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Thread: THE CELTS

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    THE CELTS



    Premise: The Celts deserve their own culture (music / buildings / religion / units)



    Rome Total War is shaping up to be one of the most amazing military games of all time. For the first time in history, the epic feel of huge battles will be brought to life in our own homes without actual bloodshed (...though I'm sure CA will post a disclaimer about the impact on relationships )

    One aspect though persists in diminishing the ambience of this classic, ... the treatment of the Celtic culture / peoples.

    The Greeks called these distinct peoples the Keltoi which was a Celtic word that they used to describe themselves meaning “the hidden people”. Let's hope they don't remain so in RTW.


    The Keltoi or Celts as they became known, spread over 3/4 of the RTW map. The had a homogeneous culture bar a few very minor differences and enjoyed a "highly evolved and sophisticated society" - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002)."The Keltoi name was so great in the East that Kings, even before they were attacked, bought peace with large sums of money" (The Celts, Thrust to the East, 50; Daithi O Hogain 2002)

    "In both countries (Gaul & Briton) you find the same lifestyle, rituals and religious beliefs. There is no great difference in language, and there is the same hardihood in challenging danger..."- (Tacitus, The Agricola and Germania, Agricola: 11)

    They were fierce warriors that cherished freedom above all, literally taking heads if any would try and deprive them of their liberty.

    “They consider it a glory to die and a disgrace to survive without victory. They regarded it as the utmost disgrace to desert their leader, and after the fall of a leader, they retire from battle” – Posidonius (C1st BC)

    They had 100s of years of proud military history, fighting almost consistently against all other major factions of the period, and occasionally with them (eg. Carthage). They even defeated the great Roman Empire on a number of occasions. Aristotle claimed that “they fear neither earthquakes or waves”. Arrian records that when asked by Alexander the Great what they fear, they replied “We fear only that the sky will fall on our heads”

    Far from being 'barbarian', the Celts by today's standard were actually more advanced in some aspects than the 'civilised' states around them. They had complex legal, medical, and social systems which provided welfare / protection for the vulnerable. They had equality of sex 1,000 years before others even considered it. They were fastidious in personal appearance. Diodorous siculus points out that soap (sopa) was a Celtic innovation and word.

    “They (Celts) are very careful to avoid growing fat or big bellied and that if any young man exceeds the measure of a certain girdle he is fined” – Ephorus (C4th BC)

    Further, they influenced Rome immensely with military equipment, fighting technique and "sophistication in art, pottery, jewellery, enamelwork and advanced metalwork. One of the great skills developed by the Celts was their road building ability" - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). They were great traders, eg. British woollen goods were eagerly sought in Rome.

    “The Tribal centres, to which the Romans later applied the term ‘oppida’, were places of public assembly and trade and usually had highways to and from them. Many were situated on high ground and most had elaborate defences. The usual type of defence consisited of timber palisades, some ‘oppida’ had substantial fortifications of stone” – (Origin and Culture of the Celts, 17, Daithi O Hogain 2002)

    In 153 BC, it was the Celts that forced the Romans to change their calendar to make January 1st the beginning of the new year instead of March 15th. A charismatic Celtic leader called Salendicos fought single handedly into the Roman Consul Gracchus' camp and tent in an attempt to kill him. Almost succeeding, the Romans were so alarmed by this situation, bravery and audacity that they changed the date in order to facilitate the appointment of a new consul specifically for the task of supressing these warriors.

    “Violation of guest-friendship they regard as impious. Strangers who visit them for whatever reason they protect from injury and hold sacred, and every man’s house lies open and his food is shared with them regardless of person” – (J. Caesar, C1st BC)

    Publicius Vergilius Maro (70-19 BC) stated that the Celts were a people “living in harmony with nature within a divine scheme of things, and showing a deep sympathy for all living things and insisting that mankind must cooperate with nature”

    Given the immense impact these peoples had on world, the large amount of information we know about them, the survivability of the Bithronic tongue, Celtic music, interesting culture, druidic order etc etc, all this warrants inclusion with their own culture / buildings / music / language / units



    Celtic Warrior attire, equipment and arms - (click on parts of the picture)

    Celtic Fansite

    Celtic dressups



    PSYCHO V

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    THE GAULS


    (Diodorus Siculus, History)

    "Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with ripling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheaads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. They are cleanshaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the seperate checks close together and in various colours.

    (Diodorus Siculus, V,29,4- 5)

    "They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and carry off as booty, while striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses... they embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies..."

    When the Boii captured Roman Consul Lucius Postumius, Livy reported that they "stripped his body, cut off the head, and carried their spoils in triumph to the most hallowed of their temples. There they cleaned out the head, as is their custom, and gilded the skull, which thereafter served them as a holy vessel to pour libations from and as a drinking cup for the priest and the temple attendants."

    (Diodorus Siculus. V.30.2 -3)

    "Their armour includes man-sized shields decorated in individual fashion. Some of them have projecting bronze animals of fine workmanship... On their heads they wear bronze helmets which possess large projecting figures lending the appearance of enormous stature to the wearer. In some cases horns form one part with the helmet, while in other cases it is relief figures of the foreparts of birds or quadrupeds". (Many Helmets depicted a Raven. The Celts believed that the War goddess Catubdua ('battle-raveness') took the form of a raven and after battle carried the souls of the valiant to the after world)



    Raven Helmet

    "Their trumpets again are of a peculiar barbaric kind...and produce a harsh sound which suits the tumult of war. They shout in chorus with their deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rythmically against their shields. Some have iron breast-plates of chain- mail, while others fight naked (above the waist), for them the breastplate provided by nature suffices.

    Instead of the short sword they carry long swords held by iron or bronze chains and hanging along their right flank. Some wear gold plated or silver plated belts around their tunics.The spears which they brandish in battle, and which they call lanciae, have iron heads a cubit or more in length and a little less than two palms in breadth. Their swords are as long as the javelins of other peoples, and their javelins have points longer then swords.

    Some of their javelins are forged with a straight head, while some are spiral with breaks throughout their entire length, so that the blow not only cuts but also tears the flesh, and the recovery of the spear tears open the wound .."

    (Polybius' description of the Battle of Telamon, 225BC)

    "The Insubres and the Boil wore their trousers and light cloaks, but the Gaesatae had discarded their garments owing to their proud confidence in themselves.
    In this action Galas the Consul fell in the melee fighting with desperate courage, and his head was brought to the Celtic kings.
    All [the naked Gaesatae] in the leading companies [were] richly adorned with gold torcs and armlets."

    (Polybius)

    "The Romans... were terrified by the fine order of the Celtic host, and the dreadful din, for there were innumerable horn -blowers and trumpeters,and... the whole army were shouting their war-cries... Very terrifying too were the appearance and the gestures of the naked warriors in front, all in the prime of life and finely built men, and all in the leading companies richly adorned with gold torcs and armlets."

    (Strabo, IV,4,2)

    "The whole race... is madly fond of war, high -spirited and quick to battle... and on whatever pretext you stir them up, you will have them ready to face danger, even if they have nothing on their side but their own strength and courage ."

    (Strabo, IV,4,3)

    "Their arms correspond in size with their physique; a long sword fastened on the right side and a long shield, and spears of like dimension... "

    (Ammianus Marcellinus)

    "Almost all the Gauls are of tall stature, fair and ruddy, terrible for the fierceness of their eyes, fond of quarreling and of overbearing insolence."

    (Diodorus Siculus)

    "Physically the Gauls are terrifying in appearance, with deep sounding and very harsh voices. The Gallic women are not only equal to their husbands in stature but rival them in strength as well."

    (Diodorus Siculus)

    "They accumulate large quantities of gold and make use of it for personal ornament. For they wear bracelets on the wrists and arms, and around their necks thick rings of solid gold, and they wear also fine finger rings. They wear a striking kind of clothing, tunics dyed in various colours, and trousers which they call by the name of bracae, and they wear striped cloaks, fastened with buckles, thick in winter and light in summer, picked out with a variegated small check pattern"

    (Livy)

    "This was the enemy with whom the Romans had now to fight, a fierce nation (Celts), an enemy very terrying to them. Their tall physique, their huge shields and enormous swords, along with their songs as they go into battle, their howling and leaping, and fearful din of arms as they bang their shields according to some kind of ancestral custom - all these things designed to terrify"

    (J.Caesar)

    "They (Celtic Nervii of the Belgae)showed such bravery that when their front ranks had fallen, those immediately behind stood on their prostrate bodies to fight; and when these too fell and the corpses were piled high, the survivors kept hurling javelins as though from the top of a mound, and flung back spears intercepted by their shields, fighting to the last man"

    (J.Caesar)

    "The Gauls' mode of besieging is the same as that of the Belgae: when after having drawn a large number of men around the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be cast against the wall on all sides, [then], forming a testudo, they advance and undermine the wall: which was easily effected.."

