Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 84

Thread: Kurdistan

  1. #31
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Distinguishing AT from AA, hasn't defensive AT always held strategic advantages over tank-to-tank, even more so now than before the Cold War?
    Probably, and in the case of AA, I want to see PFH fly his jets into Russian airspace without worrying about the AA...
    Surely the Peshmerga don't have the same AA, but he made it a generic statement and they aren't exactly unarmed.
    Neither do the Iraqis seem to have a huge number of jets, perhaps not even the weapons required to stay well out of range of the Peshmerga AA.

    Regarding AT weapons, didn't the Israelis lose 13 or so tanks against Hezbollah in Lebanon during their last excursion?
    Surely the Merkava is more advanced than what they sold Iraq.



    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  2. #32
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No, just no.

    The Peshmerga withdrew from Sinjar (without protecting the civilian population) where the Iraqi army fled from Mosul, losing a lot of its equipment in the process, where it had all the advantage against IS.
    The article I linked uses repeatedly the word "flee" about the behaviour of commanders and the entire Peshmerga. It doesn't mention any huge equipment loss, because it's not its subject, but it clearly portrays a picture of a "hasty withdrawal" or otherwise rout, where checkpoints were abandoned and local units weren't even informed that their comrades had left.

  3. #33
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    The article I linked uses repeatedly the word "flee" about the behaviour of commanders and the entire Peshmerga. It doesn't mention any huge equipment loss, because it's not its subject, but it clearly portrays a picture of a "hasty withdrawal" or otherwise rout, where checkpoints were abandoned and local units weren't even informed that their comrades had left.
    It might use the word "flee", but reading between the lines it hardly sounded like a rout.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  4. #34
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Iraqi army/PMU have started an attack towards Kirkuk. Lot of very conflicting information is coming from different sources, but hopefully soon more clear information will arrive.

    Edit: It would seem that the Peshmerga have been driven off from much of the open countryside West of Kirkuk and now they have withdrawn to urban areas of the city.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 10-16-2017 at 08:14.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Not much to add.
    Sounds like it's on; the U.S. is calling for parties to return to negotiation:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...103540463.html
    Ja-mata TosaInu

    Member thankful for this post:



  6. #36
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    It would seem that the city is falling. During the afternoon Iraqi forces have taken the K1 airbase, airport and the governors building and now moving in the city mostly unopposed.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41631697
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

    Member thankful for this post:



  7. #37
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    The city fell without a fight. There's some really awkward footage of Kurds withdrawing en mass (but not fleeing), fighting each other, mentally collapsing and blaming their commanders. Probably a deal was made, but it's not clear.

    The_Donald has gone hysterical after predicting that brave Kurdish partisans will fight the cowardly "Iraqi-Iranian Quds" force to the death for the glory of America! Wishful thinking=/=reality.

    As I said, Peshmerga is just a typical, semi-competent, somewhat corrupted militia of the Middle East, not superheroes. Don't watch too much Red Dawn.

  8. #38
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,450

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    The city fell without a fight. There's some really awkward footage of Kurds withdrawing en mass (but not fleeing), fighting each other, mentally collapsing and blaming their commanders. Probably a deal was made, but it's not clear.

    The_Donald has gone hysterical after predicting that brave Kurdish partisans will fight the cowardly "Iraqi-Iranian Quds" force to the death for the glory of America! Wishful thinking=/=reality.

    As I said, Peshmerga is just a typical, semi-competent, somewhat corrupted militia of the Middle East, not superheroes. Don't watch too much Red Dawn.
    Red Dawn was about 'Murricans. Altogether more heroic and self-effacing group.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  9. #39
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Something very shady was going on. The PUK controlled Peshmerga Brigades apparently withdraw without any fight and KDP controlled ones gave fight, while the Brigades at the right flank of KDP positions are still at their positions. Now KDP is accusing PUK of treachery and making deals with PMU/Iran. Nevermind that, the attack was well coordinated and apparently the man responsible of coordinating the effort was once again the old fox Qasem Soleimani. Who have been running around the middle East fighting any enemies of Iran as "advisor".

