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Thread: Carthaginian Sacred Band Infantry

  1. #1
    Keeper of Glyphs Member [DnC]'s Avatar
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    Looks nice
    As for historical content, I have no idea

    At TotalWar.com btw.

    Carthaginian Sacred Band Infantry

    The Sacred Band is the elite infantry of any Carthaginian army and can be relied upon to do their duty to the end. They are equipped and organised in the same fashion as the Greek hoplites, with long spears, large shields, breastplates and helmets, and they can use phalanx tactics. This is a style of warmaking that has proved its worth over the centuries.

    They are drawn from the social elite of Carthage, men of noble and wealthy birth and their loyalty is exemplary. The original purpose of the Sacred Band was to act as an officer corps for the Carthaginian army and an elite force, and to put Carthage above any local loyalties. Opponents have learned that these men are formidable in battle, a linchpin for the entire Carthaginian army

    Elite
    Disciplined
    Sapping Abbility
    Can Form Phalanx





  2. #2
    Just an Oldfart Member Basileus's Avatar
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    yeah good looking unit and propably very capable

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Barkhorn1x's Avatar
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    I would echo that statement - looks GREAT.

    Historical?

    Barkhorn.
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  4. #4
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    This is what is historically correct - the Sacred Band infantry was an important part of Anibal's army.

    It is the cavalry, depicted in IGN's Carthage feature, which did not exist, at least not as 'Sacred Band'.



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  5. #5
    Member Member Trax's Avatar
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    Sacred Band went out of use in late 4th century BC almost 100 years before Hannibal.
    So it is strictly speaking unhistorical, although theoretically possible unit, considering the fact that the game begins ca 300 BC.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member Longshanks's Avatar
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    The Sacred Band did not exist past 310 BC, so technically they are out of the game's timeframe. Still it's not a major gripe, at least there is some historical basis for the unit. (unlike Pharonic units that are 1000 yrs off the mark, or Iberian bull warriors)

  7. #7
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Hmmm, didn't know that. Thanks



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  8. #8
    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    Nice historic unit, that has been well done aesthetically.

    As has been noted it is anachronistic for the time, but considering some others, not bad.

    Overall 4


    ****** late edit --- now i'm confused I was mixing this up with the Theban Sacred Band. I'll need to do some digging to see if Carthage's Band would wear a Corinthian helmet.





    BTW, i'm glad they added some polygons to round-out the shield. The stop-sign early versions looked bad.
    --------------
    I will be curious to see how Mac Hypapists are handled, I believe that they should be done as greek hoplites with thracian helmets. That would keep them more mobile and independant to provide the link between Mac Cav and the Pike phalanx.



    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

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  9. #9
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
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    Yes a very nice unit...

    Sounds like another good reason to play as Carthage.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Barkhorn1x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 07 2004,12:04)]BTW, i'm glad they added some polygons to round-out the shield. The stop-sign early versions looked bad.
    The shields now are round indeed. #The latest versions of all the units look about twice as good as the Time Commanders build - even the horses look right now.

    You may not get 100% historical accuracy all the time, but what they lack in historical fidelity they make up for in spectacle.

    Look at this shot of Carthaginian Heavy Infantry for instance;
    http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/49...g_2100764.html


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  11. #11
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
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    oh man that pic is great

    Four and a half months... Can I wait that long??
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  12. #12
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    No complaints from me about historical accuracy. Sure, its slightly out of its time period, but that's quibbling. Good job on this one, CA
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  13. #13
    Member Member Galestrum's Avatar
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    can someone cite a source for the "sacred band" not existing in RTW's timeframe?

    Because I have read a thorough book that does not exclude them from the time period, called Hannibal written by T.A. Dodge and although Dodge is definately pro-hannibal in some of his historical assessments he is not contradicted by the facts of any of the other books regarding this time frame by other authors I have read.

    While no books that I have read mention the "sacred band" being in Hannibal's army I do not presume that they did not exist in Carthage. Hannibal from the time of his childhood until his return before Zama was never in Carthage so it would make sense that he didnt have "sacred band" troops with him to me, but perhaps they remained as the "home guard" if you will. They were afterall composed of the nobility of carthage, whereas Hannibal and his army was really built from the spanish possessions of his family and whatever mercenaries he was able to gather, since the 2nd punic war was an adventure of Hannibal's i could easily see Hannibal not having any with him while at the same time they exist "at home".

    Anyways, point being, I'd just like to know where people got the info that it did not exist after 310, thanks

  14. #14
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Why do i have the feeling this units model will exist in another faction except that it will have a different color and a name?....

