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Thread: The Complete Total War Unit Guide

  1. #31
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    I was wondering if you are to do a NTW guide as well, they have quite a following, and I need info on the cavalry weakness
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  2. #32

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    Great guide

    I play MTW for more than a year now and still learned something new (the accuracy penalty for archers when deployed in more then 2 ranks).

    But, only a small remark (I wouldn't be a geek if I didn't make one): Thralls are peasants indeed, but they do have a rank and anti cavalry bonus (so you could also consider them as the crappiest spearmen possible).

  3. #33
    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 12 2003,15:07)]voigtkampf
    What was your guide on? I wouldn't give up just because of my monster of a guide - there is space for many, many guides on this game without competition or repetition, that is the beauty of such a complex game. No two opinions are the same and new insights come from even the newest of players. Even after a year I am still suprised by some of the things that crop up on these forums.
    It was - IS - an all around guide, including everything, strategy, province info, tactical units, you name it... well, actually I didn't throw it away, because I already knew that they are at least a dozen guides out there which are much better than mine, but I do it for my own pleasure... And I won't be giving it up either, was just a way to say how detailed and good your work looks...

    Of course, the proper evaluation would last...Oh, boy And to think how long it took you to write it down

    Two thumbs up




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

    Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book

  4. #34

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    Great job

    It is a very nice contribution, and I have no doubt that it will earn a sticky. If it doesnt what will?

    Way to go froggy

    Ps. What will your next guide be about?





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  5. #35
    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 12 2003,05:19)]Anyone asking what my next guide is going to be on will be horribly tortured for several hours before being executed
    You must have missed that part Sjakihata...

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



  6. #36

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    Soneone asked what I'm doing next - it's horrible torture time Er, wait a minute....can't kill one of my proofreaders can I? Hmmm, what to do. Lets consult the Big Book of Evil Frogs



    Ok, I'll settle for asking Santa to give you a lump of coal instead of anything nice Lucky escape Sjakihata

    I am working on a beginner's guide to multiplayer with Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe, Dionysis9 and several others. I am the beginner with the dumb questions, the others are the people who know what they are doing. It's what you call a team effort. I am also musing the relative merits of Frog Tzu's Art of Total War (a battlefield guide) and some kind of faction based campaign guide.

    Marshal Murat
    I've not played NTW yet, I keep meaning to and then I forget. I will get around to it one day as it looks excellent. If I am remembering my Napoleonic tactics correctly (I don't know much) you should form square and shoot the heck out of cavalry. Standing in line formation with infantry is asking to die.

    cutepuppy
    I shall refine the thralls section to make it clear that they get the rank bonus etc.

    voigtkampf
    Sounds good, I shall look forward to reading it.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  7. #37

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    Btw froggy, I suggest you add a link to your sig with this guide
    Common Unreflected Drinking Only Smartens

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Sjakihata @ Dec. 13 2003,20:04)]Btw froggy, I suggest you add a link to your sig with this guide
    It won't fit unless I get rid of my motto/quote thingy and I like that as much as my precious avatar. I can't decide whether becoming a walking advert for your own work is a good thing or not, it sounds a bit egotistical. I contemplated a link in my sign for the beginner's guide but I didn't bother in the end, it was too long and just didn't seem right.

    In more interesting news I have slapped an announcement and link on the org's front page. Ah, the joy of a new password I have also added a table showing how many men are in each unit on the varying sizes. Also a section on cheat codes and command lines.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  9. #39
    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    I take some issue with your Naginata Cavalry section.
    Two groups of 3 fully upgraded Nag Cav can wipe the field clean leaving a bunch of nice little rectangles of dead bodies.
    The key is focusing power.
    you move the 3 units up reasonably close to your target then charge.
    The two flank ones will come in on the sides and the enemy will be obliterated fast.
    Basically fully upgraded Nag Cav can charge front on against pretty much anything and expect to win even on their own.
    Once I have Nag Cav, I don't bother with any other type.