    (Livy, Battle of Clusium 295 BC)

    “The Celts (Gauls), standing up in their chariots, and hurling their weapons, bore down on them (4 Roman legions) with a fearful clamour of hooves and wheels. Then the Celts ( infantry) came at them, wreaking havoc in all directions. Decius (Roman General) realised that the battle was almost lost and, solemnly dedicating himself to the gods, rode his horse right into the Celtic mass, where he was cut down. The Celts crowded exultantly around his body, flinging their javelins in all directions as if they had lost their wits. Fabius, patient and resourceful, was determined to avoid disaster. Perceiving that madness of war was upon the Celts, he sent reinforcements over to the weakened flanks, encouraging them to stand and renew their attack. The Celts stood in close formation with their shields overlapping in front of them, and the slaughter ended in stalemate.”


    Bituriges Warrior (2nd Century BC)

    Volcae Warrior (2nd Century BC)

    Arverni Warrior (1st Century BC)

    Gallic Cavalry (1st Century BC)

    Gallic Cavalry carrying severed heads(1st Century BC)

    Gallic Warrior








    PSYCHO V

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    THE BRITONS

    (Caesar, Gallic War V,14)

    “..They differ little from the Gallic customs. …(but) all the Britons dye themselves with wode, which occasions a bluish colour, and thereby have a more terrible appearance in fight. They wear their hair long, and have every part of their body shaved except their head and upper lip”

    (Tacitus, Agricola, 11)

    “The Britons, however, exhibit more spirit, as being a people whom a long peace has not yet enervated. Indeed we have understood that even the Gauls were once renowned in war; but, after a while, sloth following on ease crept over them, and they lost their courage along with their freedom. This too has happened to the long-conquered tribes of Britain; the rest are still what the Gauls once were.”

    (Caesar, Gallic War V,1)

    "in chariot fighting the Britons begin by driving all over the field hurling javelins, and generally the terror inspired by the horses and the noise of the wheels are sufficient to throw their opponent's ranks into disorder. Then, after making their way between the squadrons of their own cavalry, they jump down from the chariots and engage on foot. In the meantime their charioteers retire a short distance from the battle and place the chariots in such a position that their masters, if hard pressed by numbers, have an easy means of retreat to their own lines. Thus they combine the mobility of cavalry with the staying- power of infantry; and by daily training and practice they attain such proficiency that even on a steep incline they are able to control the horses at full gallop, and to check and turn them in a moment. They can run along the chariot pole, stand on the yoke, and get back into the chariot as quick as lightning …..To this was added, that they never fought (as infantry) in close order… and had detachments placed (in different parts), and then the one relieved the other, and the vigorous and fresh succeeded the wearied."

    (Strabo, Geography, 4.5.2)

    “Britons are taller than Celts (Gauls) and less light-haired (êsson xanthotriches), and their bodies are of looser build”



    Briton Chariot

    Briton Noble

    Briton Noble

    The Briton War Chariot

    Chariot History





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    THE DRUIDS

    The name Druid is derived from the Celtic word dru-wid. ‘Dru’ meaning immersion (‘Drus’ also the word for oak) and ‘Wid’ meaning knowledge. Thus a Druid is one ‘Immersed in Knowledge’.

    The Druids were “philosophers, judges, educators, historians, doctors, seers, astronomers, and astrologers..the native intellectual class of Celtic society” - (History of the Druids, Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002) They held a great deal of power in Celtic society, even to the point of intervening in tribal warfare. Such was the power of the Druids that “Often when the combatants are ranged face to face, and swords drawn and spears bristling, these men (Druids) come between the armies and stay the battle, just as wild beasts are sometimes held spellbound” - Diodorus Siculus. “They (Druids) even arbitrate in cases of war and made the opponents stop when they were about to line up for battle” - Strabo. “The Kings were not permitted to adopt or plan any course without due reference, so that in fact it was these (Druids) who ruled and the kings became their subordinates and instruments of their judgements” - Dio Chrysostom


    They generally wore white robes or tartan embroidered in gold, a torc and carried swords and an oak staff. Some Druids were also Kings and Chieftains (such as Divitiacus and Dumnorix) who wore regular armour and dress. It was Divitiacus, chieftain of the Aedui, that addressed the Roman senate in 60 BC to seek help against German incursions. Julius Caesar persuaded the Senate to side with his enemy, German king Ariovistus, thus beginning the chain of events leading to the subjugation of Gaul. Dumnorix (name meaning ‘king of the world’ / ancient version of L.Decaprio ) resisted after the death of his brother. When slain he cried that he was a “free man of a free nation”.

    An interesting characteristic of Male Druids was that they wore a 'tonsure', “shaven at the front of the head, on a line from ear to ear, with the hair growing long at the back”.

    Many Druids were women or ‘Bandruaid’. Camma, priestess of the goddess Brigantu, was one such Banduaid. Bandruaid were often appointed ambassadors and it was bandruaid that organised the treaty between the Volcae and Hannibal Barca.

    (Be great to have some Bandruaid ambassadors in RTW)

    According to Diogenes Laertius, the chief Druidic maxim was to “worship the gods, do no evil and exercise courage”. Two gods of note are Lugh Lamhfadha (‘Lugh of the Long Arm’) and Esus, depicted as a muscular woodcutter “who has to be propitiated by human sacrifice”
    Their core belief is summed up in their ‘motto’ “An Fhirinne in Aghaidh an tSaoil” meaning ‘The truth against the world’. The Druidic order / class was obsessed with learning, for only through learning and wisdom could one attain ‘Truth’. Some Druids studied for 20 years.

    Learning was conducted in what we would call ‘universities’. Druidic ‘universities’ were renown throughout the ancient world and it was one Spanish Pontius Pilate who allegedly studied at such a centre that was later to question a Jewish religious leader “what is truth?”.
    The centres offered “Seven Degrees of Wisdom”

    Fochluc (The art as slender as youth) (2 years)
    Mac Fuirmid (set to learn an art) (3 years)
    Dos (growing tree) (4 years)
    Cana (pillar of a house) (5 years)
    Cli (fountain) (6years)
    Anruth (noble stream) (9 years)
    Ollamh (professor) (12 years)

    (Imagine a Druidic school in RTW to train your leaders / youth to increase abilities to learn / speed of improvements etc etc)

    (post 2nd C AD) The Druids kept libraries in sacred groves called ‘Tech Screpta’ with books written in ‘Ogham’ on wooden wands called the ‘Rods of the Frili”



    Druid Priests

    Some Druids would join the Celtic priesthood and become ‘Gutuatri’ or “speakers” to the gods. They would recite incantations such as the ‘Tenmlaida’ (for long life). They were also involved in the Celtic baptism called ‘Baisteadh geinntlidhe’ (‘the Rain Wedge of Protection’) in which infants were sung over and named. Publius Terentius Varro (b.82BC) mentions the Druids use of ‘fire walking’ in judicial and ritualistic matters.
    Druids had rituals for the funeral of a departed person. They would have a feast (‘fled co-lige’), followed by funeral games (‘cluiche caintech’). A requiem was sung (‘ecnaire’) and eulogy recited (‘nuall-guba’). They would cremate the body of a chief and burn any of his prisoners. If a valiant warrior, they would bury him standing upright, armoured with his weapons, facing the enemy territory.