    Here is a link to Soleimani to those who are not familiar with him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasem_Soleimani
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

    Member thankful for this post:



  10. #40
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Apparently Iraqi army and PMU have started to advance in order to take the rest of the Tamim province where Kirkuk is located. Also Iraqi forces have pushed into the Kurdish occupied parts of Nineveh province to take back the control there. Peshmerga are not fighting back, but withdrawing back to the autonomous provinces of pre war Kurdistan. PUK forces to Southern part and KDP forces to central and Northern parts.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  11. #41
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Now Iraqi forces have also entered the Southern Diyala province in order to retake areas currently under Kurdish PUK control. Meanwhile the third largest party in Iraqi Kurdistan, Gorran is calling for the dissolution of the current government and establishment of Interim national government. Apparently the unity of Iraqi Kurdistan was nothing but a thin surface.

    http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/171020171
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  12. #42
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    I suspected that you used Rudaw as your source, when you mentioned Qasem Soleimani. It's already been proven to be fake news, the "news agency" actually posted a photo from 2016.

    Rudaw is not serious, it's controlled directly by the Barzani clan. They are hardly any independent media in Kurdistan. When a Yazidi unit of the PMU replaced the fleeing Peshmerga in Sinjar, they called it as a conquest perpetrated by the Shia Hasd.
    These guys are trolls hoping to emotionally trigger a neo-conservative American, they're not worthy of your time.

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...krg-rudaw.html

  13. #43
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    I suspected that you used Rudaw as your source, when you mentioned Qasem Soleimani. It's already been proven to be fake news, the "news agency" actually posted a photo from 2016.

    Rudaw is not serious, it's controlled directly by the Barzani clan. They are hardly any independent media in Kurdistan. When a Yazidi unit of the PMU replaced the fleeing Peshmerga in Sinjar, they called it as a conquest perpetrated by the Shia Hasd.
    These guys are trolls hoping to emotionally trigger a neo-conservative American, they're not worthy of your time.

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...krg-rudaw.html
    Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?

    Concerning Suleimani. The picture in the news is old one. Not the news: https://www.thenational.ae/world/men...ghdad-1.667526
    The Quds commander has overseen many of the major operations including PMU forces, so i dont see why not this one. Do you have a source denying Soleimani´s presence in Kirkuk operation?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  14. #44
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Here is an outside analysis about what happened at Kirkuk from The New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...ayed-again/amp
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  15. #45
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?

    Concerning Suleimani. The picture in the news is old one. Not the news: https://www.thenational.ae/world/men...ghdad-1.667526
    The Quds commander has overseen many of the major operations including PMU forces, so i dont see why not this one. Do you have a source denying Soleimani´s presence in Kirkuk operation?
    It's common knowledge that the Rudaw Company is owned by Nechirvan Barzani. Because it's not officially a partisan media, it is obviously obligated to post about any major news.

    https://kurdistantribune.com/nechirv...ny-as-example/

    Do you have a source denying Nechirvan's ownership of Rudaw?

    About Soleimani, I don't have any source about the leadership of the operation, but your National article simply describes a visit of Soleimani to the region and doesn't even claim that he was "responsible for coordinating the effort".

    Given that mostly the Iraqi army participated and not the PMU, I doubt that Soleimani had something more than an advisory/auxiliary role.

  16. #46
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    It's common knowledge that the Rudaw Company is owned by Nechirvan Barzani. Because it's not officially a partisan media, it is obviously obligated to post about any major news.

    https://kurdistantribune.com/nechirv...ny-as-example/

    Do you have a source denying Nechirvan's ownership of Rudaw?

    About Soleimani, I don't have any source about the leadership of the operation, but your National article simply describes a visit of Soleimani to the region and doesn't even claim that he was "responsible for coordinating the effort".