    Archers: I find fairly often that four ranks can be better than 2 or 3.
    Its an issue with hills really.
    A unit set up four deep on one side of a hill with another on the other side will do better than two units set up 2 ranks deep right across the hill.

    The unit right across the hill is likely to be left with only part of it firing at a given unit.

    The hill helps the back ranks of archers shoot & it is generally much better to have your whole archer unit shooting even with accuracy penalty than to have half of them not shooting.

    As well as great all round, Mongol Light Cav are about the best router chasers.
    Their high speed + good melee + high charge = leaving a thick trail of caught routers.
    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  10. #40
    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 13 2003,12:20)]voigtkampf
    Sounds good, I shall look forward to reading it.
    If I find time to finish it off...

    I'm already spending too much time on these forums, while I have tons of work waiting for me, but I just can't help myself Boy, if I could just freeze time for a couple of months...



    Frogmaster, why not putting this in a PDF version? It certainly deserves place in the download halls of the Org




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

    Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book

  11. #41

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    voigtkampf
    I will ok the PDF when posts like arrrse's stop appearing, or at least become infrequent. Since I won't be able to update the PDF to a new version every day it is best to wait until there is as much in it as possible.

    arrrse
    Mongol light cav - sounds good and is blazingly obvious How did I manage to miss that?

    Archers - I had often wondered about trying something like that but I never got around to it. EDIT: Do'oh Talking about a different idea (steep enough slopes might reduce the accuracy penalty if the rear ranks get high enough up, maybe?), must need more tea to wake up Er, anyway I shall try and get some snaps of the effect you mentioned.

    Naginata cav - I shall try those out before adding them in. Firstly it is easier to write a complex tactic when you know how to use it, secondly it gives me an excuse to play some more Shogun

    I shall come back and edit the whole lot in one go.

    No one wants to complain about the assorted mounted missile unit tactics? Very suprising since I don't like using those units much and so my tactics aren't exactly honed. There certainly haven't been as many corrections or additions as I expected, odd.



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  12. #42
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Great job frogbeastegg
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Citera[/b] ]Ballista

    Ballistae are the worst artillery hands down. They do little damage against walls and have a short range (for artillery, compared to archers it is a long range) and this often leads to their crews getting killed by castle defences before they do much damage. Against people ballistae are reasonably accurate but since the missile will hit one, and only one, man they are not as good as the more conventional missile units. Ballistae cannot turn in place.
    Ballistas sucks but they CAN turn
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  13. #43

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    Ironside
    Thanks, entry fixed.

    arrrse
    Well I tried out your naginata cavalry suggestion but I must be doing something wrong because they got utterly slaughtered By an equal number of yari cavalry. In a fair fight on equal ground. Attacked from the front. At the same honour. Poor naginata cavalry, how embarrassing Their families must be commiting sepuku as I type. When I do my usual blunt as a shovel cavalry tactics (aka charge ) I would have won that easily. I couldn't get the enemy units to seperate out enough for me to mob them with all 3 units of my cavalry. I also tried it against the weaker infantry types and the naginata cavalry did win but with heavier losses than if I'd just used a combined arms infantry/cavalry army. Finally I tried some fully upgraded naginata cavalry against some bog standard monks and I did win with more kills than losses but with fully upgraded units that was never going to be hard. Still couldn't get the surround and kill effect to work. Fancy cavalry tactics have never been my forte, generally I charge, or flank and charge and that is it. Cavalry archer tactics are classed as 'faffing about' in the froggy lexicon - I just don't have the patience or fine control to really pull them off with anything more than 2 units.

    Perhaps you could write a small section describing the tactic in detail? Keep it short and matching the rest of the guide and I can just copy and paste it over, giving you credit. I might learn a bit from it myself Keep the upgrades out of it though - any unit can be deadly when it is fully upgraded and the opponent is not. Basic, honour 0 units only for the sake of fairness, as that is what the other units in the guide are written as. Also if the enemy are equally upgraded everything balances back out. Same applied to honour levels.