    Druid Judges

    The Celts had a strong sense of justice, right and wrong which they embodied in their justice system. The Irish High King Ollamh Fodhla allegedly founded rule by legislature and drew up a system of law in 714BC. He Founded the great festival of Tara (Feis Temhrach) to be held every three years and at which laws were discussed and revised.
    One of the most important functions of the Druids noticed by both Strabo and Caesar was that of judges in the Celtic law courts. Legal Druids could be a Solicitor called aignesa (to plead / argue one’s case), a Judge called breitheamh or Chief Magistrate called Aire Echta. Caesar mentions such magistrates such as Vergobret that was elected chief magistrate of the Aeduii in 52BC.
    Both Strabo and Caesar state that Druids were entrusted with all legal decisions both in private and public cases. Strabo states that “the Druids are considered the most just of men”, but that all Judges had to cite a fasach (precedent / maxim) in making any decision to justify their decisions. Caesar commented “their prestige as judges is immense, there is no appeal against their decisions”. If anyone refused the Druid’s decision, they were ostracised (dibert) from Celtic society and were to be “shunned by gods and man”. Interesting enough, we get our English word ‘boycott’ from the Irish when they instigated the ancient practice of dibert against Englishman Captain Charles Cunningham Boycott in 1880 for a famine induced by he and his countrymen.
    Caesar further mentions that the Celts of both Gaul and Briton held a great druidical assembly every seven years in the territory of the Carnutes in Gaul (Chartres) and that “people from all parts brought disputes” to the Druids for arbitration.



    Druid Historians

    The Druids were renowned for their ability to recite history. Tacitus states even by 69AD the druidic historians of Gaul were still telling the tale of how the Cisalpine Gauls were led by Brennos to defeat the Roman army and sack Rome some 450 years previous.

    Only Druids who have attained the highest degree of Ollamh were permitted to become a historian or seanchai (custodian).
    “Some ‘historians’ took a role which we could identify today as that of proto war-correspondents” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). Seathrun Ceitinn (1570-1649) quoted an ancient source since destroyed by the Cromwellian devastations in Ireland: “Every captain bore upon his standard his peculiar device or symbol, so that each distinct body of men could be easily distinguished from all others by those seanchai whose duty it was to attend on the chieftains when about to contend battle, and that these seanchai might then have a full view of the achievement of the combatants, so as to be able to give a true account of their particular deeds of valour”

    Further, non-Celts such as Livy “drew heavily from Celtic sources and his work contains more Celtic epics than Roman traditions” - (History of the Druids, Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). Some Celtic Historians of note used by other sources were Cornelius Nepos (100-25 BC) and Trogus Pompeius (27 BC – 14 AD)



    Druid Poets and Musicians

    The Celts had a great love of poetry, music and dancing and many sculptures, metal work and pottery depict dancing figures. They would hold regular contests for music and poetry.
    Poetry was sung rather than recited. Diodorus Siculus states “they have lyric poets whom they call bards. They sing to the accompaniment of instruments resembling lyres”. Posiedonius is quoted as stating that the Celts had a class of professional minstrels. We are told of one such bard Catullus.



    Druid Doctors

    Pliny was the first classical writer to dwell on the Druid’s reputation for medical knowledge. He speaks of eminent physicians in Gaul known for 100s of years before the Roman conquest and that they had “such excellent reputations that many (Romans) went to study with them” Among other, he lists the famous Crinias and Charmis of Marseilles. All Druid Physicians carried a stethoscope of horn called a ‘gipne’ and a bag full of medications called a ‘les’, which included sleeping draughts called ‘deoch suain’.

    Among the Druid procedures, they would perform Caesarean sections, amputations and brain surgery. When a chieftain (Cennfaelad) had his skull fractured by a sword blow, he was taken to a Celtic ‘Medical Hospital’ and had a portion of broken skull and brain removed, living to tell the tale. A skull (The Ovingdean Trephined Skull) found in 1935 by a fisherman, “had two large round holes deliberately cut into it over the brain. What is remarkable is that although the ancient surgeons had cut into the person’s skull on two separate occasions, the healing of the bone around the holes indicated that the patient lived for years before succumbing to sepsis from the second operation. Similar skulls have been discovered in France. To perform a trephining operation with the patient surviving indicates an advanced degree of medical knowledge” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002).
    Pliny commented on the “genus vatum medicorumque” of the Druids and we are inclined to agree.

    “Each territory had to maintain a ‘hospital’. Their law was exact on this; it should have four doors, be placed by a stream of running water, and be maintained free of charge or taxation by the local assembly. The first recorded Celtic hospital is that of Broin Bherg (House of Sorrow) at Emain Macha (Navan), founded in 377 BC allegedly by queen Macha Mong Ruadh. Only qualified Druids could treat the sick. If unqualified physicians were found practising then there were severe penalties. Each physician undertook by law to maintain four medical students (interns) and train them. We are told that a whole medical corps accompanied the army during war” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002).



    Druid Seers

    Druids could become a Neladoir (cloud diviner) or a Fisatoir (interpreter of vision) as a way of fortelling the future. They could also make use of a truismea (horoscope) to ‘fios a bhaint as na realtai’ (gain knowledge from the stars)

    One of the requirements of receiving the degree of Anruth was that a Druid must master the three rites of prophecy. These are the imbas forosnai, teinm laegda and dichetal do chennaib. The ‘inbas forosnai’ or ‘palm knowledge’ involve the Druid chewing a piece of specially prepared meat and going into a state of meditation, placing the palms of their hands on their cheeks until the future was fortold. The Teinm Laegda was performed slightly differently with the addition of bones or entrails but for the same purpose. The dichetal do chennaib was “spontaneous prose” where prophesy was foretold through the knowledge of the frili “without having meditated or even thought of them before”

    The crooking of the raven was deemed as a bad augury.



    Druids as Astronomers

    “The ancient Celts possessed a native skill in calendrical and astronomical knowledge…. Strabo, Caesar, Diodorus Siculus, Cicero, Pliny and Tacitus all pay tribute to Celtic knowledge in the field of astronomy” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). Caesar stated that “they (Druids) had much knowledge of the stars and their motions, of the size of the world and shape of the earth, of natural philosophy”. They were reported to know the names of 365 stars from memory.
    Its interesting that an Irish monk who had “access” to “ancient” Celtic knowledge, wrote a letter dated 1st May 748 to Pope Boniface discussing the doctrine that the world was round. Needless to say he wasn’t very popular. Another monk called Dungal used “ancient” (Celtic) knowledge to explain the two solar eclipses in 810 AD, demonstrating the “inclination of the plane of the moon’s orbit to that of the sun and earth”

    The Celts had a their own unique calendar system, Caesar commented that “they count periods of time not by the numbers of days but by the number of nights”. Cormac Mac Cuileannain stated that Druids could “estimate the hour of the night throughout the year by studying the position of the moon and stars”. This is backed up by the finding of the Coligny Calendar (1st Century BC) that now resides in the Palais des Arts in Lyons.

    The Druids also used a sundial called a ‘solam’ by day, often having inscriptions on them to the solar deity Grannos.



    Druid Magicians / Socerers

    Druids could become a corrguinech (Magician) and practice the art of sorcery (corrguine). They would carry a wand called a ‘slat an draoichta’ and “cast spells standing on one foot, with one arm outstretched and with one eye closed. They could allegedly utter the ‘glam dichenn’ curse to inflict injury on enemies, ‘ceo druidechta’ to conjure a fog or ‘dicheltair’ for a mist of invisibility” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002)
    There is mention of the “Druidic sleeps” in such a way that suggest a form of hypnotism.



    References



    PSYCHO V

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    Member Member Ashen's Avatar
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    Post more. This is very very interesting stuff
    HOF Winner 2003 - Sig Maker

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    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Excellent posts, PSYCHO

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    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Interesting and a good read, the public wants more…




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

    Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book

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    Just an Oldfart Member Basileus's Avatar
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    intressting read

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Aren't the Celts represented in RTW as the Gauls, Britons and Dacians (unsure if the last one was Celtic or Germanic)?
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    the Dacians were dacian
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Gauls and Britons are included, but I believe PYSCHO was talking about inclusion of Celtic Culture. I.e. there is a Hellenic, Roman, and Eastern cultures, but all the rest are lumped in Barbarian. (I may be wrong here on the details). Obviously, there should be a seperate Celtic culture.

