum died, once that compulsion was over and done with, I'd still be here in this same situation.

It has to be okay to not catch every scum, and for me this game, it was not okay. I needed to get them all or I was a worthless player, and my town game was never going to be any good at all.

And I never held anyone else to such standards in all my years of playing mafia.

As recently cited to someone else about being a good player, because they thought they were not good enough to play on MU:

What makes a good werewolf player?

I have noticed over the years that players seem to be under the mistaken impression that they need to win oodles of games and/or win as werewolf and/or lynch all the scums as villager and/or never lynch villagers as villager in order to be a decent player.

I think I touched on this a bit before my first game here on this forum.

Okay, let us imagine this ideal werewolf player. They only accuse the wolves as villager, they never accuse villagers as villager, and they always win as wolf. Somehow. They win 90 percent of the games they play. They've been playing for 10 years.

Now let us imagine they have no further redeeming or endearing qualities. They don't really converse with their fellow players, they have no sense of humor, they think little of everyone else's earnest efforts, and they take the game personally. They also drop from games for no reason without explanation.

Is this person a good werewolf player?

No.

They might be skilled, but they aren't a good player.

A good player, let us imagine him or her for a second. The ideal good werewolf player.

They are wrong sometimes and right sometimes. (That's pretty much everyone.)
They want to share the game experience with other players, and get involved by conversing with the rest of the players, on their team or not.
They have a sense of humor or can appreciate others' attempts at humor.
They don't take it personally if you're wrong about them, or lose the game for their team.
They sign up for games only if they truly intend to give it their best effort.
They notify game hosts when they need to drop, with a reason why, preferably.
They are at least aware of the vote tally when one has been posted, and aware of when the round ends, and try to make decisions that help their team.

And that's it.

They don't need to be particularly good at accusing anyone. They don't need to be accurate. They don't need to be a leader, or extremely talkative.

It is, at the last, a guessing game between friends, a casual experience. Some really put in the effort and try to find all the wolves themselves, but that is not a requirement.

If you show up and try, and you keep things in perspective, and you notify game hosts when you can't play anymore, and it's not an every game thing where you need to drop out, then you are a good player.

I'd rather play with 20 good players than one "skilled" player who has no other redeeming qualities.

So please, take that to heart.

And keep it in mind if I kinda suck out loud one game. LOL

But this is the problem. I broke my own rule. I was basically becoming the wannabe skilled player with no other redeeming qualities. Harmful to my own enjoyment of the game and that of others.

That's really why I am stepping away.

I am holding myself to a double standard. I've always said it's okay for others to guess wrong, but I badly broke that rule this game, for myself.

[Montmorency]

Lord knows I myself expose a facet of the 'super-serious, anti-teamplay' drive, where I just know that with

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A LITTLE MORE

power, I can pool the townies' efforts together, overwhelm the scums, and save everyone - even if I have to kill most of them to do it. All resistance must be quelched at any cost, else they doom us all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DOOM US ALL

As the Russian goes, "The refuser will be neutralized."

...

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

[Montmorency]

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

I said this a lot in the chat (to myself), but I really did want to vote Csargo at several junctures. You had a great case, even if it was misguided. Before the time when doing so would actually have amounted to throwing the game against my team - this was when I was still treated the game as unwinnable - I thought to myself how great it would make you feel, if you managed to convince me to vote Csargo and thereby lose the game. 'Pizza's so good he can convince a mugger to hand him a 20, a supervisor to endorse his promotion over them, and final scum to lynch themselves!' Same thing with Slaan, though I felt like I had to push back because the case was ultimately too ambitious turning on small points.

How could Town Monty resist the lure of such a detailed case against Classic Org Lurk-Scum Archetype? Really only the network impulse. If I'd had to claim D4 or earlier, I probably also wouldn't have been able to justify avoiding pro-Town self-sacrifice in the face of such good casework.


How about earlier in the game, D1 through Manasi's lynch? Something about the way I was interacting with Zack, among other things, led you to publicly declare an explicit townread on me.

[Kagemusha]

Pizza self reflection tells me you are healthy. Look at me back in the day i was sort of good player, when mafia was a new thing here at Org. Both as mafia and town. If i remember right im still undefeated in GH´s vanilla mafia´s as scum and i also saved the town as townie in the same games once or twice.

Looking at retrospect i peaked at Capo II at 2008 when i was able to unite the rivaling mafia factions in order to defeat the town, with daring united push of scum, but at the same time i became so happy with myself that i forgot what was the idea of the game: To win. I forgot that and lost with a grand bang of course, but still lost. From there on my mafia game has been a downward spiral of 9 years. Mostly because i always told myself how great i am, while accusing this and that for my blunders. Loosing energy to all kinds of nonsense and never really looking it from outside perspective and keeping it simple.

I remember when you appeared to the games here in Org and for some time i was pretty much obsessed with you, mostly in negative way as you seemed to be all over the place, which was yet another excuse to not self reflect for me. Why i could not cope with this talkative style of play? Because i did not bother to lay down the effort. My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.

