XVI -XVII mod

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,15:59)]What year does the second era begin? Livonia shouldn´t be Russian anyhow.

Code Sample SetStartDate:: 1480
SetGameEndDate:: 1700
SetPeriod:: EARLY
SetEarlyPeriodStartDate:: 1480
SetHighPeriodStartDate:: 1572
SetLatePeriodStartDate:: 1648
[/QUOTE]

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Just thought that Portugal should be divided in at least 2-3 provs.The reason is that it was a powerful country, and needs some more cash to backup that, so if it only receives money from one prov that will leave it rather poor.(Actually Portugal was richer than Spain)

BTW, the currency of the mod should be changed to doblon instead of florin.Just for some more accuracy.

Regards.

S.Master

[Trax]

Isn´t it possible to just make the province Portugal richer?

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,16:45)]Isn´t it possible to just make the province Portugal richer?

Yeah, I think it's a good idea, but it should be at least four digit number. Also I think the Portugese should start campaign with some few ships and shipbuilding facilities, and be a kind of trader-naval expansionist faction with rich homeland and strong army.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Well, actually they didnt have a strong army, but a really outstanding navy, but to have portugal with more income than Spain with just one prov, even fully upgraded is still too much I think.

[Earl of Sandwich]

nice work so far, with the screen shots and all. If you'd like some help, I can do all the names that are needed (Portuguese, Swedish, Dutch, Crimean, Ukrainian, etc.)

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,15:59)]What year does the second era begin? Livonia shouldn´t be Russian anyhow.
Also I see that Cyprus belongs to the Ottomans already, Venetians lost it 1571, I think.

It starts in 1572. At that time most of Livonia was occupied
by Russian army, I believe.
And Cyprus was captured in 1571-72.

Regards Hetman

[Hetman]

DATKA

I think it is possible to add Georgia as a playable faction in all periods.
Your units proposals are quite good, have to ask You several questions.

1.
Georgian riflemen - what kind of firearm were they using, arquebus or a musket ( and how fast were they shooting).

2. Cavalry.
Did they use shields or armour, armoured steeds maybe ?

3.
Which ones were disciplined or elite ?

4.
Could You send me some info useful for units' descriptions, building requirements and so on.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 23 2004,16:36)]Just thought that Portugal should be divided in at least 2-3 provs.

S.Master

This means map changes. I'm going to use WesW's new map ( Portugal is divided into two provinces), as soon as possible.
But in future our own XVI mod map will be necessary - should be different to the Med Mod's map.

For now I'm going to make Portugal much richer, but in one province only, unfortunatelly.

Regards Cegorach

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 23 2004,15:11)]When exactly does the Age of exploration period start? Because Finland was under Swedish rules already in the 13th century, or most of it anyway.

I used Euroatlas for details. Of course You know Finland's history better so the province will be granted to Sweden, I think.

Hetman

[Hetman]

About flags.

For now I used some from BKB's mod ( Hospitallier Knights, Portugal) and from the NTW ( Spain - white with red, burgundian cross).

EC

Your Swedish flag for Fury of the... mod is much better for the mod.

BTW If You can please send me the info_pics You've made + the all You think is useful.

Cegorach@wp.pl

Hetman

[SwordsMaster]

I found some more useful stuff at this page

another page about Landsknechts with lots of imageshere


another page on history just for additional info here



Another pagewith info about the portugese army from 1640 to 1707 (in portuguese)

for anyone that understands french here you have another page about european armies 1550-1650
there might be some images, I couldnt dig in in detail.Theres some good info about how musketeers and arquebusiers acually fired.

About Portugal, I think the ideal would be 3 provs, but 2 is still better than 1.


Reagards.
SM.

[octavian]

wow wow
those screens look very nice

[SwordsMaster]

In the first period, Spain didnt even exist yet.It was Castile, Aragon and Navarre, but not Spain til 1490s officially (actually until queen Isabel died in 1504).

So that isnt accurate.

second thought:

The units for that first period should be more like the late MTW than the ones I proposed for Spain. (Rodeleros and Landsknechts could be included), but all the rest shouldnt be available til 1520 approx.