    A very informative and interesting read Well done You've provided enough info. for CA to include Celts as a culture, which they ought to do

    Crazed Rabbit
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  12. #12
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Gauls and Britons are included, but I believe PYSCHO was talking about inclusion of Celtic Culture. I.e. there is a Hellenic, Roman, and Eastern cultures, but all the rest are lumped in Barbarian.
    I believe there are two Barbarian cultures in the game; the Western and Eastern variety.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ Jan. 06 2004,17:34)]THE CELTS

    Premise: The Celts deserve their own culture (music / buildings / religion / units)
    So do Slavs, but no one is talking about (defending) them and their rich cultural heritage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"So do Slavs, but no one is talking about (defending) them and their rich cultural heritage." - JANOSIK007
    Yer I understand Janosik, I would love to have the Slavs, in fact all cultures included but to be honest, the Slavs didn't play the same prominent part that the Celts did in this period.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"Gauls and Britons are included, but I believe PYSCHO was talking about inclusion of Celtic Culture. I.e. there is a Hellenic, Roman, and Eastern cultures, but all the rest are lumped in Barbarian. (I may be wrong here on the details). Obviously, there should be a seperate Celtic culture." - Crazed Rabbit
    Yup, spot on Crazed Rabbit. The Celts, Germans, Darcians ... Numidians, Libyans, Scythians? etc are to be lumped in as one (maybe two?)fantasy 'barbarian' cultures. Needless to say, this will greatly diminish if not extinguish the feel / ambience of this proud and prominent peoples, relegating them to the same historical inaccuracies endemic in the 18th and 19th century


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"You've provided enough info. for CA to include Celts as a culture, which they ought to do" - Crazed Rabbit
    We're living in hope


    Thanks to all. We just need to convince CA



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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Let's get the facts straight regarding what exactly 'culture' means in RTW. The concept of cultures in RTW exists primarily to provide the numerous factions' buildings, fortifications and other structures with the proper appearance on the strategic and tactical maps. Really, that's it in a nutshell. Everything you mentioned about the Celts and their achievements is not in question but what is in question is how their civilization looked compared to that of the other peoples of western, northern and central Europe. While the physical appearance of Celtic civilization differed greatly from that of the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians & Romans it probably looked identical to that of the Britons (a variation of your average Celt, no?) and somewhat if not remarkably similar to that of the Germans, Dacians, etc. Architectural similarity between those groups becomes even more plausible when you consider that the Celtic peoples dominated and influenced much of Western and Central Europe in the centuries leading up to Rome's rise as the superpower of western antiquity.

    Basically no one at CA has said that the Celts were not a distinct culture from the other barbarian peoples of Europe but how their settlements will be depicted on the strategic and tactical maps will be identical to those of other Western barbarians. When you also consider that the Celts, Germans, Dacians, etc. were not quite the civilization builders that the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians were I can understand why CA found it hard justifying spending the extra time and resources needed to flesh out their civilization as a unique cultural style.

    As to the actual cultural styles in question here is the official list (along with a few main factions which should use their style):

    And now, without further ado...

    Architectural Digest of Antiquity

    proudly presents

    THE SIX BASIC 'CULTURES' OF RTW


    Greek style - Carthaginians, Greeks & Macedonians

    Roman style - Julian, Scipii, Brutii and the Senate

    Eastern style - Parthians & Seleucids

    Egyptian style - Egyptians & Numidians

    Western Barbarian style - Celts, Brittons, Dacians & Germans

    Eastern Barbarian style - Scythians

    So don't fret, there is nothing that says the Celts won't have their own unique buildings, unit bonuses, etc.

    I am in agreement with you regarding the depiction of a Celtic culture style (the more the merrier I say) even if it does look similar to that of the Germans, Dacians, etc. but at least now you know why CA did what they did. However given the choice between allocating resources towards depicting an architecturally unique Celtic civilization and say, improving the strategic and tactical AI or the user interfaces I would definitely prefer CA work on the latter. And keep in mind 1) CA could change their mind and 2) there is always the expansion pack

    By the way, thanks for the history lesson on the Celts... no, seriously



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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    I do not agree that Carthaginians should be included in the Greek style, Spino.

    While they had Greek influences, nothing says "Phoenician" like the Carthaginians. And even that was an influence over time. The Carthaginians should have their own style, for they are so different from the other mediterranean powers of the age.

    Also, the Seleucids should be included in Greek, for they were a Successor kingdom, after all. That would coutn for units mainly, the cities they ruled must have been Eastern. Since the Ptolemaic Empire in RTW looks like ancient Rhamses II-Egypt with a light Greek flavor, they should be unique as well...

    Good post, by the way



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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Egyptian style - Egyptians & Numidians
    Interesting, but shouldn't the Numidians really be an Eastern barbarian culture? They had a tribal culture and lived in villages. Their warriors also used cow hide shields and didn't wear much armor.

    I agree also that Carthagianians shouldn't be "Greek."




  18. #18
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Also, the Seleucids should be included in Greek, for they were a Successor kingdom, after all. That would coutn for units mainly, the cities they ruled must have been Eastern. Since the Ptolemaic Empire in RTW looks like ancient Rhamses II-Egypt with a light Greek flavor, they should be unique as well...
    I agree but much of what the Seleucids ruled over was steeped in Persian culture and influence. I suppose a mish mash of Persian and Greek influence would be the best solution for the Seleucids but that probably won't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Interesting, but shouldn't the Numidians really be an Eastern barbarian culture? They had a tribal culture and lived in villages. Their warriors also used cow hide shields and didn't wear much armor.

    I agree also that Carthagianians shouldn't be "Greek."
    I also agree that the Numidians would be better represented in the Eastern barbarian style. I believe they are going to be represented in the Egyptian cultural style based on the fact that the Numidian faction is represented by the Egyptian 'Eye' (Eye of Horus?) on the strategic map. You can see this symbol in one of the few screenshots depicting the strategic map as well as the one that shows the faction selection screen. Basically this was a guess on my part and nothing more.

    The Carthaginians may have possessed a Phoenician culture but during the 3rd and 4th century Carthage adopted the architectural styles of the Greeks and Egyptians. So based on all the cultural styles available in RTW Greek is the only one that comes close.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Member Member PSYCHO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]“…what is in question is how their civilization looked compared to that of the other peoples of western, northern and central Europe… it probably looked identical to that of the Britons …and somewhat if not remarkably similar to that of the Germans, Dacians, etc. Architectural similarity between those groups becomes even more plausible when you consider that the Celtic peoples dominated and influenced much of Western and Central Europe in the centuries leading up to Rome's rise as the superpower of western antiquity…how their settlements will be depicted on the strategic and tactical maps will be identical to those of other Western barbarians” - Spino:

    Ok, to start off, the Britons in the RTW period had enjoyed the same Celtic ‘Middle La Tene’ culture since the British Iron Age B in the 4th century BC. The ‘Middle La Tene’ culture was also adhered to in Gaul, Spain and Galatia. So yes the Briton’s culture was, for all intents and purposes here, identical to that of Gaul. They were all sharing the same Celtic culture.

    Next, the Germans and Darcians were very very different, even in architecture. Yes the Germans had come to live in the areas previously dominated by the Celts, but they had over taken these Eastern areas during the ‘Late Hallstatt’ period when the Celts in the East hadn’t developed the same architectural abilities of those that headed West. During this period the Celts of the western ‘Late Hallstatt, Phase II’ culture were building large hill forts.
    By the Early ‘La Tene’ period (5th Century BC), the Celts were building huge hill forts, towers and even stone ‘castles’ such as the Gloucestershire and Otzenhausen hill forts. They built round family homes, and had advanced husbandry and agricultural skills, large farms and fenced fields etc.

    The Germans very rarely built fortifications (though the Chattan army was renowned for building a stockade at the close of every day similar to the Romans). When the Germans did build forts, they weren’t anything like the Celtic ones. The Germans were hunter-gatherers that lived off the land, augmented with some primitive husbandry. Some lived under the stars, others in long houses. Etc


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]”Let's get the facts straight regarding what exactly 'culture' means in RTW. The concept of cultures in RTW exists primarily to provide the numerous factions' buildings, fortifications and other structures with the proper appearance on the strategic and tactical maps.” - Spino:
    Let’s get the facts straight, culture, even in RTW, is not only exclusively about building appearance. It’s also about the technology, religion, social structure, military institutions etc etc inherent in the particular culture. These aspects are reflected in the buildings of the TW series to give the player a feel of the particular faction. Do you think the appearance of the “Cloaca Maxima” or the “The Vomitorium” are buildings that scream 'Roman' in and of themselves? No They are buildings that CA have included to help bring the 'Roman culture' to life. That’s their primary purpose, else there would be no ‘culture’ and all factions would just get generic building types.