    If you look closely it resembles the Greek hoplites ALOTnot only that,but looks almost identical,they could have given them carthaginian style armour and helmet instead of greek.
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  15. #15
    Urwendur Ûrîbêl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Actually, that practice isn't unheard of in 3D modeling.
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  16. #16
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    I really love the unit but I am confused about one thing. #Why is the Sacred Band hoplite wearing a bronze 'muscled' cuirass that has linen shoulder straps typical to a linen cuirass? #The entire cuirass should made of bronze with no shoulder straps (linen or otherwise) folding over the shoulders to the front of the chest. #I must assume CA created only one model of a Greek hoplite's body, one wearing a linen cuirass, and retextured it to fit their needs. #

    One little detail that I love is the fact that the helmet's tranverse crest actually looks like it is made of thousands of strands of white horse hair rather than a large block of some strange material with a factory fresh white paintjob #Take a look at many of the crests of older versions of units in numerous screenshots and you'll see what I mean. #Kudos to CA's art department

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If you look closely it resembles the Greek hoplites ALOTnot only that,but looks almost identical,they could have given them carthaginian style armour and helmet instead of greek.
    The Carthaginian Sacred Band was based on the Greek agema hoplites of that time period. #It was not mere coincidence that Carthage decided to call their elite unit of hoplites the "Sacred Band." #Keep in mind that Sparta's defeat at the hands of Thebes in battle of Leuctra in 371 B.C. sent shockwaves through the ancient world. #The prowess and reputation of the Theban Sacred Band became legendary and there is little doubt that after the fact Theban infantry tactics were considered 'state of the art' in the western world.

    How closely Carthage's Sacred Band mirrored the typical Greek agema hoplite's equipment isn't clear but I think it's safe to say that their arms and armor were virtually the same. #

    As Longshanks already mentioned the Carthaginian Sacred Band was discontinued just before RTW's time period begins. #Given that RTW will be comprised of two or three different eras within the entire time frame Carthage should not be allowed to build Sacred Band units after the 1st or 'early' era.
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  17. #17
    Member Member Galestrum's Avatar
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    I think its a good unit for carthage, regardless of the "facts" as we know them. We do know that it did exist at one point close to RTW and if Carthage had wanted to reconstitute it, they certainly could have and since we the player take on the role of Carthage, it should be up to us. This isnt a fantasy unit or some unit 1200 years too early/late. Certainly this unit "could have" been made had the leadership of carthage so deemed it. It should however require a high tech/build requirement and should be low in numbers, this would reflect the time to "reinvigorate" the carthage nobility and to reflect Carthages lack of desire to take the field themselves. Either way I look forward to fighting them or leading them in RTW

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member Longshanks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]can someone cite a source for the "sacred band" not existing in RTW's timeframe?
    By the 3rd century BC, citizens were exempt from military service (to manage Punic trading interests and industries). Given the limited Carthaginian population (even though the city probably did eventually have a population in the low 100,000s), the decision seems to have made sense. If they had fought the Romans with their own population, they probably would have succumbed earlier than they did, and their mercenary military came close to defeating the Romans.



    We read much of the Sacred Legion in the Sicilian wars. It was composed of young nobles, who wore dazzling white shields and breast-plates which were works of art; who even in the camp never drank except from goblets of silver and of gold. But this corps had apparently become extinct, and the Carthaginians only officered their troops, who they looked upon as ammunition, and to whom their orders were delivered through interpreters.


    http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/army-carthage.htm

  19. #19
    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
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    I did a little checking on the helmets.

    I found what I expected, the Carthaginian Sacred band, as best as I could find would be wearing Late Greek/Helenistic helmets.

    This means it probably should be wearing either an Attic helmet or, even more likely, one of the hundreds of Thracian/Phrygian variants -- similar to what was worn by Alexander's troops.

    This is probably also the case for even the Theban Sacred Band, although I could see them potentially wearing the Corthinthian helm.
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

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  20. #20
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    So, another incorrection...

  21. #21
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    My God man. The end of this unit as a main battlefield unit ended half a century before the start of RTW - so? That is such a small innacuracy that it doesn't matter, if the unit itself is alright.

    I mean, if CA gave Parthia more than just the region to the direct southeast of the Caspian sea coast, I wouldn't be complaining. Unless that meant that they gave Parthia all of imperial Parthia (under Mithridates I).



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  22. #22
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 11 2004,08:40)]So, another incorrection...
    Now you are just being too much.

    Yes, the helmet is not that great, but it seems that all hoplite-like units have it, so we are most likely talking about a situation where they, to lower the workload, have chosen it for them. Not because it they don't know it is outside the timeframe (if you notice the old screenshots the hoplites are wearing the even older Boiotian helmet). And honestly the corinthian helmet looks good, but that is the only reason why I'm accepting it.

    The armour is odd. A bronze cuirass with shoulderstraps? Either linnen with them or bronze without. I guess this has something to do with the same reason as with the helmets.

    And outside the timeframe by 10 years. Yeah, big deal. We will be the new rulers of Carthage (or the AI), now it will be our right to determine if we want to call it up for duty again. A choice we should have, the suffetes had the same choice and opted not to.
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