Still no matter what i just kept getting worse and worse in this game, more frustrated i got, worse i got and in the end in my last games as scum or townie i was lynched at first rounds or i simply lost interest and got Wogged.

Thankfully in the end i got so busy in real life, having to run a company for couple years now and getting married last fall. I decided i did not need the stress of sucking at this game anymore. During this hiatus i came to understand how important stuff this really is and how big deal these games are... That is why i decided to try again and now without any pressure anymore this was actually fun and im sure il take another jab at the game again. How much i suck at this for me is a no concern anymore as long it will be fun.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza
choxorn
dp101
Fredwood
Cuthillius <-----
Xiahou
-----
Monty
Slaan
Csargo

Even above Xiahou here.

Terrible!

Lover claim made us go outside the POE. "Should have stuck to my guns".

[Askthepizzaguy]

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now.

Crazed rabbit's The Shadow Fort, one of the org's best flavorful games of all time.

[Montmorency]

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.:

Seems like you had another vampire game, Andres' Daggers in the Night in 2010. It was the first Mafia game I ever spectated, a year before I played my first (online). Trademark ORG complexity and flavor. In those times, the post count seemed tremendous. Now I can't even imagine what a 40-player D1 would look like.

[Askthepizzaguy]

How about earlier in the game, D1 through Manasi's lynch? Something about the way I was interacting with Zack, among other things, led you to publicly declare an explicit townread on me.

I believe I'd be rehashing things. I may have said it somewhere already, pretty sure even. Trying to move past it now.

That plus your high effort, and you were making sense to me, gave you town points. But the whole game I was saying how amazing you are as scum and how it's possible.

I made the conscious decision to put you as town several times. It was only because I could actually lock several folks, like dp or fredwood or xiahou, that pushed you down and out of my town at all. I saw the tie suggestion from you on d1, to put choxorn as a tie... that was the only truly scummy thing you did all game.

That, and the dark force theory. Except it applied to you and not to Csargo. I saw that the scum was inside the lover team, and made a decision who it was. The lynches, kills, and behavior of the dead scums all pointed at the lover team.

Just... got the wrong one. And final 4 was too late if I was pushing the wrong member of the pair.

My vote on Cuth was me realizing we had lost.

[Kagemusha]

Seems like you had another vampire game, Andres' Daggers in the Night in 2010. It was the first Mafia game I ever spectated, a year before I played my first (online). Trademark ORG complexity and flavor. In those times, the post count seemed tremendous. Now I can't even imagine what a 40-player D1 would look like.

Good old times. Should just take some time and read at least some of those old games. So much fun during so many years.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I hated making a vote I was reasonably certain didn't win the game, too.

But I was tired of suffering over the game and Cuth looked like he had had enough as well.

I apologize for that choice, but... I had to. Enough was enough for me.

[Dp101]

I hated making a vote I was reasonably certain didn't win the game, too.

But I was tired of suffering over the game and Cuth looked like he had had enough as well.

I apologize for that choice, but... I had to. Enough was enough for me.

I understand, even if part of me wishes that you tied the vote and rolled the dice. Take a break as long as you need to, just know that we dont expect you to do anything more in these games than what you want to. Yes, at times, you put winning over others in this game, but please go back and find all the times that you didn’t. I am not saying that a break is not healthy, I just don’t want you to see yourself as a complete failure when you have inspired me to become so much better at this game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I understand, even if part of me wishes that you tied the vote and rolled the dice. Take a break as long as you need to, just know that we dont expect you to do anything more in these games than what you want to. Yes, at times, you put winning over others in this game, but please go back and find all the times that you didn’t. I am not saying that a break is not healthy, I just don’t want you to see yourself as a complete failure when you have inspired me to become so much better at this game.

This is my thoughts on voting to tie it:

Monty then wins or loses the single greatest game he's ever played, due to the outcome of a coin flip.

If you were alive instead of me on final 4 it would have been a win, even if you lynch Csargo with Cuth. Gets the job done.

Instead, he correctly killed the double voter, and survived attempts made by me and others to get Csargo lynched. He earned it.

To me, if town earned it, they would have earned it by not lynching Xiahou and lynching even Csargo would have been fine, because it gets the job done. Town didn't quite earn it at the end.

I allowed my townies to get lynched, in Xiahou and Cuth. I should have insisted, but if I do that, then I'm just the dick who cannot play mafia unless he always gets his way on every lynch.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I ran into the brick wall several times of playing the game to win, or playing the game with friends I wanted to keep after the game.

The only real rule: "Don't be a dick." I was trying not to be. Apologies to anyone who felt I was.

[Kagemusha]

I hated making a vote I was reasonably certain didn't win the game, too.

But I was tired of suffering over the game and Cuth looked like he had had enough as well.

I apologize for that choice, but... I had to. Enough was enough for me.

I was convinced until the very end that Cuth was the mafia, i just couldnt let go of the thought. I actually predicted that Xia would flip town and you would be night killed, while Monty would save the town by getting Cuth lynched. See how that prediction unfolded...

[Askthepizzaguy]

I said all the reasons why Xiahou was town, and we all identified Cuth's and the dead wolves' posts which locked him town.