    Given that mostly the Iraqi army participated and not the PMU, I doubt that Soleimani had something more than an advisory/auxiliary role.
    '

    It really doesnt matter who owns Rudawi, as the article was not Pro Barzani. You can read the same from the Gorran party twitter for example. Why do you want discredit a source without any reason? Or did you read the actual article at all?

    About PMU there are lots of evidence of PMU participating at the Kirkuk. Photographs,Video,witnessess you name its there. Concerning Soleimani. He always only has "advisory/auxiliary role".He is not the commander of Quds for nothing...
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 10-17-2017 at 14:14.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  17. #47
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    I said mostly, not exclusively. Especially in what concerns the city proper, the major players were the Iraqi soldiers not the militiamen.

    Soleimani has achieved some sort of cult status ever since he humiliated the American army in Karbala, but let's not attribute every success of the Iraqis to him, especially when there is no evidence, but on the contrary, most indicators point towards a different conclusion.

    I don't want to slander Rudaw, it's just a site none takes seriously, Kurds included. I have cited already two articles underlining the bias of that channel and your only counter-argument is that they mentioned a statement from Gorran.

    Member thankful for this post:



  18. #48
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?
    Perhaps because its readers will be outraged by that and hate Gorran even more.
    Like how anti EU sources would post an EU politician calling for the dismantling of the nation state because they know all their nationalistic readers will hate the EU even more for that.

    Crandar seems to be correct about its bias, but perhaps not about noone taking it seriously. https://twitter.com/PollaGarmiany/st...45517524840450

    Perhaps not a very representative poll, but surely it has some followers, even if just among those who share its bias anyway.

    The only thing I take away from this is that the Kurds seem about as divided as everyone else in the area.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:



  19. #49
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    I said mostly, not exclusively. Especially in what concerns the city proper, the major players were the Iraqi soldiers not the militiamen.

    Soleimani has achieved some sort of cult status ever since he humiliated the American army in Karbala, but let's not attribute every success of the Iraqis to him, especially when there is no evidence, but on the contrary, most indicators point towards a different conclusion.

    I don't want to slander Rudaw, it's just a site none takes seriously, Kurds included. I have cited already two articles underlining the bias of that channel and your only counter-argument is that they mentioned a statement from Gorran.
    I can understand your opinion about Rudaw, but like i explained earlier.Its not the only source im looking at. So i respect your opinion and take it to consideration when looking at Rudaw as source.

    I agree that PMU was not the only force by far at Kirkuk. PMU operated mostly at both flanks and took Kirkuk airport, while the main thrust was made by 9th armored division. In any case the Iraq Government and military is run by Shiia and Iran has lots of influence on both, while their representative many times seem to be General Soleimani.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

    Member thankful for this post:



  20. #50
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    920

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Thanks Kagemusha, it's always welcome to have a nice and civil debate from time to time instead of the usual flame-wars found in other sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Crandar seems to be correct about its bias, but perhaps not about noone taking it seriously. https://twitter.com/PollaGarmiany/st...45517524840450
    Twitter is not very reliable, the poll might have been manipulated by bots and partisans. On the other hand, NRT and K24 are also biased, not sure about ARA news, though.

    Member thankful for this post:



  21. #51
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Thanks Kagemusha, it's always welcome to have a nice and civil debate from time to time instead of the usual flame-wars found in other sites.
    Thank you Crandar. The feeling is mutual.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

    Member thankful for this post:



  22. #52
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Twitter is not very reliable, the poll might have been manipulated by bots and partisans. On the other hand, NRT and K24 are also biased, not sure about ARA news, though.
    That's why I said it might not be reliable and just used it as a vague indicator.

