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Thread: Turks

  1. #31
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    hello, I think that turk horse tactics are excellant against AI but most of the human armies have a lot of foot, archers. In BKB mod however, we have seljuq lunatics. excellant attack... horse archers... you do the maths

  2. #32
    Urwendur Ûrîbêl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    -
    Late/Normal

    Divide your starting army and take the surrounding provinces. 2 units per province will suffice. You may consider bribing the rebel forces in Trebizond too.

    After the first blow, get ready for the inevitable Mongol assault. Once you stop them, Kilikia and Caucassus are yours for nothing.

    Get to the Mediterranean at once and build up your navy. Make extensive use of jihads against the crusades. The rest is plain and simple.

    Hth
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  3. #33
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    well JI is basically futuwwa+turcoman with both's strong point .... they have turco's defense and stability while having futuwwa's attack too...

    but here's my argument on why turcofoot is better...
    1.higher defense: futuwaa will die horriblly if they hit/get hit by just about anything that's not a peasent head on.... while turcoman will be able to hold their own (unless it's cavalry) for a while.... (givine you time to acturally pull somethign to help them... also makes them one of the best archer dual units in the game and great for leading a charge to draw missile fire....

    2. speed: turcoman is fast... futuwaa is not.... while u need to flank with futuwaa to do good damage.....

    3. valor: you easily acquire a province that give you higher valor turcoman.... while u can't upgrade futuwaa valor anymore than 1 you can get v2 turcoman.... (which is incrediablly good as a archer and pretty decent fighter...)

    4. req: futuwaa require slightly higher req than turcoman... not much but still...

    between the valor bonus and the fact that most ppl would surely build mosque/ribat anyway turcoman's moral isn't THAT big of a problem.... v1 turcoman have higher moral than a saracen infantry anyway... don't seem to see most ppl complaining about saracen infantry's terrible moral -_-

    not to meantion a incrediablly important fact that higher valor archer = much more effective ranged shooters...

    Turks have the easiest access to the super rigged v2 AHC anyway... they don't really need to have a slow low defense uncontrolled footarcher to do the mass flank killing for them.... what they DO need is something to fight on the melee line.... until they get Jannisary units they basically only have the saracen that's frontline worthy... i find that a line of saracen/turcoman tend to make for a very solid and strong center line giving ur horse archer a safe haven to retreat to and give ur rigged AHC time to do it's work

  4. #34
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    good points. maybe I should use turcomans foot more.

    I usually shoot with the futtuwas and then flank with the discounte ghazis leading the maneuver and futtuwwas following up with AHC rear attacking and saracen inf serving as the anvil.

    smashed many enemies with little losses.

    futtuwas provide quite a bit of hacking power on the flanks and it's not that hard to walk them around the flanks.

  5. #35
    Member Member mcv's Avatar
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    What about Ottoman infantry? They're a bit tougher than Futuwwas, but a bit better at fighting than Turcoman Foot. Especially when facing armour, which happens a lot when fighting Europeans. And they can get a valour bonus.

    Another disadvantage of Turcoman Foot is that they take up a lot of space. When you have a large army defending a small hill, they screw up your formation.


    mcv.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    ottoman inf I use quite a bit. to tell you the truth, there are so many turkish hybrids that it's a bit difficult to find a role for all of them.

    ottoman inf are pretty decent but only available High onwards and I usually start in early and tech for JIs so I get JIs when I hit High and find no use for any other hybrid unless cash strapped.

  7. #37
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    I think ottoman inf are only useful if ur starting a late game.... other wise u'll get JI anyway and those are better in everyway possible..... (expcet for money of course) and if ur REALLY cash strapped u still have the trusty desert archers...

  8. #38
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    well, against armor, they can do reasonably well.

    also, they are better than DAs and also their build reqs are really low.