    Anyway, updated the archer section with new picture and explanation, also added to Mongol light cavalry.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  14. #44
    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 14 2003,05:12)]voigtkampf
    I will ok the PDF when posts like arrrse's stop appearing, or at least become infrequent. Since I won't be able to update the PDF to a new version every day it is best to wait until there is as much in it as possible.
    Expected and reasonable decision, good to know you are going to do it eventually




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

    Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book

  15. #45
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Nizari can be build. You need a grand mosque to do so. They also have large shields, not small ones.

    One thing I´m missing is shield-modificator. CMAA for example have large shields but a modificator of 0.5

  16. #46
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Oh many froggy, not played NTW yet I know what Santa is getting you
    Well, i guess I can wait and play handball
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  17. #47

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    Someone at CA employ that Frog to write the strat guide for RTW
    "I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath."

    Senator Augustus Verginius

  18. #48

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    1. Nizari fixed and credited.
    2. Looking for shield modifer bonus list to add to appendix. EDIT: Found a small, old post on the subject and I don't understand half of it. All this stuff about 0.5 and 0.0 modifers affecting the bonus the shield gives and whether the shield is used in a melee makes my head spin Also the VI roundshield is missing. Anyone got a handy chart or something of the bonuses?
    3. Addressed issues raised by fruitfly in the Entrance Hall:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"Hi everyone,

    I've just been reading this fantastic guide to all the units in the total war games, and came across this comment:

    No one wants to complain about the assorted mounted missile unit tactics? Very suprising since I don't like using those units much and so my tactics aren't exactly honed. There certainly haven't been as many corrections or additions as I expected, odd.


    I was going to post a reply in that thread, but I'm not allowed to so I thought I'd stick it here instead - if someone feels like copying it over, that'd be great.

    The main point is to do with Steppe Heavy Cavalry. They're listed in the heavy cavalry section, but their main advantage is the fact that they're armed with bows. This makes them incredibly effective as you can use a couple of units on one flank to pull enemy units out of position. Once you've done this, they're powerful enough in melee to charge, flank and rout the remainder of the enemy unit before returning to pick on a fresh bunch of troops. They have all the advantages of regular cavalry archers, with the bonus that (like boyars) they don't need to run away as soon as the enemy start chasing them. They're the most powerful mounted archer unit available to all factions and due to their melee ability don't need to be babysat as much as lighter horse archer units.

    The only other thing I was going to add was about Spanish Jinetes. They're immensely useful when crusading as their light armour, high speed and relatively good melee ability make them ideal for flanking desert armies, with the advantage that their javelins can make a mess of AUM and other assorted armoured nasties."
    To which I say: Thanks, Heaven knows what happened in the steppe heavy cavalry section for that kind of error to appear For some reason I forgot they had bows it must have been late at night or something.

    4. Would love to do RTW guide. Play the game early, get paid, have easy access to all the stats etc. Heaven.
    5. Not got anything much to write, bad spelling is setting in again. I shall finish writing The Machiavellian Adventures of Princess Eleanor after all, I need something to do....well that and the aforementioned princess keeps throwing knives at me and poisoning my drinks because she is getting tired of waiting Who says having characters come to live is a good thing? Look for the next part in the Mead Hall...sometime. It is long, also annoyingly hard to write without it turning into a mess like the first half of the first story.
    6. I get the feeling I am missing something but I can't remember what. Was there something else I said I'd add to the guide that I haven't already done?



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  19. #49

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    Nice work frogbeastegg I had read the entire post and it is really informative. Thanks and cheers
    A Member of Clan SG


    "水无常形,兵无常势"

  20. #50
    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Wow, great guide froggy.

    Just one thing is that Welsh Bandits can also hide in the open, making them even more incredible.

  21. #51
    Member Member The_678's Avatar
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    Hey Froggy just wanted to add my praise tto all the rest.

    Also I noticed that there are no Sherwood Foresters in your guide. I don't know if they are even playable but they are a kickass unit that is in the Unit_prod file.