    The Celts deserve their own culture,. They deserve their own religion, technology, arms, society etc etc …and the buildings, as aesthetic as they are, are there to convey that. Really, that's it in a nutshell.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"By the way, thanks for the history lesson on the Celts... no, seriously" - Spino:
    Thanks, no problem ... no seriously



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  20. #20
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Next, the Germans and Darcians were very very different, even in architecture. Yes the Germans had come to live in the areas previously dominated by the Celts, but they had over taken these Eastern areas during the ‘Late Hallstatt’ period when the Celts in the East hadn’t developed the same architectural abilities of those that headed West. During this period the Celts of the western ‘Late Hallstatt, Phase II’ culture were building large hill forts.
    By the Early ‘La Tene’ period (5th Century BC), the Celts were building huge hill forts, towers and even stone ‘castles’ such as the Gloucestershire and Otzenhausen hill forts. They built round family homes, and had advanced husbandry and agricultural skills, large farms and fenced fields etc.

    The Germans very rarely built fortifications (though the Chattan army was renowned for building a stockade at the close of every day similar to the Romans). When the Germans did build forts, they weren’t anything like the Celtic ones. The Germans were hunter-gatherers that lived off the land, augmented with some primitive husbandry. Some lived under the stars, others in long houses. Etc
    Ok Psycho, but you've unwittingly provided us with another possible reason why CA decided to make the factions of northern Europe share the same architectural style. If the Germanic tribes, a unified & playable faction, possessed little in the way of anything above a basic level of civilization and therefore were incapable of building even the most modest of fortifications then they're going to be at a serious disadvantage when facing off against more developed factions. In effect 'Celtic' architectural style becomes 'Northern Barbarian' style in order to address the shortcomings of the Germanic tribes of the period. As to the Dacians they really didn't become major players until midway through the 1st century B.C. (roughly 1/2 a century before the period represented in RTW ends) and since they're probably not a playable faction I can see why CA simply lumped them into the 'Western Barbarian' category. If RTW ended well into the 1st century A.D. then I'd say there would be a strong argument for a unique Dacian style as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Do you think appearance of the “Cloaca Maxima” or the “The Vomitorium” are buildings that scream 'Roman' in and of themselves? No They are buildings that CA have included to help bring the 'Roman culture' to life. That’s their primary purpose, else there would be no ‘culture’ and all factions would just get generic building types.
    Well this is going to be Rome Total War and if any factions are going to get the architectural royal treatment it's going to be the four Roman ones

    I'm in your corner on this one Psycho. I'm all for unique Celtic cultural representation in RTW but you have to get behind the mindset of the folks at CA to gain better understanding why they made certain decisions. Keep at it though, I'm sure there are plenty of people here and in the official forums who will offer their support. Someone at CA is bound to notice and we still have several months to go until RTW is released. But as I said before, even if we don't see this happen in the original release there is always the expansion pack.

    Anyway I'd really like to hear someone from CA chime in on this thread to give the official word on this topic.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Member Member PSYCHO's Avatar
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    Yes, from a business perspective, I'm very much aware of the rationale CA would have for not including the Celtic Culture. What I'm not aware of is whether, or to what degree, CA have really fully considered all the evidence, options and general interest that these ancient people will creat in the gaming community upon release.

    They did it with Shogun, the same exotic experience can be created here with the Celts.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I'm in your corner on this one Psycho....Keep at it though... Someone at CA is bound to notice and we still have several months to go until RTW is released.- Spino
    Thanks mate, oh I will. When CA announced the release date, I breathed a huge sigh of relief thinking that it was imminent...the extra time gave CA a little more time to consider and polish.I figure we have a month, two at the most to influence any CA decision. After that, it's all over red rover.


    I wouldn't count on an expansion adding to the Celts, if I was a CA marketer I'd be doing the 'barbarian' invasions of the late Imperial period. Further, CA have a track record with the Mongols and Vikings.

    Cheers



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    Member Member PSYCHO's Avatar
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    GOOD NEWS FROM THE .COM

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"OK within the next few weeks I will remove the unit profiles completely. As mentioned these have gone through a review and as such may no longer reflect the game as well as they could.

    However when I do take the old ones down I will start the new revised version which will be updated once a week. These should include new descriptions and a rotating 3D model of the unit in question. Should be a nice feature :b

    I will try to get this up and running by early Feb at the latest" - Shogun
    Does this mean we will see some historically accurate Celts, Germans and Darcians?

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    CELTIC WOMEN

    Classical writers mention the fierce independence, noble countenance and strong sense of dignity that Celtic women exhibited. There are accounts of Celtic women taking up arms and fighting along side the men in war, though most historians agree that this latter quality was the exception rather than the rule. The women did however attend the battles, often waving their children, bearing their naked breasts and chanting to urge the men on. The shame of defeat under the eyes of all, the suggested rape / slaughter and slavery of their wives and children used to fire the spirit of all combatants to do their part.
    “The Gallic women are not only equal to their husbands in stature but rival them in strength and courage as well." - (Diodorus Siculus)

    Plutarch cites Polybius’account of Chiomara, wife of the Tolistoboii chieftain, Ortagion,.

    Chiomara was captured by the Romans, and true to Roman form, the centurion raped her. When the centurion discovered that she was of high rank, he demanded a ransom from her husband. When time came for Chiomara to be handed over, the Roman received his ransom. While the centurion was distracted and gloating over his bounty, Chiomara struck him, drew his own sword and beheaded him with it, presenting it to her husband.
    The greek records part of a conversation with Chiomara in which she stated “A fine thing is good faith, a better thing only one man be alive who had intercourse with me”

    "When a Celt starts to quarrel with someone and his wife, who is grey- eyed and much stronger than him, comes to his assistance, no gang of strangers will take up with him, especially when, grinding her teeth, she waves her snowwhite arms and starts to distribute fistbeats and footkicks alternately" Ammianus Marcellinus (330-395 AD)

    It wasn’t until 697 AD that Cetic woman were forbidden to fight in battle. In that year a new law called the “Cain Adomnain’ was posed by Adomnan and ratified by the Synod of Birr. Adomnan was moved to propose the new law after an appeal by his mother as they crossed a battlefield together and saw a beheaded woman with her child still suckling at her breasts; “a stream of milk on one of its cheeks and a stream of blood on the other”



    Classical Celtic Warrior

    Suggested Unit



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    AHISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF CELTIC HISTORY

    The Celts have suffered from agenda based revisionism since the first accounts of their existence were recorded. Their history has been written and re-written over centuries, swayed by the tumult of ethno-political events, movements and agendas,... only recently being clawed back from obscurity.

    It began with the writers of the classical period but was given new impetus in the new dawning of European national identity.

    When the last Breton army was defeated in 1488 by the French, the Bretons were forced to sign the Treaty of Union between Brittany and France. Frenchman Jean le Fevre was sponsored by his King to write ‘Les Fleurs et Antiquitez des Gaules, ou il est traits des Anciens Philosophes Gaulois applelez Druides’ (1532) in which he stated “we are all Celts now”, claiming that the Germanic Franks and Celtic Bretons were all of the one Celtic stock.

    Elias Schedius claimed that Celts and Germans were the same people and that the Druids were the ancestors of all German peoples (1648, De Dis Germanis). The later Nazi Germans drew heavily on such texts to support their ethic theories on the Aryan race of blond hair/blue eyes, a Celtic not German physical characteristic / feature.

    Whilst Germans and French both claimed Celtic roots, the mood was very different in England.
    “Because the English had difficulty with accrediting the Celts with a strong culture or any ‘civilised’ talents or capabilities. After all, as conquerors, like the Romans, it would be imprudent of them to attribute any such qualities to those that they had conquered or were in the process of conquering, as they were at the time with the savage ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the Irish in Ireland.” - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). They found other ways of dealing with the history of the Celts.