  9. #39

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    my two cents about katank's blitz strategy:
    it pretty much works like you said, and it's great fun
    however, i'd like to point out some particular issues i was confronted with during my campaign:
    - first ransom of Eggy sultan in Antioch worked like a charm; second one, in Arabia, however, didn't quite work: I mistakenly killed the poor bastard But, since he had no heirs...no more Eggy. The rebels can be easily killed w/out a decent leader, or even bribed (although, since you missed out on the second ransom, I wouldn't advice bribing).
    My point is that if you're not concerned with money, and you wanna speed up the process of eliminating the Eggies, you can kill him and the faction will degenerate if he has no heirs.
    - Byz ransoming didn't work at all. I tried to trap their king, but it didn't quite work. I guess it's a matter of luck as to where and when he retreats. Here's what I did: attack Trebizond; king retreats to Const.; attack Const; king retreats to Nicaea; siege Const (no way I'll storm a citadel with barbican w/out siege eq). Ok, I thought, let's try to trap him in Nicaea. So I attacked Anatolia, and intended to attack him in Nicaea the next year, but in the same year, he tried to break the siege of Const. He failed, and disappeared My guess is he went to one of their crappy islands, because he sure didn't go to Bulgaria or Greece. Haven't seen him since, but I don't have a fleet yet.

    My point with this one is that you should be careful with how many mercs you invest into, because you can't totally rely on ransoms. I've cleaned Asia Minor up, but I'm broke right now.
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    cheapo strat.

    after Eggy sultan got ransomed.

    conquer Sinai.

    then, conquer the province he's in but autocalc

    autocalc would guarantee capture and not kill.

    then, move troops out and let the province go loyalist rebel

    then attack the other province.

    rinse repeat.

    loyalist rebels when you have no troops there aren't too bad and you get about 10k for every iteration and soon you'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

    the Byz emperor would sometimes get ransomed to Naples.

    just storm the citadel with mercs and autocalc.

    saves so much time and also money (mercs are supposed to fight and die, not fed)

  11. #41

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    er, ok, i know this is slightly (or more) off topic, but why is it that auto calcing is so unbelievably different from what a human can do ? For instance, how come you only get certain VnV's by autocalcing, but not if you fight those battles ?

    To be honest, I hadn't considered autocalcing - I was determined to fight myself so that I'd get a hang of the proper usage of HAs, etc. Besides the main reason for playing the game is the battles, right ? So I would very much like to be able to get similar results to autocalcing...

    sigh. I guess just for curiosity's sake, I'll reload and autocalc to see what the outcome is..
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    the idea is that in straight fights, their jedi powers rarely lets you capture them.

    they are either dead or escaped.

    autocalc I think almost guarantees the capture.

    Battles are great but why fight it out when it doesn't matter?

    by that time, he will have shredded units that can be beat by a general and spearmen most of the time.

    use your HAs on the Byz and have fun dragging the Byz around the map.

    I find that with 16 HAs, I can easily destroy 3-4 Byz inf a battle.

    to kill them far faster than replenishment means that you can weaken the Byz considerably

    after some raids, push to Const. and ransom their emperor.

  13. #43
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    Well if you already cornered them in a province with no escape rout... as soon as he start routing pull all ur units away from him and let him run off the map... or ####.. even let him retreat ...... it doesn't matter as long as you win the battle with him still alive u'll capture him.... just make sure he doesn't die (usually... try hitting him with things like spear man that doesn't do a whole lot of damage to him comparablly as say camals or armor piercing units .........

  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    the problem is him not wanting to run a lot of the times and with jedis, my solution was always massed archery+javs+naptha.

    the problem is that then I lose the ransom.

    I still autocalc if he only has a few rag tag units left and I don't want to kill him but want the ransom.

  15. #45
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    True but in terms of early game... first of all the eggy royal lines isn't much of a jedi usually (and u won't have naptha jav usually anywya)

  16. #46
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    still, killing him would mean no cash and even spears occasionally kill him.

    he doesn't rout very fast.

  17. #47
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    Hmmm just finished as the turks... some thoughts....
    If you start in early... the turk late units are a joke... ottman infantry are acturally the best amoung them due to AP... but even then JI and even turcoman/futuwaas are often still better.. (but if u get a master bowyers in rum they are somewhat worthwhile.)

