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Thread: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    I just started an Imagawa campaign I have encountered a bit strange thing. I am not sure whether it is a bug or not. I have invaded Owari in the second turn. Oda defended with one SA and with his Damyio. I attacked with 2 YS, 2 SA and myself (i.e. Lord Imagawa himself . I easily swept away Oda, though Lord Oda himself managed to save his pitiful life. Alas, my troubles just started. The peasants and samurais of Oda revolted in the freshly conquered province. Well, in itself it is no big deal (though I had more than 200 samurais in the province + myself). However, they fielded an army of 1 YS, 2 YA, 1 SA, 1 NOD (!!) and 1 CA (!!). That is, they produced units (nodachi, cavalry archers) that were surely not available to any of the clans at that stage of the campaign! It was just after the second turn! I understand that the AI needs some advantage to be competitive but this is unfair. What do you guys think? Is it unfair or just a „competitive feature” of the game?

    Cheetah
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  2. #2

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    Depending on the loyalty of the province, a number of different types of revolts can occur. The peasant revolt - the most common, consist of mainly ashi troops with one or 2 samurai units. The Samurai revolt usually has many more samurai troops, and since they are generated somewhat randomly, it is very possible that you could face an army of units that no one can yet "build". Think of it this way - a few nodachi warriors throughout the Oda lands heard about your attack, and decided to help try and free the province - so they all gathered and boom - were enough to form a whole No-Dachi unit.

    Is it fair - sure - you might as well be prepared to face a revolt. The religious ones are the REAL toughies - mostly Warrior Monks - with some sam's thrown in for good measure. Just stack more troops in the province for a few turns, maybe a shinobi or 2, and watch your loyalty rise...

    Qapla!

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  3. #3
    Member Member Yesugey's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    The revolts in STW are in the limits of fairness. Any province has another clan's armies and local Samurai, beside the dominant clan's army. You try to control an alien land with tens of thousands of inhabitans with only 100 troops, so they revolt against you. I saw many big revolt armies beyond the limits, yes. But you try to invade with 100 or 200 men, it means you kind of deserved it.

    (The revolts in Medieval TW is a different story though. You make no mistakes, no civil blunder at all.. and suddenly a faction reappears in maybe 10 provinces with 4-5 stacks. Very, very irritating.)

  4. #4

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yesugey View Post
    The revolts in STW are in the limits of fairness. Any province has another clan's armies and local Samurai, beside the dominant clan's army. You try to control an alien land with tens of thousands of inhabitans with only 100 troops, so they revolt against you. I saw many big revolt armies beyond the limits, yes. But you try to invade with 100 or 200 men, it means you kind of deserved it.

    (The revolts in Medieval TW is a different story though. You make no mistakes, no civil blunder at all.. and suddenly a faction reappears in maybe 10 provinces with 4-5 stacks. Very, very irritating.)
    Then there are the MTW papal rebellions. That guy just never quits!

    In STW, I guess there could be a rebellion in your favor involving troops no one can build yet. So I don't see what is unfair about it. AFAIK the rebellion rules are the same for the player faction and the AI factions, except that the player faction cannot come back from the dead.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    One of my favorite tactics is to stir up trouble in rear areas of enemy clans using roving hordes of shinobi. The AI tends to gob its armies in frontline provinces, leaving only token forces in the rear areas. Once I get my shinobi "factories" up and running, I start by flooding a port province with 15-20 shinobi. This is usually enough to incite a rebellion, but being a port province is usually put down by the AI by shifting troops back from other port provinces. The real fun begins when you split your shinobi group in two, and head inland in two different directions. I've managed to get rebellion in several adjacent provinces to succeed and cause the AI to have to move front-line stacks back to deal with them. Now I might face only one or two stacks in the province I really want

    I've also had the rare three-way battle where I send an army to the province I've incited rebellion in, and you get to face off with your enemy and a rebel army. If it's a province I want, I'll fight both armies...but if it's not, I defeat the faction army and withdraw, leaving the rebels in control
    High Plains Drifter

  6. #6

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Shinobi spamming is a bit of an exploit, IMO, but justifiable as an alternative to slogging it out forever against a vast Hojo hoard.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    justifiable as an alternative to slogging it out forever against a vast Hojo hoard.
    Exactly

    I've seen the AI park a dozen full stacks in a province...hardly a realistic situation, and cheezy to the max, as no province could support that many troops for any great length of time even with imports

    And as I said, I usually play Oda (and the Oda 1580 campaign is easily the most difficult, IMO) so there's no getting around a two-front war...I need an edge somewhere
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 01-16-2015 at 01:10.
    High Plains Drifter

  8. #8

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Sometimes you gotta fight cheese with cheese. After all these years, they really should have come up with a Hojo hoard reduction patch. No such luck.

    To be honest I have hardly ever played Oda. It takes Oda a while to really take off, and I run out of patience. Maybe if I had more time for playing and fewer games to divide that time between it would be different. Well, if I chose to live a life that didn't allow for more free time, whose fault is that?