[Hetman]

Yesterday I visited my local library and I must confess I was really suprised what kind of sources I was able to get ( I was lucky).
I borrowed three books ( well four, but one is useful only for NTW forum) concerning Zaporozhian Cossacks ( in detail), Lisowczyk mercenaries ( again in detail) and finally a real precious - an extensive source about Tatars in Polish armies ( From Lithuanian units in the XIVth century to September 1939).

The first results are two more cavalry units useful for eastern factions as regional units.

First.

Czeremis Cavalry - all periods

for Poland, Ottomans ( Turkey), Cossacks, Russia and Georgia ( not for Crimean Tatars);

in Volhynia, Kiev and Volga-Bulgaria;

fast ( 12/24/26), very strong charge ( 6), attack 3, bonus attacking cavalry +1, defense 2, armour ( chainmail, shield included) 3, good morale 4, disciplined;

armed with lance, sabre, bow and shield, wearing chainmail armour;

Description ( not ready for the game yet)
Czeremis were muslim nomads who lived in eastern steppes
( Volga-Bulgaria). Their hated enemy were Kazan Horde Tatars.
Because of them Czeremis ( Cheremis) had to migrate to Poland-Lithuania. They were soon famous as very good horsemen and ruthless enemies of Crimean Tatars.

Second.

Czerkies ( Cherkesses) - tribesmen from nothern Caucasus ( Georgia and
Khazar in the MTW) available in all periods.

for Poland, Russia, Cossacks and Georgia;

in Kiev, Lithuania, Khazar and Georgia;

very fast ( as Tatars) light cavalry, armed with sabre and spear, wearing chinmail armour ( probably they were using bows, but I'm not sure about it).
Stats in the future.

Info - they created first Petryhorcy cavalry units in Polish-Lithuanian armies ( Russian term is Pertryhorcy)and formed several light cavalry units in Polish armies.


Remember we can add about 100 units to the current unit list ( page 7 of this thread) and the ones above seem to be quite useful for several factions.

BTW
Zaporozhian Cossacks relied on infantry much more than on cavalry.
It was the infantry which was 'the backbone' of the army. Only during the rebellion in 1648 first good quality cavalry units were formed.
Before that the Cossacks were very good infantry soldiers and pirates
(Black Sea, ask Ottomans), but rather poor horsemen ( still better than many horsemen in Western Europe).

regards Hetman/Cegorach

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 24 2004,11:41)]In the first period, Spain didnt even exist yet.It was Castile, Aragon and Navarre, but not Spain til 1490s officially (actually until queen Isabel died in 1504).

So that isnt accurate.

second thought:

The units for that first period should be more like the late MTW than the ones I proposed for Spain. (Rodeleros and Landsknechts could be included), but all the rest shouldnt be available til 1520 approx.

Exactly like protestant religion and fully unified Polish-Lithuanian state for example, but it's impossible to be so accurate.

Second thing arquebusiers and other 'modern' units will be available after several structures will be build i.e. not from the beginning.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, new stuff here.

Quote[/b] ]During the XV century, Spanish Catholic armies (from Castilla and From
Aragon) were medieval armies. They were separated in different branch:
The king household made of noblemen paid directly by the king and it was
composed of Heavy Lance (Men at Arms) and Light Lance called in Spanish
lanza jinete. Their numbers fluctuated, following the political situation in
Spain, but during the war of Granada in late XV century, Fernando de Aragon
had some 800 - 900 horsemen. The king also uses to give some domain or
castle to noblemen in exchange of a number of soldiers a classical feudal
system.
High noblemen would have their proper household and would raise foots
soldiers as well.
Because most of the wars in Spain during the XV century were against the
Muslin states of the peninsula, on the catholic side you would find a lot of
religious orders providing knights and foots soldiers for a campaign. At
last cities council were obliged to raise soldiers for the king at their own
expense. Most of these troops were raised for a campaign and would be
disbanded at the end of the year.

Then this about cavalry uniforms:

Quote[/b] ]In Spanish service, cavalry did not have organic uniform even if yelloish
colour were used, normally they used a red slash or red plume to distinguish
themselves from the others.