    Ottman siphia is a piece of ****... why would i want to buidl a slightly more buffed slow saharan cav in late that require huge tech ??? even when i get the v2 once from edessa they are still only useable as light calvary.... but if i want light cav i rather have something that's acturally speedy...

    If OS was crap... the SOP is even crappier... 20 unit horse archer is ......

    I acturally realize that crossbows aren't bad units at all... yeah u never want to use them if u can use arbs... but if u need to use them... they are still far more effective than most normal archers against armored targets....

    Mental note... when u have a big empire... never send ur sultan into war XD... always keep him in a safe place with very secured sea connection to everywhere... or u'll lose half ur empire to rebels....

    Wow muslims have a HUGE advantage with jihad vs rebels... almost 9 outta 10 time the rebel will give you the province withotu a fight and give you HUGE money from capturing them all....

    And JHI is wow.... sending them against a pack of light cav is one of the most hilarious sights ever as the light cav litterally dissapear before they even get to run .... pretty much anything except maybe mass spearwalls melt away like ice in a hot summer's day against these guys.... the only way to beat them is to threat them like knights... pin with spear and flank with everything u got.... and they fight MUCh better than knights in melee and dont' suffer from AP and cav bonus as badly.... too bad i didn't mod my game to build grand mosque everywhere XD.....

  18. #48
    Member Member MadKow's Avatar
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    JHI is definitely wow. I do the trick of building military Academy then destroy Grand Mosque, and move it to another place. This normally means i can have around 4 Janissary building provinces during high, if i time all the buildings right, which i never do.

    Late units are definitely dissapointing, specially since you're all pumped up with Janissaries and want more and better.

    But lets face it, Turks are extremely powerfull as they are (played by a human because when the AI plays the turks they are always extinct by either the Egyptians of the Bizantines, atleast in my games.

  19. #49
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    on the topic of ottoman inf. i like them. I will generally have a master bowyer in rum anyway and AFAIK, they are cheaper than janny archers. so i use them.

  20. #50
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    SOPs aren't bad.

    their stats are comparable to late ghulams except for less charge.

    they get to shoot. I usually just have them as the general.

    the general you usually don't risk outright.

    parking him behind the spearwall to steady the troops is often a good option and if he has missile capabilities, he can at least pepper the enemy a bit.

  21. #51
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    I can't say SOP's are very effective for me... But then at only a 20 man unit, I can't expect much purchase from their missiles.

    Still they can be useful, even if they are outclassed in Late period.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  22. #52
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    Just a small topic for my first time on the forum: I'd like to know tips on the way to preserve a strong ennemy in a turkish campaign... I'm just fed up with fighting outdated troops when reaching late, in fact... Is kicking the Pope the only way to allow christian superpowers?
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

    Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!

  23. #53
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    try playing medmod.

    you can let the Spanish or the French become quite big.

    if you really want, crush factions close to them by raiding or assasinations to help them along their conquests.

    I've seen the Spanish have enough troops to wipe out the Mongols in a turn or two and also huge deposits of troops in places.

    The French can also be similarly scary in some campaigns.

  24. #54
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    thanks katank, I did not play medmod yet but heard that man from Illinois gived a bonus to light cavalry in brittany (early), that means this guy is really serious: breton cavalry used to beat the francs in the forest, preventing us to have the fate of our irish cousins who weren't able to resist the invaders... I really need to play medmod but I lended my vi disc... I have to wait for a while. Now, on the current version I discovered that killing the pope gives a boost to christian powers: my last GA campaign saw the spanish ending game with more that 240 pts and producing lancers (I keep the savegame... very good battles to be done on that map!), swiss pikemen, and chivalric knights with silver armour in Toulouse. I've been playing that game for more than one year (been badly injuried at work and had much, much time to spend) and never saw that before: I was holding a classical Croatia-hungary-Carpathia-moldavia-kiev-khazar line, with sicily, ireland and scandinavia, Spanish held everything else, but islands in the medit. tunisia and cyrenaica (almohads) and tyrolia to the swiss... That happened after I crushed the germans who were holding most of today's france (I thing I spent twenty years running after the emperor). The spanish, who had been static for centuries, began to grab the province from the southwest, and then all the way to Muscovy... Everytime he was excommunicated I killed the pope and my spanish friend gained a solid empire (and never waged war against me).
    Last thing, I'm sorry my english is so.... french and that I don't have internet at home... that I'm quite rare on the forum!
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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  25. #55
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    who might be the man from Illinois you are referring to? Is Wes from Illinois?

    I modded Brittany to give valor bonus to mtd. sarges too.

  26. #56
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    Well, I think Wes lives somewhere in the midwest, but I can mistake... how do you guys know more about our own (small, indeed) history than most of the Bretons themselves? Some thing about our cavalry: we had small nervous horses (today we have very big -more than one ton- cool ones) that were really used to fighting under trees. As long as we know about it, bretons used mounted archers with hit and run tactics... One or two french kings got so mad with that they just had to flee (battle of Ballon, about 845AD). I don't know if it's possible to mod horsemen for them not to get a "trees malus", but that would be the best way to have an historical breton unit. One just has to find a weak enough base unit to mod it.
    Katank, are you from New York? Many men like me, coming from many remote places in old Europe, must have told you about their little countrie's history, so I'll do it too. Bretons came from great brittain between the 4th and the 6th century. The legends wanted us to have fled the germanic tribes, but new studies say most of the breton groups who moved where from wales and cornwall, meaning my ancestors are due to have fled the scots, invading from Ireland. Thanks, Celtic Brothers! Brittany was the only place on the continent that was never conquered by Charlemagne (Carolus Magnus, I don't know the way he's called in English). Later the dukes of brittany became retainers of the french kings, as was supposed to be the english king. Mtw period was a long struggle to keep the country independant from french and english, quite successfully (the province was very rich that time: smooth climate, no famines) until our eleven years old duchess was married to a sixty years old french king in 1492. Independance ended in a group hug, wonderful isn't it?
    Last edited by Kekvit Irae; 08-25-2006 at 02:06.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

    Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!

  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    yes, I am from New York City. Bretagne is an interesting place. I actually have a few friends who are Bretons

    I think the penalty for cav in trees is hardcoded so to avoid that, we may have to mod an inf unit to have horsie graphics.

    I knew that brittany was famous for light cav and also had celtic origins but didn't know that it retained its independence for so long.

  28. #58
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    Well, independance is a big word... The princes of bretagne were very important retainers of the french king so when this was weak, the province had more than autonomy. Who would follow the french after Azincourt? The 15th century was a golden age for the great retainers of the french kingdom, bretagne (breizh in breton, that's more accurate) was very rich that time: I read something like two third of the ships entering Anvers or the thames in 1450 were breton, then integration to the king's domains had us following the stupid french policy about oceans, never getting organised (don't blame the french, it's a celtic behaviour) and beeing overran by english and dutch.
    That topic is not related to the Turks, anyway, so let's come back to it. I'd like to know how players do act with the sons who are not to become Sultans, since the Ottoman dynasty got most of his power when a very special law went to be applied, I read it in a biography of Soliman the lawyer (the magnificient): the Sultan had the right to have his brothers assassinated if no (royal) blood was spilled -most were asphixiated, until the 17th century when they were kept incaged for all their life. That gave the turkish empire a fantastic boost, smoothing the civil wars and allowing stable kingdom. What I'd like to know is when that rule was created. I like to apply it in my games, insuring the best of my sons to become the Sultan. That's cruel. Could the turkish specialists tell us more about it? It's not related to the Shari'at, neither to the Yasak (law of the steppes, both turkish and mongol), who thought about it and how was it accepted?
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

    Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!

  29. #59
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    I don't know about it historically but in the game I do it all the time.

    jedis are cool, odd useless heirs aren't. they typically lead a frontal suicide charge to occupy some strong enemy units.

  30. #60
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turks

    As I remember it, the first heir to get to the throne room of the palace got to be Sultan. It was literally a race.

    This somewhat barbaric practice sure kept the dissidents quiet. For one thing, nobody plotted with their favorite heir because there would definitely be only one sultan.

    That's all I remember off the top of my head, and I'm not extremely sure about that. Do a search for "Ottoman succession" and see what results you get.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

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