Allowing both of those people to be put outside of our town circle is how we lost.

The POE of Monty, Slaan, and Csargo was correct and it would have been over in any 2 of those lynches, and I chose the only wrong one.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The game is town's to lose, and we somehow managed to lynch the exact wrong people.

Not even just regular wrong people, the only wrong people that allows Monty to win.

[Askthepizzaguy]

There are many situations in chess where there's only one move which loses. And people choose that one wrong move often enough.

It happens. Not even mad about Monty winning, only upset at my own behavior.

[Kagemusha]

There are many situations in chess where there's only one move which loses. And people choose that one wrong move often enough.

It happens. Not even mad about Monty winning, only upset at my own behavior.

You just have to be merciful to yourself. You are too deep in this.

[Dp101]

The game is town's to lose, and we somehow managed to lynch the exact wrong people.

Not even just regular wrong people, the only wrong people that allows Monty to win.

Stop thinking like this. Just focusing on the mistakes and the need to be correct is exactly what you were saying that you were trying to avoid. Yes, see the parts of your behaviour that you need to fix, but, like me, you need to let go sometimes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Stop thinking like this. Just focusing on the mistakes and the need to be correct is exactly what you were saying that you were trying to avoid. Yes, see the parts of your behaviour that you need to fix, but, like me, you need to let go sometimes.

I'm there, I've already made the decision for myself.

That comment was more game-related post-mortem. Why town earned the loss and why Monty earned the win.

The signature doesn't lie.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As I discussed with someone privately, if I ever play again I need to:

1) Have a wordcount per post restriction self-imposed
2) Have a postcount per day restriction self-imposed
3) Do not attempt to make the person I am accusing laugh with jokes or references. Attempts at humor can be taken very wrongly if you're stressed out by being pushed.

[El Barto]

IIRC you once mentioned being affected by bipolar disorder, and how this influenced your play, and sometimes detracted from your enjoyment.

(!)

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.


Also, @Askthepizzaguy: it's 5 in the morning in Norway and you're still analysing a game which you yourself admit drew you in too deep? @Sooh, take the laptop off the man's hands.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.

Yeah. I was definitely on the manic side for several days.

Manic causes you to be impulsive, self-confident, outgoing, highly energetic, and compulsive. It also helps you focus and has other benefits, but it has its downsides. I prefer me when I'm manic to when I'm depressed but it certainly swung back that way a couple of times during the game, so I felt depressed too. That's when I'm feeling defeated, lethargic, uncertain and self-doubting. It's very different from feeling sad, although I experienced actual real genuine sadness when I lynched Slaan too.

Bipolar is tough. As Ben would say, the truth hurts.

Self-restrictions or don't sign up. Also long break for pizza, if not retirement.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Both extremes make it very hard to sleep, and stress on top of it makes the lack of sleep and the extremes more profound, so the cycle is hard to break once I'm in it. Lack of sleep leads to stress, stress leads to lack of sleep, and all the other wonderful side effects of manic depression.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also don't worry about me too much. To put your minds at ease, I'm not in any games, it's the weekend, I slept this afternoon, and Sooh's here.

I'm cool now, and just watching Lucahjin. (recommended to watch her play Ace Attorney games blind)

Very good youtube channel imo.

[reinoe]

Which reminds me. Sorry about "thanking" posts after death. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Choxorn]

Yes, believe it or not, whenever I'm playing during a term at uni I place a limit on how much time and attention I dedicate to mafia. This last year or so I've even played only the one game at a time.

I was a lot more active when I was younger, then I got to college, started actually having shit to do a lot of the time, started going outside and being social more often than I used to, and just generally didn't have the time for playing mafia or even posting at CFC and the Org nearly as often as I once did.

Pretty much the only reason I was super active and totally wrecking everyone at the start of this year was because I had literally nothing else to do.

In the past 3 games, on here and on MTGS, I've caught 3 wolves in each game. That's 9 wolves in 3 games. But I didn't win either of the first two games I am mentioning here, because one got away.

Hey man, it happens. I only got three of them, too, and decided to give one of my protections to the last one. I've had plenty of games like that.

Like the one where I, on two separate occasions, scumread a town over a mafia when they were the top two lynches (and they were my top two suspects), the scum got lynched, I proceeded to go hard after the townie anyway the next day and help get said townie lynched, then I got lynched myself because of how scummy that made me look.

Or the one where I correctly suspected all four werewolves and roleblocked them all at some point in the game, but never actually lynched any of them because they were just below at least one other top suspect (and I think one of them had some kind of crazy anti-lynch power).

Or the one where I was a neutral survivor and managed to eventually figure out that my scanning power could detect that one member of a mason group was an infiltrator- but I didn't realize that until after I died.

[Sooh]

(!)

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.


Also, @Askthepizzaguy: it's 5 in the morning in Norway and you're still analysing a game which you yourself admit drew you in too deep? @Sooh, take the laptop off the man's hands.

That's not how it works lol.

[Kagemusha]

That's not how it works lol.

Then take the man off the laptop's grasp.