    Once again great guide.

    Otto - They call them fingers, but I've never seen them fing...Oh there they go
    Cool Site

  22. #52
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Citera[/b] ]Once again you cannot build Futuwwas, they come in Jihads.
    Futuwwas are buildable, atleast the last time I played turks in v 1.1. You'll need a boyers guild and a swordsmith i think.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  23. #53

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    LordHugh
    Thanks, fixed up and credited.

    The_678
    We have a winner on the eagle eye prize That was what I was trying to remember yesterday - find out something about Sherwood foresters so I can at least give them a nominal entry. I noticed they were missing yesterday morning. I have no dieas about their stats or anything outside of that there are 12 men per unit on medium unit sizes. They aren't listed in the clan Berserk unit tool either. I have added in a placeholder entry:

    Sherwood Foresters.

    No Idea Has 12 men and can hide anywhere. Uses longbows? can't build them or use them in multiplayer/custom battles as they are generated rarely in rebellions.

    ironside
    Once again thanks, fixed and credited.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  24. #54

    Arrow

    Hm, IIRC they are in the unit compare tool, but I have to look again. You can get them by rebellions, and they are a mix between Welsh bandits and Hashishin. Should be used as such.
    I'll look them up if time allows, or maybe another patron can contribute.
    Ignoranti, quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est. -Seneca, Epistulae Morales, VIII, 71, 3

  25. #55
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    The foresters, even though they are a small unit they have an exelent attack ratting. Send your swordsmen in at caution , v2 of these guys can last quite a long time.

  26. #56
    Member Member MrWhipple's Avatar
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    Once an epic tome. I thought it would be hard to beat your Beginers Guide, But you surely outdid yoursesf this time. Keep up the good work, you are a credit to your species.
    MTW it's not a game; it's a part time job.
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  27. #57
    Member Member Kristaps's Avatar
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    great work, froggy

    one note on feudal foot knights. since the advent of druzhina cavalry, one can obtain feudal foot knights from this cavalry unit. they dismount in any battle situation not only sieges. the size of druzhina cavalry is also larger than the 'normal' cavalry unit size: it is the same as the size for regular sword units.



    Kristaps aka Kurlander
    A Livonian Rebel

  28. #58

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    Sherwood foresters
    Right, after a lot of work I found some stats for the forresters. Turns out my Clan Berserk unit tool was badly out of date and the current version has a lot more features, as well as the stats for the forresters. I have rewriten the section with Monk's and BrutalDLX's comments as a base - I have never seen the ellusive forresters myself Further tweakage is probably required so contribute away.

    Kristaps
    I was keeping the plain MTW section free of all references to VI for those crazy people out there who do not have the add-on. However I have added a small note in brackets on Druzhina cavalry because it is quite important to know where you can get 80 cheap, easy to get and deadly swordsmen to rip your enemies up There is already a note on the fact druzhina cavalry turn into foot knights in the Druzhina section.



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  29. #59

    Arrow

    Oh, Lady Frog, I think you should mention that you are apparently playing the game at medium unit size (or whatever it is called), not the default unit size, which may lead to some confusion among the readers.
    The unit size you are playing on is one notch above default and adds one third to the default unit size.
    Default sizes are 60 for sword/axe inf, 100 for spear and peasant types, 40 for cav (exception druzhina and all royals)...

    I used to play at that size too, but found that in SP the AI is running into trouble due to the increased upkeep costs of the larger units.



    Ignoranti, quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est. -Seneca, Epistulae Morales, VIII, 71, 3

  30. #60

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    That is already in the guide right at the start of the MTW section. I have now put it in bold to make it clearer, also fixed a typo that turned 'medium' into 'large'. I have a chart in the appendixes listing how many men there are in each type of unit on each unit size setting, so people can use this to convert. I've used medium size units ever since the game was released and it is too late for me to think of the units as having a different man count. Froggy is a creature of habit and limited number capacity



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


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