    Good to see we can all get along though, if only the Middle East could debate issues in a friendly manner.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:



  23. #53
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Peshmerga and Iraq counter terrorism units are clashing at the Kirkuk´s Northern border town with Erbil at Altun Kupri. Apparently Peshmerga have blown up the town bridge which leads towards Erbil. Lots of strange claims about whats happening. There are reports of US Apache and Chinook helicopters at the sky. Very confusing once again.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  24. #54
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Kurdish forces are claiming to destroyed 10 Iraqi Humwee´s and 1 M1 Abrams tank so far. Iraqi claim to have captured lot of Kurdish artillery. Source´s even differ where the actual fight is taking place. Some are saying at Northern end of the town, while others North of the town. The only thing which is clear is that a real battle between these two sides have erupted.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

    Member thankful for this post:



  25. #55
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Catalonia

    I forgot about this, but on the topic of the Peshmerga being a bunch of militia rabble and the current situation:

    The German army just said that the training of Peshmerga fighters can continue soon, as the fighting between them and the Iraqi army has stopped. I remembered that we gave the Kurds some weapons (though I wasn't sure about which group), but we obviously also trained them.
    So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( ), I doubt that is what they are now.

    It's not sure though whether that's the latest info given the other sources about the fighting going on.
    Last edited by Husar; 10-20-2017 at 21:14.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  26. #56

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I forgot about this, but on the topic of the Peshmerga being a bunch of militia rabble and the current situation:

    The German army just said that the training of Peshmerga fighters can continue soon, as the fighting between them and the Iraqi army has stopped. I remembered that we gave the Kurds some weapons (though I wasn't sure about which group), but we obviously also trained them.
    So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( ), I doubt that is what they are now.

    It's not sure though whether that's the latest info given the other sources about the fighting going on.
    Then the Afghan National Army should be among the best fighting forces in the world right now, having been trained by the US military for 15 years.

    Of course that's not how it works. You have to consider access in terms of the time and place and duration of training, constraints and resources with respect to numbers, the type of training and the role or skillsets of the trainers and the trainees...

    Not to mention how much the trainees actually care, whether in absorbing the training or putting it to use independently.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:

    Husar 


  27. #57
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    I think in the following days we will witness better what will happen. In worst case scenario there will be internal conflict in Kurdistan. In best case scenario negotiations with Iraq will start and soon enough some sort of settlement will be done. Maybe afterwards Kurdish can settle their internal issues via elections. In any case the Peshmerga today seemed like nothing like the disorderly mob at Kirkuk, but stuck to their positions and gave fight to The Iraqis.This all is speculation, but it might be that the Iraqi PMU got carried away a bit and kept pushing too far, which the Peshmerga capitalized. At least the good thing is that the Kurdish forces decided to fight outside the town, not inside with civilians in the middle, so there is at least bit more humanity involved in today¨s fight compared to fights with ISIS as participant.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  28. #58
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Then the Afghan National Army should be among the best fighting forces in the world right now, having been trained by the US military for 15 years.

    Of course that's not how it works. You have to consider access in terms of the time and place and duration of training, constraints and resources with respect to numbers, the type of training and the role or skillsets of the trainers and the trainees...

    Not to mention how much the trainees actually care, whether in absorbing the training or putting it to use independently.
    Yes, but given that they were more or less fighting for their lives and those of their families, I thought they'd at least be motivated to learn.
    The Afghans can partially arrange themselves with the Taliban I guess and the Iraqi army apparently failed until it was fighting for Baghdad and is now also called well-trained and battle-hardened etc.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  29. #59
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Here is a good article about what the US diplomats tried to achieve before the events at Kirkuk: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/a...e-on-the-kurds

    Here another one about what happened today at the Kirkuk/Erbil border: http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-i...020-story.html
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 10-20-2017 at 23:20.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Yes, but given that they were more or less fighting for their lives and those of their families, I thought they'd at least be motivated to learn.
    The Afghans can partially arrange themselves with the Taliban I guess and the Iraqi army apparently failed until it was fighting for Baghdad and is now also called well-trained and battle-hardened etc.
    Maybe. But I think you realized, I was being pedantic specifically regarding

    So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( ), I doubt that is what they are now.
    It's a weakness.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO