The Last Samurai

[Hirosito]

Hi guys sorry if this upcoming film has already been talked about. but is there a conensus on how reality based it is and how much "hollywood history" there is in it.

[Ludens]

It is about a samurai rebellion agianst the emperor. The samurai wanted Japan to stay the same, the wanted to get rid of the foreign influences.
However, in the movie they take up a foreigner. That does not sound very historically corect if you ask me. But I know next to nothing about this uprising.

[Mega Dux Bob]

It was neat how the movie romanticized the guy who led to Japanies militarism. Given a chance Hollywood could do the same for the Nazis,...

[Voigtkampf]

I know that I saw some shots of the samurai armor/weapons and that they look very authentic, as if they were replicated by someone who knew his trade well.

[Longshanks]

The romanticization of the Samurai is in itself a twisting of historical facts. The Samurai often behaved like savages, just the like the European knights who in prior years were romanticized by Hollywood. After the demise of the Samurai the code of Bushido, particularly it's unflinching devotion to loyalty, justified a multitude of war crimes commited by the Japanese during WW2. It's a good thing that both the Samurai and Bushido ended up on history's rubbish heap.

[solypsist]

Dances with Wolves set in Japan.

[Papewaio]

Or as some wits call it

Dances with Sushi

[el_slapper]

It comes out the 14th in France. Worth it?

[Ashen]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Jan. 06 2004,03:07)]Or as some wits call it

Dances with Sushi

rofl

Or if set in england - Dances before a mid afternoon repast with some tea?

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ Jan. 05 2004,01:57)]The romanticization of the Samurai is in itself a twisting of historical facts. The Samurai often behaved like savages, just the like the European knights who in prior years were romanticized by Hollywood. After the demise of the Samurai the code of Bushido, particularly it's unflinching devotion to loyalty, justified a multitude of war crimes commited by the Japanese during WW2. It's a good thing that both the Samurai and Bushido ended up on history's rubbish heap.

Judging another culture through the prism of own culture, unavoidable consequence of life according to deterministic philosophers, rough and very false simplification in the eyes of others, less sophisticated… Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Judging another culture through the prism of own culture, unavoidable consequence of life according to deterministic philosophers, rough and very false simplification in the eyes of others, less sophisticated… Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?

All of the above are true:

1.Unavoidable consequence of life?
Although also an escuse, yes. Because outsiders are raised in a different culture, with different values, their view will always be distorted.
Although some outsiders might be able to achieve a very close aproximation. But that depends on personal integrety and sense of perfectionism.

2.Rough and very false simplification?
In the Big Business BlockBuster-style Hollywood attitude, that is always the way.
Roughly is the way they think. Falseness is just their way to achieve their money making goals. Simplification is, for them, necessary to reach the brainless (so they say) minds of the public.
In fact, it's their minds that think this way: roughly, falselly, simply. Adding to all that, the greedness...

Quote[/b] ]Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?

From that, there is no doubt...

[Voigtkampf]

Once more unto the breach, respected Lord Aymar...

[Major Robert Dump]

It was worth a matinee. Not the worst choice for a sunday evening cosidering all the garbage out there.

Dances with Wolves, Soly? Didn't you jump someone's case for calling it that a couple of weeks ago before they saw it?

Some of the fighting was outstanding, but it had the typical big-battle with the main characters leading their armies in the charge and dramatically living to be the final men standing in their corps and magically avoiding all bullets while their comrades fall like dogs around them....its called "protagonists bullet/arrowproof vest"...they have it in LOTR as well lol

Also, TC's character was not a civil war hero, he was a cavalry man indian fighter, or, as the movie makes it out -- indian slaughterer who had a guilty conscious.

Of course, I guess I could have gone to see Spy Kids 18

[Basileus]

Well ive heard alot of good and bad things about it..being historical is not one thing ive heard though heh..im still looking forward to seeing it though and try to imagine that its no kurosawa flick when doing it

[Brutal DLX]

The lord willing, I will watch this flick tonight and write about my impressions tomorrow.

Edit:

So, I watched it last night and I'll try to make it short, but with spoilers ahead, although the story really has not much twists so it doesn't hurt you to know.

It is fiction, the story is rather simple, desillusioned US cav captain gets sent to Japan to train newly raised conscript regiments to use firearms and fight against Samurai, which are explained to him as savages fighting with bows like the "Indians". During a premature attack when the regiments isn't ready, he is unpleasantly surprised of the fighting power of the Samurai and gets injured and captured in the process. He then is healed and learns the way of the Samurai and why they fight against the new troops in the first place. He decides to join them in their fight and they go down in a blaze of glory with him being the only survivor.
The story has its lengths, especially towards the middle of the movie, I felt the whole movie was a bit too long (~150 mins). The unavoidable love story felt misplaced but fortunately wasn't developed very much over the course of the film, the musical score was ok, although a bit more Asian influence would have been welcome. The way of living of the Samuria is romaticised and idealised so it stands in slight contrast to actual history. The cinematography is most excellent, beautiful shots of the scenery, equipment of the Samurai seems to be of good quality and the action scenes are done well, however there are just two minor skirmishes and the big final battle which wasn't very realistic, but well photographed.
Overall, if you liked Dances with Wolves, you'll like this one, if you like historical accuracy, this one is not for you, it's a purely fictuous story loosely linked to the historical opening of Japan to the West.

[Major Robert Dump]

AND IT HAD NINJAS

[Ser Clegane]

Nice movie to watch if you do not take it too serious. The battles scenes were fine and the costumes (without being an expert for details) looked great.

As mentioned before, although the story is generally based on the events of the Meiji Restoration (it seems that there has indeed been a guy named "Omura" whose task was to modernize the Japanese army, but he had been assassinated a couple of years before the movie takes place), the historical facts are indeed interpreted very freely (no guns in traditional samurai armies - sure ).

The character of the rebel leader Katsumoto seems to be loosely based on the historical figure of Saigo Takamori who led the rebellion of the samurai (however, IIRC the army was considerably larger than in the movie).

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, the Movie has made lots of "Hollywood"-History.

Japan signed a Pact with Prussia that a new Japanese Army should be trained by Prussian Officers, so Algren would never get the Position in the Movie.

There were several Rebellions against Meji, all started to end Japans foreign-friendly Policies and to end the Industrialisation. About 10.000 Samurais fought in a last large Battle and were defeated by the new trained "Hohei".

Some of the Prussian Officers who trained the Hohei, intended that the Samurai could still form a good Cavallary (Exactly, they intended to use what Shogun calls "Heavy Cavallary" as Husars.) Meji rejected: He wanted to remove the Samurai as they were rivals in Power, Meji wanted an unliteral Rule of himself and the Parilament.

The Bushido isn't the reason for Warcrimes in WW2, throughout someone should read Miyamoto Musashi's "Gomen no-Sho" and the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The favor of useing Violence as a political tool and the Imperialistic Ideology were the reasons for Warcrimes. In Case the Bushido is blamed for Warcrimes, you could also blame the Christianity for the Crusades, the Islam for 9.11 and Karl Marx for the cold War...

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Major Robert Dump @ Jan. 07 2004,19:19)]Dances with Wolves, Soly? Didn't you jump someone's case for calling it that a couple of weeks ago before they saw it? :mecry:
18

yeah, but I jumped his case because he hadn't seen it yet felt obliged to inform us of his opinion on the matter. I, on the other hand, did see the movie, and now agree with that comparison.

(btw, I really miss that smoking smilie)

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, I guess I could have gone to see Spy Kids 18

18? I thought it was "Spy Kids - she just turned 18", and I also thought this wasn't the kind of movie you find in the same theaters showing mainstream movies...heh

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The Bushido isn't the reason for Warcrimes in WW2, throughout someone should read Miyamoto Musashi's "Gomen no-Sho" and the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The favor of useing Violence as a political tool and the Imperialistic Ideology were the reasons for Warcrimes. In Case the Bushido is blamed for Warcrimes, you could also blame the Christianity for the Crusades, the Islam for 9.11 and Karl Marx for the cold War...

I totally agree. People tend to mix things up, or make the wrong conclusions.

Even I...

[Lazul]

hmmm... so historicly the officers helping Japan was prussian?...

What the f... im starting to hate "holywood". First they change the American ship in "Master and Commander" in to a french ship. (Do you yanks hate the french or something?).
And NOW they change the Prussian "hero" in to an American.

But I guess thats what hollywood does, the rape history and change the storylines in books to make americans not look so bad.

bha

[el_slapper]

The worse was Sinbad Sicilian. Damn, English fighting the french is the history of the 2nd millenium(not counting the 20th century), as we lastly fought in 1898 at Fachoda. So I can understand. The rest..... well, just say to the americans that everything well done on earth was from them, & everything bad from others.....

[Ja'chyra]

I think they call it artistic license we would call it drivel

Just think of the submarine film that captured the enigma coding machine (U-571?) It was the Brits who captured the first machine, at least there was small print at the end of the film even though it went so fast you couldn't read it.

I think they would have made William Wallace American if they could've got away with it.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, In the "last Samurai" the americans don't look very well either. In serveral Scenes the Character "Algren" intends he hates General Custer and americas behaviour against the Indians, making him a Warcriminal in modern Sight.

As in the Movie "Seven Years in Tibet", were Brad Pitt plays an Austrian, Tom Cruise could have played an Prussian either. Maybe that was more senseful, thropughout the historic Context and the simple fact that the Prussians and the Japanese have very similar Philosophys.

Anyway it is obviously that americans didn't train Japans new Army: In 1879, were the Movie takes place, America didn't play any important role in foreign affairs and was only seen very low at Militarypower. The Prussians in this Term had just defeated Denmark, Austria-Hungary and France in the Unionwars of Bismarck and were seen as the strongest Militarypower in Europe (and in this Time this ment to be the strongest in the whole world).

[Knight_Yellow]

without talking about any of the political uprisings and stuff the others im talking about heres my (and my dads) honest opinion.


Forgett history, just go watch it.

Very realistic fight scenes and plenty of action spaced throughout to keep you from getting bored.

*loved the bit where the 4 guys try to kill Cruise and he replays the whole fight over in his head, like hes found his Zone and is totaly at peace*

[Zen Blade]

Let the old man speak...



I liked the movie. The fight scenes were fairly good. The plot was cliched, but it was still very lovely. And Cruz could speak some decent Japanese.

I think the best part of the movie was the japanese cast. Very good in looking scary and all that stuff.

As for the historics... you have to tie it "roughly" to the samurai rebellion in western Kyushu (as I recall). As for the Americans, they never finished their trade treaty... so I would view it more of "in the middle of negotiations".

However, this, like most stories, is merely a tale whose purpose is to convey a message or a meaning. This movie's message is about culture, society, peace, change, and over-coming one's personal demons.

The worse part...

The way the director did not fully explain Hara Kiri (seppuku) to the audience. I am sure some people were like... "what's that????".

Anyways, back to the old folks home

-Zen Blade

[Major Robert Dump]

yes the cast and costumes were very cool.

I agree with KY, the coolest part was the battle where he was without sword and thought he had his pistol, but it turns out he was unarmed, and had to fight 4 assasins...very cool, I liked that scene a lot....

too bad the irishman had to die :P

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't understand the statement about Custer and war criminal....chock it up to misunderstanding, but Custer was a criminal, and a hoodlum, and a sorry cavalryman and I think this movie lightly reinforced that

Again folks, it's hollywood. It's fiction. Truth is stranger than fiction indeed, but truth doesn't always make the better 2 hour narrative motion picture. I swear, you bitches would complain if they made a movie based on the mongel invasion *if* the mongel navy had reached mainland Japan, even though it would be entirely fiction, but the movie would likely be cool as F*ck.

And people would whine "historically inaccurate waaaaaaaaaaaaah"

[makkyo]

The fighting in of itself is worth watching the movie. The authentic armor and weapons add to the great effects. I liked the part when the Imperial army used their gatling guns. A new age of warfare has come at last And the traditional samurai were absolete as any sort of military fighting force.
Even during the Japanese civil wars 200 years earlier, the samurai were introduced to early muskets. They simply covered the peasents with guns while they reloaded.
Even though the movie has a romanticised version of what the samurai where,it was great and worth watching none the less.