    So give me the guys in green. Shimazu was my first faction, my first love.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    So give me the guys in green.
    Gah! Too easy...

    It takes Oda a while to really take off, and I run out of patience.
    Not so the Oda 1580 campaign. All clans start the 1580 date with a well developed infrastructure, and Oda starts with +3 Ashigaru, +3 Muskets, and possession of Ise, Owari, Yamato, Iga, Omi, Hida, and Mino. What makes this particular campaign so exciting is that somewhere in the first 2-4 seasons, you face an invasion in Mino from an Imagawa-Takeda alliance that you absolutely have to win or your position becomes untenable. No other TW game that I've played presents you with your first battle, at 1 : 2 odds or worse, that you must win in order to continue playing. Now if that doesn't get your blood pumping, I don't know what will.

    I had a whole series of screenies from one of those Oda 1580 games but, unfortunately, I let my Imageshack account expire when I shifted to PhotoBucket, and I no longer have the save-games handy

    You can glean a little bit of the dialogue and discussion here:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...aga-s-Ambition
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 01-17-2015 at 06:30.
    High Plains Drifter

  10. #10

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Well, maybe I'll give the 1580's a whirl some time. It will have to be good to wean me off of the Shimazu, though. They aren't challenging enough, but its a brand loyalty thing.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    It will have to be good to wean me off of the Shimazu, though.
    In the Oda 1580 campaign there will never be a dull moment. I'm really ticked at myself for not retrieving my screenies from ImageShack, because that particular game illustrated very well just how aggressive the STW AI can be. You can gather how surprised other players were from the written comments about the AI in the Nobunaga's Ambition game. Once I faced down the first attack, there followed at least two per year just from the Takeda/Imagawa alliance. When the boyz in Green and the boyz in Red showed up on my southern border, the attacks became one or two per season

    I was really proud of that campaign because I defended well, inflicting huge losses on the attackers, and, like a good Soviet WW2 planner, I maximized my infrastructure, hoarded my new recruits, and counter-attacked at the right moment. Nobunaga's Ambition was probably the most fun STW campaign I ever played.

    See what you've done.... Now I'm just going to have to fire up another one.....when I can make the time
    High Plains Drifter

  12. #12

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Well, yes I suppose it was my fault. This reminds me a bit of playing early as HRE in MTW with the umm, I forget the name of the mod but it added Bohemia among other countries. Bohemia and everyone else attacked me, and there was simply no way to protect all my provinces. I would have to lose and retake them. I could knock each opponent out for a while by inflicting heavy casualties, but didn't have enough forces to actually conquer any of them, so they could come back. It was a war of attrition until I could finally take the offensive.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  13. #13

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    I haven't time for a campaign right now, but I tried a few years, and I see your point. Takeda and Imagawa didn't make a joint attack on Mino, but Takeda invaded Hida, and I just don't see how they could be beaten, short of stripping other vulnerable provinces of too many troops. Maybe it would have been better to let them have Hida. Imagawa was much more manageable. They invaded Owari allowing me a bridge defense. They got hurt badly, but still, protecting Owari tied up troops needed elsewhere. I think the strategies and tactics that worked fine for other campaigns wouldn't work for Oda 1580. I definitely got food for thought.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Don't even try to hold Hida. Abandon it the first turn, and move those troops to Mino. Quite frequently, you will get loyalist revolts there for several turns. I use the troops to do as much damage as possible, and then withdraw what's left to Mino for refit.

    I don't know what difficulty level you are playing at, but at Expert level the AI is not so kind as to afford you bridge defense in Owari. I leave the minimum I can get away with to defend the bridges in Owari, and crank out +3 Ashi and +3 Muskets there. I don't know how well you like, or for that matter how good you are with the guns, but they are the key to playing Oda 1580. You get more "bang-for-the-buck" (no pun intended) which allows you to slowly build up reserves. I don't know your opinion of Ashi, but don't be afraid to use them liberally, at the start, until you can start producing your own cav and Yari. Owari gives +1 honor for Ashi (and Teppo are Ashi so this benefit goes to your musket, as well), and combined with a Legendary Swordsmith, your Ashi will stand up to Takeda's cavalry provided you don't let them get flanked and have good generals in the lead.

    At some point, Shimazu and Mori show up on your southern border and they usually crack their heads against those "beast-mode" Monks in Kawachi for some time. I like to prepare a force to take Kawachi for myself after it gets battered down a bit. Makes a nice anchor point for your southern front, and makes Shimazu have to engage you with suicidal bridge attacks or go after Mori.
    High Plains Drifter

  15. #15

    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    You get more "bang-for-the-buck" (no pun intended)
    OK 'fess up. You did intend it.

    Normally I play expert, but since you talked about the toughness of this campaign, I tried normal or average or whatever its called.

    Sounds interesting and I appreciate the walkthrough. Some day I'll give it a try for real.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: revolting peasants and samurais - unfair advantage?

    OK 'fess up. You did intend it.
    Oops...
    High Plains Drifter

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