    Thomas Smith claimed that the Druids and Celts were of Jewish / Semitic stock and that “Abraham was the patriarch of the Druids” (1644, Syntagama de Druidum moribus ac institutis). John Aubrey, married reports of the New World with his version of the Celts stating that they were “different nations of haughty barbarians and noble savages” (1649, Ancient Wiltshire). John Web, drawing on the works of Inigo Jones (1573-1652) claimed that the Celts had “no art, no sculpture, no science, language, culture, architecture or common religious belief” (1655, The Most Remarkable Antiquity of Great Britain). He claimed that Celtic culture actually belonged to the Anglo Saxons, who had also erected Stonehenge.

    Dr Walter Charleston disagreed and claimed Celtic culture for the Vikings, that they had built Stonehenge, (1663, Chorea Gigantum). Aylett Sammes claimed that the Druids were Phoenician bards who had influenced the ‘Celts’ with their ancient religion and culture (1676, Britannia Antiqua Illustrata). Rev Henry Rowlands traced the Druidic origins from Noah, stating that the Druids were the same as the patriarchal figures of the Old Testament. He dwelt heavily on the accounts of Celtic sacrifice, stating that these were “evidences that the Druids were following Old Testament traditions”, (1723, Mona Antiqua Restaurata).

    By 1746, the last Jacobite uprising had been suppressed in Scotland, Ireland had been subdued since 1691, there had been no uprising in Cornwall since 1549 and Wales had been pacified since Tudor times. Outwardly the Celtic world was now at peace with England and again the Celts received a new history.

    Poems by John Thomson (1700-174 , William Collins (1721-1759) and Thomas Gray (1716-1771) depicted the Druids / Celts as venerated nature-worshipping pacifists. William Stukeley is credited as the one who “brought the Druids both to Stonehenge and into modern folklore in a way that caught the fertile imaginations of subsequent writers” (Ellis) in his book (1740, Stonehenge, a temple restores to the British Druids).

    By the mid 1700s the French were again having problems with the Bretons. French centralist policies were encroaching on Brittany’s autonomous status, guaranteed under the Acts of Union and several Breton leaders had been executed for attempting to reassert Breton independence. Simon Pelloutiers was sponsored by his King to write another work, claiming that “the religion of the Germanic Franks and the Celts was one and the same thing” (1740, Histoire des Gaulois)

    In England, a ‘modern’ Druidic order, organised as a “friendly society with Masonic rituals” came into popularity. With the pious English having problems with some religious moral outrage about the re-emergence of a pagan priesthood as a group worthy of respect, the Druids received a Christian approval. William Cooke, rector of Oldbury, wrote a works arguing that the Druids were “so morally high minded that they were not ethically different from Christians”, (1754, An Enquiry into the Druidical and Patriarchal Religion)

    In James MacPherson’s ‘History of Great Britain’ (1773), we see the Druids presented in the new romantic imagery of semi-deified ‘white wizards’. William Blake claimed that Britain was the original Holy Land and ‘Jerusalem’ was not far from ‘Primrose Hill’ He stated that Britons were directly descended from Abraham and that “the Druids of England had set out with missionary zeal in the mists of time to establish their sacred temples of Oak across the face of the world and create the one true religion” (Ellis). Blake claims that Christ was crucified to a sacred oak (1804, Jerusalem, the Emanation of Giant Albion).

    Keeping in line with this move to mysticism, the Druidic order in England split in 1833. The new order called “The United Ancient Order of Druids” focussed more on the “pseud theosophical ideas and mystical aspects” of the ancient Druids, rather than the former society model. It was to this new group that a well-known Winston Churchill joined on the 15th of August 1908. At his inauguration, ”some of the participants were wearing false beards and looking more like applicants for a job as Santa Claus than any self respecting Druid” (Ellis). By 1918 there were five different sects of Druids vying to perform their own sacred rites in Britain alone.

    “With the onset of the 1960s, Hippies and Alternative Religions regarded the Druids as fair game. The Druids were called upon as the prototypes of many ‘New Age’ ideas and credos. Sybyle Leek (1975, The complete Art to Witchcraft) claimed that she followed the “old religion very closely allied to Celtic witchcraft”. Yes, ‘Celtic witchcraft’ had suddenly arrived out of all the mishmash and hocus-pocus of modern Druidism” (Ellis). Gavin & Yvonne Frost (1978, A Witches guide to Life) stated, “We call our religion Celtic Witchcraft”. Ellis commented that this was “rooted in 16th & 17th century balderdash with a mind-blowing reinterpretation of history”

    By the 1980s not only new age beliefs and witchcraft, but esoteric Christianity and even ‘corn circles’ were given a Celtic gloss. In the 1990s the likes of John Matthews conjured images of the Druids as Zen Masters of the ancient world (1991, The Celtic Shaman).



    I think it’s worth finishing with a quote from Ellis:

    Celtic and Druidic ‘truths’ of every description, from ‘arcane knowledge’, ‘karmic destiny’, ‘ the true path to enlightenment’ to ‘mystic awareness’ are solicited in the commercial deluge of New Age philosophies. The Druids and the Celts were there when our 17th and 18th century ancestors sought ‘Romanticism’ as a counter-balance to the ‘Age of Reason’ and industrialisation. It is not surprising that they are still being reinvented at this time because, in our sad and sorry contemporary world, people still want a quick fix on spirituality; because people, in the quest for truth and meaning in life, which seems the perennial human drive, prefer simple answers. It is easier to accept the cosy pictures of non-existent romantic / barbarian Celts and Druids rather than ponder the uncomfortable realities of these once proud, independent, sophisticated and advance peoples”. - (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002)



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    CELTIC EXPERIENCE OF THE CIVILISED ROMANS


    Livy stated that the Celts were "a race born to the clash of arms, fierce not only by nature but moreover by their hatred of the Roman people"

    Why this hatred you may ask?.....


    "When appeals of peace where ignored and Roman greed again drove them on, it so happened that a nobleman of the Boii went with his sons to the camp of the Consul Lucius Quinctius Flaminius, imploring the protection of the Roman people. The Consul was partying with a boy prostitute, and he enquired of the boy if he would like to see a man being killed. The boy nodded, and straight away Flaminius drew his sword and slew the unfortunate nobleman and then proceeded to rape the nobleman's son over his father's carcass" - (The Celts, Defeat of Cisalpine Gaul, 106; Daithi O Hogain 2002)


    Such behaviour just gave fuel to the wild passions of the Celtic peoples...

    Caratacos, King of the Catuvellauni and Trinovantes
    (The Agricola and Germania, 15, Tacitus)

    “Nothing is any longer safe from their greed and lust. In war it is at least a braver man who takes the spoil; as things stand with us, it is mostly cowards and shirkers that seize our homes, kidnap our children, and conscript our men.
    We have country, wives, and parents to fight for; the Romans have nothing but greed and self-indulgence. Back they will go, as their deified Julius went back, if we will emulate the valour we have in the past.
    The gods themselves are at last showing mercy to us Britons in keeping the Roman general away, with his army exiled in another land.”


    Calgacus, Warchief of the Venicones and Caledones
    (The Agricola and Germania, 29-32, Tacitus)

    “You have mustered to a man, and all of you are free.

    Battles against Rome have been won and lost before; but hope was never abandoned, since we were always here in reserve. We, the choicest flower of Britain’s manhood, were hidden away in her most secret places. Out of sight of subject shores, we kept even our eyes free from the defilement of tyranny. We, the most distant dwellers upon earth, the last of the free, have been shielded till today by our very remoteness and by the obscurity in which it has shrouded our name.

    There are no more nations beyond us; nothing is there but waves and rocks, and the Romans. Deadly are they, the Romans, for in them is an arrogance which no submission or good behaviour can escape. Pillagers of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder, and now they ransack even the sea. East and West alike have failed to satisfy them. They are the only people on earth to whose covetousness both riches and power over poverty are equally tempting. To robbery, butchery and rapine, they give the lying name of “government”; they create a desolation and call it peace

    Children and relatives, these are now being torn from us by conscription to slave in other lands. Our wives and sisters raped by men who are supposed to be our friends and guests. Our goods and money are consumed by taxation; our land is stripped of its harvest to fill their granaries; our hands and limbs are crippled by building under the lash of our oppressors.