This one about Royal guards:

Quote[/b] ]Well in time of Carlos V (Charles V) the royal guard had 3 companies of horses: the
cien Continuos, a company of Men at Arms armed with a heavy lance, sword and
a complete armour, the Estradiotes, a company of light cavalry armed with a
light lance and sword and a company of Archeros de Borgoña, armed with
lance, sword and a light armour. The foot companies of guardia du corps were
armed with halberd, sword and harquebus. Later the armament follow the
trend of the fashion with the introduction of pistols and musket, but the
halberd was always maintained in the foot companies

Hope it is useful.

PS.@Hetman: Ok, agreed about the Spanish kingdoms...

[SwordsMaster]

BTW, Hetman, I just read that thread in the Alchemist Lab about the Hedges MTWEditor v2. I thought You might find it useful.
try this link

Regards.

[Datka]

Hetman

Quote[/b] ]I think it is possible to add Georgia as a playable faction in all periods.
Your units proposals are quite good, have to ask You several questions.

Thanks

Quote[/b] ]Georgian riflemen - what kind of firearm were they using, arquebus or a musket ( and how fast were they shooting).

Well rifles appeared in Georgia very late. It was because of absolute isolation from Europe, caused by the Ottomans. Thats why I say theme should be no riflemen in Early. Only in the XVI century they appeared in Georgia. Few were made here by separate craftsmen, and some were imported from Europe (through the Crimea). By the end of XVI century only about 4-5% of Geogian warriors were armed with rifles. In XVII century their number rose a bit, but still they were few. I cant tell you exactly wether these were arquebuses or muskets. I guess they were the same that were in Europe in the corresponding periods.

Quote[/b] ]2. Cavalry.
Did they use shields or armour, armoured steeds maybe ?

Yes they should have shields and armour, not very heavy though.
Horses were not armoured.

Quote[/b] ]3.
Which ones were disciplined or elite ?

Elite:
Elite Mkhedrebi
Swordsmen Mkhedrebi
Spearmen Mkhedrebi
Aragvian Warriors

Disciplined:
Elite Mkhedrebi

Quote[/b] ]4.
Could You send me some info useful for units' descriptions, building requirements and so on.

Well one will hardly find any such info in Internet, in English especially . I use the books. Georgian ones. So I can't send you a direct info, I'll have to work on it myself :). I can write the descriptions.
About building requirements - I guess new buildings will be in this Mod. So I must know their system (tree) to define the requirements.

And tell me all the other info u need. I guess I will be able to provide u with most of what is required for the adding of a faction. The only problem are the pictures. I cant find them, I hope u can do without them...

[Eastside Character]

Uptade - flags


Regards,
EC

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 26 2004,18:01)]Uptade - flags


Regards,
EC

Very good, very good indeed EC.
BTW - I've sent Your screens to POlish Total War forum. I expect some help from the local members.

Hetman

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 27 2004,04:15)]BTW - I've sent Your screens to POlish Total War forum. I expect some help from the local members.

Hetman

Yes, I've noticed that - I track links to my pages.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

EC, cant get to see the flags.It says something about The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer .

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 27 2004,07:05)]EC, cant get to see the flags.It says something about The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer .

Just try again later. It's something with that geocities server the site's on, but it should be only a temporary situation - Now I checked and it's OK.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Just got to see them, then clicked again and was back to the error screen...

Anyway they look great

If the genoese is the red croos, the english is gonna be the lion?

[Hetman]

Please post translated names of the units from page nr. 7
i.e. in Russian, Swedish and so on ( not Polish, not necessary).

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

[Ironside]

Well since Hetman asked I will try to do my best for units.

First some all around info.

Sweden had two military reforms during this time, one at around 1530-1540 when the inf was formed in fänikor (ä = ae i think) and the cav in (rytteri)fanor.
Later, around 1620-1630, Sweden had a reform that changed the fänikors and fanor into regimenten. These regimenten was often taken from local regions and were named therafter.

Muskets didn't become standard equipment until late 1500 so less muskets in early.

Sweden was weak until around 1620-1630 and afterwards they were very strong, so it should be showed in troop types. This is especially noticed in the cav. The cav continues to be slower than the polish cav for example, but more stamina (but that cant get implemented)

Ok to some units (had problem finding something for early)

Swedish militia (early)

Unlike the rest of the continent did the Swedish peasants succeding in defending thier privilegies and maintained a relativly strong position. One of the main reasons for this were their military strength. Stronger then their continental counterpart these men can even defeat more professional armies under a good general. Armed with axes, not even the heaviest troops is safe.