    Since you cannot hope for mercy, take courage before it is to late to strive for what you hold most dear, liberty and honour. Let us then show, at the very first clash of arms, what manner of men Caledonia has kept in reserve.

    Which will you chose?, to submit to taxation, labour in the mines and all the other tribulations of slavery, or to follow your leader into battle? Whether you are to endure this forever or take quick vengeance, this field must decide. On then, into action; and as you go, think of those that you fight for, those that went before you and of those that shall come after”




    Wonder where Mel Gibson got his inspiration for that "fine speech" in Braveheart?



    PSYCHO V

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  26. #26
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Good work Psycho I am really enjoying this detailed account about the Celts.

    But one thing struck me as odd: 'CELTIC EXPERIENCE OF THE CIVILISED ROMANS' features only two quotes, that were made by ONE Roman. How can you be sure that this is accurate? I know that the Celts left no literature, but this way it seems like the only thing we know about the Celtic opinion of the Romans is from a Roman (even if this Roman is not very kindly disposed to his fellow countrymen).

    However, I like this thread and hope you will post more soon.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

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    Thanks Ludens.

    I am continually being surprised by new bits of information which seemed glossed over in contemporary accounts of history. Everyone seems focussed on the 'all conquering' Romans over the ‘barbarian hordes’.
    I just post interesting tit bits of stuff that I find fascinating, so I’m glad you enjoy them as well.

    As far as the ‘all conquering’ Romans go. It’s interesting that in battles between the Celts and Romans, the numbers are often a lot more even on average than people seem to think. Further, most battles won by the Romans were due to the fact that they were willing / had the discipline to sustain higher casualties. Most people seem to believe that the Romans just went into battle and slaughtered from the word go. Look through all the accounts of battles and you notice a trend. The battles won by Rome would come about when both sides received around 20-30% casualties. At this point many Celtic armies would waver and given a good Roman commander could easily be broken…leading to the huge casualties of the subsequent rout. Until that point casualties were often fairly even.

    Of course there were always exceptions but its an interesting observation that a few historians have picked up on. The Romans themselves point to this when they mention the Celtic propensity to ‘tire’ / loose heart after a period of fighting. Many of the ‘great’ Roman victories were at very heavy cost for a victor.

    Again there were exceptions. Some Celtic armies fought bravely to the end regardless of victory or defeat. Some battles would last all day in stalemate.

    As far as the accuracy, unfortunately the victors get to write the historical accounts. But I do believe the sentiment in Livy and even Tacitus' accounts are given strength when we consider the conduct of the Celts. They loved nothing more than defeating Romans and would commit suicide enmasse rather than subjugate themselves to defeat by such.

    They were passionate but not completely ‘mad’ as often portrayed by the Romans. Yes, many Celtic campaigns were for loot but just as many were directed against Rome for defence, vengence and justice despite the daunting odds. The Romans would readily risk death for power and wealth … the Celts would die for liberty and honour. One culture sacrificing principles for 'worldly' attainment the other sacrificing 'worldly' attainment for principles.


    my2bob



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    CELTIBERIANS

    Whilst there remained numerous distinctive Celtic tribes in Spain, many intermarried with the local Iberians, Asturians, Cantabrians and Tartessians. The biggest of these groups came to be known as the Celtiberians (Celt and Iberian)

    “In ancient times, these two peoples (Iberians and Celts) kept warring among themselves over the land (Spain), but when later they solved their differences and settled upon the land together, and when they went further and agreed to intermarriage with each other, on account of such an intermixing the two peoples received the appellation.

    ..As well as the distinctive Gallic attire mentioned during the Punic Wars the Celtiberians of the west dressed differently, living a more primitive existence in comparison to their more sophisticated Celtic cousins.

    ..They (Western Celtiberians) wore black clothes, hairy like goatskin. Some had shields of the lightly coloured Celtic type, and others had a round shield of the kind more familiar in the Greek world. About their shins and calves they wound greaves made of hair, and on their heads they wore bronze helmets adorned with purple crests. Their swords were two edged, shorter than the great Celtic ones, and wrought from excellent iron (form of gladius). They were accustomed to bury a piece of iron in the ground until the softer layers of the metal were rusted away, and they then forged the harder part of the metal into a sword. They also had dirks, a span in length, which they used for fighting at close quarters.

    ..They have some cavalry interspersed among the foot soldiers, and the horses are trained to traverse the mountains and to sink down on their knees at the word of command, in case of necessity. When the infantry are hard pressed, the cavalry would dismount and go to their assistance, pegging the reins of their horses to the ground. So well trained were the horses that they remained obediently in that spot despite the tumult of war, until the riders returned.

    ..These (Western Celtiberians), like other Iberians, are lazy and indifferent to hygiene, sleeping on the ground and using stale urine to wash their bodies and teeth.” – Posidonius (The Celts, Celtiberia, 77-80, Daithi O Hogan 2002)


    During the Battle of Carthage 204 BC, Publius Scipio offered freedom upon surrender to 4,000 Celtiberians that were surrounded and defiantly standing their ground. They did and were massacred to a man.

    In 151 BC, The semi-Celtic Lusitani were cornered by two Roman armies. Servius Sulpicius Galba offered their freedom if they layed down their arms. This they did but then Galba treacherously surrounded them and sent in soldiers to slaughter them “as they lamented and invoked the names of the gods and the pledges which they had received”. In all 10,000 fighting men and all their women, children and elderly were put to the sword.



    PSYCHO V

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    (All prevoius posts updated)


    THE GALLIC FACTION


    The area known as Gaul came from the word Galli, a corruption of the word Gal meaning valour. The area had been dominated by a people known as the Celts since the early 6th century BC when, due to population pressure, the lure of the fertile Gallic land and plunder, large Celtic tribes left their traditional Halstatt period tribal lands (in what was later to become Germania) and headed west.
    By mid 5th century BC, Ambicatus chief of the Cubi had move west across the Rhine and united all of Gaul in a confederacy under his leadership. Much like the Later Roman title of Caesar which stood as a symbol of power, centuries earlier Ambicatus had began the lineage of ‘Biturix’ (‘World King’) amongst the Gauls.

    By the mid 3rd century BC, the Romans began referring to two parts of Gaul. Transpaline Gaul or ‘Gallia Transalpina’ meaning ‘Gaul on the other side of Alps’; and Cisalpine Gaul or ‘Gallia Cisalpina’ meaning ‘Gaul this side of the Alps’. Augustus was later to further delineate Transpaline Gaul by gallic fashion, calling it ‘Gallia Comata’ or long hair Gaul (hair below the shoulders). The Gauls seen in Cisalpine, and Southern Gaul (Narbonensis) had shorter hair to the shoulders only, which up until the end of the 1st century BC they had spiked with lime and other materials.

    By Julius Caesars time, the Romans recognised three parts to Transalpine. In the opening lines of his ‘De Bello Gallico’, Caesar states that:

    “All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. The river Garonne separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the Marne and the Seine separate them from the Belgae. Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilization and refinement of [our] Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germans, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valour, as they contend with the Germans in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers. One part of these, which it has been said that the Gauls occupy, takes its beginning at the river Rhone; it is bounded by the river Garonne, the ocean, and the territories of the Belgae; it borders, too, on the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii, upon the river Rhine, and stretches toward the north. The Belgae rises from the extreme frontier of Gaul, extend to the lower part of the river Rhine; and look toward the north and the rising sun. Aquitania extends from the river Garonne to the Pyrenaean mountains and to that part of the ocean which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star”

    And so the three areas were to become known later as Gallia Aquitania, Gallia Belgica and Gallia Lugdunensis.
    Scholars now recognise that the different ‘language, customs and Laws’ that Caesar spoke of were minor differences that developed within Celtic society. Much in the same way as the modern English, Americans and Australians were to develop different dialects and cultural inflections due to time and isolation, the Gauls did the same. The Aquitanian Celts, settled and often intermarried with local Vascones (Basques) and Ligurians, had an older Celtic culture than the Belgae who had occasionally intermarried with the Germans, who in turn were culturally older than the ‘Celts’ of central Gaul. Whilst the Belgae had a separate confederacy to that of the ‘Celts’ of central Gaul (usually under the Aedui), the Aquitanian Celts were generally part of that later central confederacy. In RTW the ‘Aquitanians’ and ‘Cisalpians’ are treated as part of the Gaul faction, whilst the Northern Gallic Belgae, along with their other tribes in Southern Britain, represent the Briton faction.

    Gaul 1st Century BC



    Tribes worthy of note:


    Bituriges (‘World Kings’)

    Their capital was the huge "oppidum" (fortress) Avaricum (“Queen of Cities”), the biggest fortress in all of Gaul. These are the proud descendants of the Great King Ambicatus and the Cubi (‘victors’) tribe. They had reluctantly relinquished control of Gaul back to the Aedui in the 4th century BC but had still maintained a great deal of prestige amongst the Gauls.
    The Bituriges were a firm supporter of the Aedui confederacy and frequently fought the Arverni over territory.

    Biturige Chieftain
    Biturige Infantry
    Biturige Hornblower



    Aedui (derived from the god Aedos, ‘the fiery one’).

    Their capital was the great hill fort of Bibracte (now Mont Beuvray).

    “Archaeology at Bibracte: The Celtic site of Bibracte was rediscovered in the late 19th century by Jacques-Gabriel Bulliot and Joseph Déchelette. Their investigations on Mont Beuvray between 1867-1907 definitely established the hill as the site of the oppidum. Since 1984, the site has undergone a large international program of research, refining the site's interpretation, while uncovering part of the oppidum's stone ramparts, along with paved streets, public buildings, residential and artisans' quarters including bronze, copper, iron and enamelmakers' workshops. Artifacts from Bibracte are on display at the newly created Musée de la Civilisation Celtique at the site” - Athena Review, Journal of Archaeology

    The Aedui had settled in central Gaul and were the first to bring the tribes around them into an alliance. Once this was achieved, according to Livy (v. 34), they took part in the expedition of Bellovesus into Italy in the 6th century B.C. The mid 5th century saw the incursion of the Cubi, who defeated the Aedui to formed the great Gallic confederation. By the 4th century BC however, the Aedui were back in control, taking over the former confederacy. During this time the Belgae began moving west from their tribal lands in mid-western / north-western Germania. The religious Carnutes (related tribe to Aedui) temporarily took control of the confederacy to force the Belgae back, beginning the Belgaic migration to Southern Britain.
    The Aedui welcomed Roman intervention in south-east Gaul, becoming a client state (‘friend of Rome’) by the mid to late 2nd century BC.
    The Aedui were under constant threat from their neighbours to the south, the Arvernian Alliance of Arverni, Sequani and Allobroges. They traded frequently with the Mediterranean, but Roman and Greek traders did not always succeed in safely negotiating the territory of the ‘southern alliance’.
    The Aedui were no doubt influenced by the religious zeal of their Carnute neighbours and frequently made use of the ’Raven Helmet’ in warefare. In the same way as ancient Greeks painted the face of the god of the under world on their shields to inspire fear in the enemy, the Aedui wore the Raven on their Helmets. The Celts believed that the War goddess Catubdua ('battle-raveness') took the form of a raven and carried the souls off to the after world.

    Aedui Infantry



    Arverni (‘superior ones’)

    Their capital was at Gergovia ( La Roche Blanche) situated on a plateau 1,200 feet high at the north end of the mountains. The Arverni lands were rich in iron and silver resources and as such they came to be one of the wealthiest and best equipped of all the Gauls. Ardent enemies of the Aedui, they profited too by occasionally raiding their northern Aedui alliance neighbours. They also seized / placed high tariffs on trade to and from the Mediterranean trading ports such as Greek Marseilles. By the 2nd Century BC they were the most powerful tribe in all of Gaul.
    The wealth didn’t go unnoticed and the Romans soon marched north. Vehemently anti-Roman, their territory was hilly and difficult for Roman infantry and cavalry to manoeuvre in. Nonetheless, their king Bituitos was defeated in 121BC by a charge of Roman Elephants and the Roman ‘Provincia’ of Narbonensis was established. Interesting enough, there was little Roman restraint or interference as the Arverni again waged war on the Aedui, ally of Rome. The Romans seemingly content for the Gauls to slaughter each other.
    Arverni power was finally broken by the Germans under Ariovistus in 61 BC at the battle of Admagetobriga. Little is heard from them until the great Gallic leader Vercingetrix (‘great warrior’) emerges to take command of a united Gallic army.
    “He was a great speaker but he was also a shrewd campaigner, not prone to impetuosity like so many Celtic leaders, and proved himself a match for Caesar in strategy.” (The Destruction of Gaul, 162, Daithi O Hogain, 2002

    Arverni Heavy Infantry 1st century BC



    Carnutes (‘People of the horned one’, Celtic Deity Cernunnos)

    Related to the Aedui, the Carnutes established their capital at Autricum (Chartres) with their major commercial centre at Cenabum (Orleans). Their territory was covered by extensive forests many of which were regarded as sacred to the Celts. As the Centre of the Druidic religion in Gaul, they had many Druidic Schools. They held the great Gaulish council annually and the Great Druidic Council every three years.
    Despite the fact that Druids were exempt from military service, many served in the ranks of the Carnute army. Extremely fierce, their fanatical warriors are feared by the other Celtic tribes. The Carnutes were the ones to eject the Belgaic Catuvellauni (battle supeiors) from the Seine at the end of the 3rd century BC. Some of the Catuvellauni re-settled in Britain, founding Verulamium (St Alban’s) and becoming the most powerful group in southern Britain.
    The Carnute Druidic Leader Gutuator (‘voice father’) whose “oratory and advice had been very influential amongst the Gauls” led his tribe against Caesar during the great Gallic Rebellion. He was finally caught, flogged savagely then beheaded before the surviving Carnute Council.

    Carnute Infantry
    Carnute Heavy Cavalry
    Carnute Heavy Cavalry




    Veneti (‘clansmen’)

    The Veneti had a major centre on the south coast called Gwenea and their capital at Darioritum (Vannes). The Veneti were the most powerful of the Celtic tribes in the area called Armorici.
    A Maritime nation, they had an extensive fleet of huge oak ‘long boat’ styled ships which they employed in regular trade and raiding. The primary trade was with northern Spain and southern Briton.
    "These Veneti exercise by far the most extensive authority over all the sea-coast in those districts, for they have numerous ships, in which it is their custom to sail to Britain, and they excell the rest in the theory and practice of navigation. ..." (Caesar De Bello Gallico iii.8)
    Sharing a border with the Carnutes, they engaged in extensive trade with the rest of Gaul through them and were greatly influenced by their religious practices.
    Fiercely independent they resisted all attempts by foreigners to subdue them. They refused set battles where ever possible, preferring to hide in the extensive forests and hills to launch guerilla raids against the invaders. They gained additional wealth through raiding the Western Lusitnaians and Tartessians ‘Spanards’ as well as the Halstatt tribes of Western Ireland and Northern Briton.
    Having made off with many female captives from Iberian Peninsula, their appearance was more swarthy, with short dark hair.

    Veneti Standard Bearer



    Allobroges ("aliens")

    The Allobroges had chief towns at Geneva (Genava) and Grenoble (Cularo), with their capital at Vienne (Vienna). As a port on the major trade route of the Rhône river, Vienna grew to be the second-largest city in Gaul with huge store houses for goods built along the river side. They were the principle point of the wine trade north and were famous in Rome for their wheat and fine wood products. By the late 1st Century BC, the Allobroges also collected tolls on road traffic passing up the Via Agrippa, the major Roman road that connected Arelete (modern Arles). Several roads from Rome, coming through Alpine passes, also connected to Vienne. Romanised Vienne had become what Tacitus calls a "historic and imposing city".
    It is interesting that the Allobroges seem to have omitted the Celtic diety Cernunnos, the ‘horned god’, from their pantheon. Cernunnos was held in high esteem amongst the northern Aedui confederacy (especially the Carnutes) and some scholars believe this was a move to reduce their effect on their own troops in battle. Instead they gave special veneration to the Gualish hammer-God Sucellus who amongst other things has been attributed with wine-making.

    Allobroge Heavy Infantry 1st Century BC



    More to follow….



    PSYCHO V

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    SUGGESTED UNITS FOR THE GAUL FACTION

    See HERE for suggested Gallic unit list






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