Possibly multiple units of Swedish militia

Dalkarlar (early)

The men from Dalarnarna was famous for thier combat-abilities and helped more than one king in times of need. They are the elite in peasant uprisings, but their lack of training and equipment is hampering them.
Probably axes for these.

Svennar (early)

Because only the king could give people the rank of riddare (knights) there was a lack of knights during the Danish wars, when Sweden officially lacked a king. Those who had proven themself worthy of knighthood was then called Svennar. This is the core in any Swedish army and are well-trained and well-equiped.
Unknown weapon, possibly cav too.

Cav types

Dragoons (hard to implement right in this game, should be light cav perhaps? It was that later)
Lancers
Curasiers
(One- two pistols then shook, can the AI handle this? = 2 ammo extremly short reload time then charging without ammo).

Regiments
Falling order of inportance (except adelsfanan, special kind of unit)
* = existed before as a fana (date when it first was formed)
Adelsfanan (1571) (Only nobles here)
Upplands ryttare (1626)* 1667 renamed to Livregementet till häst. Best cav.
Västgöta kavalleriregimente (1628)*
Åbo och Björneborgs läns kavalleriregemente (1632)* Finnish cav 1721 renamed to Livdragonregementet if prefered as a name.
Småland ryttare (1628)*
Nylands och Tavastehus läns kavalleriregemente (1632) Finnish cav
Östgöta kavalleriregemente (1636)*
Viborgs läns kavalleriregemente (1632)
Skånska kavalleriregementet (1658)

inf.

Pikes 54 and musket 72 was the standard size.
Possibly a sniper unit, need to check out some info

Drabanterna (early, high) Elite unit (best of the best), the kings bodyguard. Replaced in late with
Kungliga Maj:ts garde och livregemente.

Regiments
Falling order of importance
* = existed as a fänika before
Only the top 7 of 20.
Upplands regimente (1626)*
Skaraborgs regimente (1624)*
Åboläns infanteriregemente (unable to find date but around 1620-1630) *Existed before as Finska storregimentet Finnish
Södermanlands regemente (1627)*
Kronobergs regemente (1623)*
Björneborgs regemente (same as Åboläns)
Dalregimentet (1624)*
Most units was Indelta (called that from 1694) = conscripted.


The problem is that most units used combined arms so it's hard to name something, without calling it Swedish muskets or something boring like that.

[SwordsMaster]

I'm preparing descriptions for spanish units, I'll post them as soon as Im done.

Regards.

[SwordsMaster]

Desc for the Spanish heavy pikes (corseletes):

Quote[/b] ]Those men were the most feared soldiers of Europe for a reason. Coming from the arid fields of Spain and the lesser nobility, they fight for pride, money and arrogance. They were cruel, arrogant and undisciplined, but in a battlefield they were one of the most perfect battle machines of their time. That, added to their superb discipline, made them fearsome soldiers at the service of the catholic king. Armed with pikes and swords and heavily armoured, those men were able to hold most of the enemies they faced, and aided by the musketeers were the elite backbone of all Spanish armies.

If its too long just give me a shout and i will remove someting.


Regards.

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 31 2004,17:52)]Desc for the Spanish heavy pikes (corseletes):

Quote[/b] ]Those men were the most feared soldiers of Europe for a reason. Coming from the arid fields of Spain and the lesser nobility, they fight for pride, money and arrogance. They were cruel, arrogant and undisciplined, but in a battlefield they were one of the most perfect battle machines of their time. That, added to their superb discipline, made them fearsome soldiers at the service of the catholic king. Armed with pikes and swords and heavily armoured, those men were able to hold most of the enemies they faced, and aided by the musketeers were the elite backbone of all Spanish armies.

If its too long just give me a shout and i will remove someting.


Regards.

Swordmaster Your help is really invaluable, thanks


But for future descriptions please use Present Tense, it is better I think.

This is the description for Spanish Corselets - what do You think about this version ?
These men are the most feared soldiers of Europe for a reason. Coming from the arid fields of Spain they fight for pride, money and arrogance. They are cruel and undisciplined, but not in a battlefield where they are the perfect battle machines of this time. Armed with pikes and swords and heavily armoured, these men are able to hold most of the enemies they face.

Regards Hetman