which came first?

[ichi]

Since none of us were there, it may be an unresolvable issue.

What do you think?

I say the egg, for reasons that I will post at a later date.

ichi

ps this is a chance to take sides in a non-confrontational - non-antagonist - non-flaming way. Can we have a good discussion and show the mods that we have found the spirirt of the frontroom (which BTW should be called the Parlor, IMHO)

[Malcolm Big Head]

I believe that a cartoon exists that deals with this. The egg and chicken are in bed, one is smoking a cig and the other looks very unhappy. I just can't remember which one was happy.

The egg.

[octavian]

wow, that vote is all nice and even

[JAG]

Has to be the egg for me.

[bighairyman]

i say chicken

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is a real tuff one. Lets see most think that birds came from dinosaurs. So the chicken would have started off as a dinosaur. The question then becomes which came first the dinosaur or the egg.

[spmetla]

I'm assuming that the creature before the Chicken laided an egg and withing the egg started the mutations that led to the chicken.

[Idaho]

Spmetla is correct. A proto-chicken laid a chicken egg.

[Finn]

but was it a chicken egg, or was it a proto-chicken egg with a chicken inside it? ;)

[Malcolm Big Head]

Quote[/b] (Idaho @ May 12 2004,03:39)]Spmetla is correct. A proto-chicken laid a chicken egg.

Wouldn't the proto-chicken need to lay two eggs? Either way it appears all chickens are inbred and after raising them as a child I agree.

EGG

[Devastatin Dave]

Read Genesis.
The Chicken.

[Papewaio]

The egg came first and the chicken would have been sexually compatible with the proto-chicken. Over many generations the chickens (mutated proto-chick's) would have found favour in the environment so the ratio of chicken to proto-chicken would have increased. Although every now and then a throwback feature would be observed.


So after a long time the population would have changed from proto-chicken to chicken if the environment was fairly static.

If a major upset in the environment occured then the change (the change in ration) could have happened far more quickly. Say a disease comes through that kills only proto-chickens. The chickens survive so the frequency is now 100% chickens and 0% proto-chickens.

Essentially the speed of evolution is the speed of change of the environment. Although like anything to fast and it kills most things. A mass extinction event is normally followed by a time of massive diversity until things normalise and only a few successful variants remain (same happens on the stockmarket).

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Read my Signature.
-Capo

[Lord Ovaat]

Wow, PAPEWEIO, that was far more chicken infor than we were expecting.

Personally, I think it a moot point. Logic demands that the first action would, of necessity, be the chicken crossing the road.

[Hosakawa Tito]

So, in actuality, the Proto-chicken came first. Sounds logical to me.

[son of spam]

The proto-chicken laid the first chicken egg. That's how evolution works. And no, one egg is enough, as long as the chicken is sexually compatible with other protochickens. Eventually, enough protochicken offspring will get teh mutation so that they all turn into things that are delicious when baked, fried, or broiled, and are only 10% fatty

[ElmarkOFear]

Actually Colonel Sanders has the answer, but he is not telling

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Devastatin Dave @ May 12 2004,05:52)]Read Genesis.
The Chicken.

'nuff said.

I have always successfully proved in any discussion that a chicken (proto or not) was first. My most persistent opponent gave up on me after some four and a half hours, and I wasn't even breaking a sweat at the point.

The chicken was first. Not the egg. After all, someone had to lay that egg.

But where did that chicken came from? From an egg Ergo, the egg was first

My reply:

Someone had to lay that egg too…

Guess how long I can keep up with this?

PS/Off topic/ Anyone ever heard the song The Egg and I from Cowboy Bebop soundtrack? I love it

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (Devastatin Dave @ May 12 2004,11:52)]Read Genesis.
The Chicken.

Amen brother Dave

[hrvojej]

The duck.

[Finn]

it depends what you define an egg to be, if an egg is simply a shell with a creature inside and has nothing to do with a chicken then eggs came first, as there were egg laying creatures before chickens..

if you want to be specific enough to say a chicken egg then how do you define a chicken egg?

if a chicken egg is an egg that was laid by a chicken, then the chicken came first, by definition it had to be, as the egg had to be laid by a chicken

however if your definition of a chicken egg is an egg that CONTAINS a chicken and it doesnt matter what laid it. Then, the egg came first, the chicken had to come from the egg, and what laid it was almost a chicken but not quite a chicken (a proto chicken)

to answer the question the terms need to be defined..

[ichi]

Papewaio and Son of Spam are right, it is the egg.

A creature (we shall call it a proto-chicken) that was not a chicken, but very similar to a chicken, had sex with another chicken-precursor bird, usually referred to as a proto-chicken. The egg that was fertilized as a result of this union had a slightly different genetic make-up than its parents, what we refer to as a mutation. This egg hatched and became a chicken.

Multi-cellular organisms rarely have substantive changes in their genetics after birth that can be passed on. Most mutations occur in the fertilization/embryonic stage. The mutation has to happen early enough to affect the animal and its eggs/sperm.

The proto-chicken was not a chicken. It had characterisitcs that distinguished it from a chicken. But a proto-chicken laid an egg that became what we would define as a chicken - it was the first bird to have all of the chicken characteristics. When it laid eggs more chickens (and perhaps a few retro-proto-chickens) were hatched.

So, a chicken egg can come from a non-chicken. Chickens can only come from chicken eggs. Therefore the egg came first.

hrvojej is kinda correct, in that ducks are generally considered to be an older branch of birds than gallinaceous birds (aka chickens), but since the question was chicken or egg, his answer doesn't qualify. Besides, he didn't specify which duck.

Voigtkampf's

Quote[/b] ]Someone had to lay that egg too…

has been answered.

Hosakawa Tito is also correct, in that proto-chickens preceded chickens.

Lord Ovaat is not correct, however. The egg came before the chicken who then crossed the road. That's when Elmo and Colonel Sanders got invovled.

I've read Genesis and it makes no mention of chickens.

What makes me happiest is that we have almost gone two days and no one is flaming Congrats all

ichi

[Voigtkampf]

Oh, dear… How could a proto-chicken lay a chicken egg? It had to, by any definition, lay a proto-egg.

Ergo, the chicken was there before the egg. As well as the proto-chicken was there before the proto-egg.

So, it's (proto)chicken all the way. This reasoning, combined with Genesis (read again ichi, and you'll find it for sure, but be more thorough this time) makes my case persuasive and solid beyond any doubt.

Thanks, voigt

EDIT Well, what do you know, a thousandth post I knew all a long that it would be a mature one and that it will change the world as we know it

[Papewaio]

You want flaming I will give you flaming.

Flaming chargrilled chicken with a bit of spicey sauce and a side of chips

[Seven.the.Hun]

oh wow, indeed, well then, when a new species emerges, there HAS to be a 1st member, so then is this 1st member born from its closest evolution relative, or does it simply...rise out of the rocks and dust? hmm...
who knows, but if i find out that there is one of those stork things who flies around and drops them down to make it so...i'm gonna really be creeped out.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

frogbeastegg came first...

Wait, nope, that's another poll.

OK, both the chicken and the eggs were together at the same time, the chicken crossed the road, got rolled over in the first roadkill, so we just got an egg left, and that's how the egg won. Just because he could not cross the road.

It's the egg.

Louis,

PS; sometimes, evolution is about NOT being able to cross the road... A most interesting activity for natural selection

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ May 14 2004,00:20)]Oh, dear… How could a proto-chicken lay a chicken egg? It had to, by any definition, lay a proto-egg.

Ergo, the chicken was there before the egg. As well as the proto-chicken was there before the proto-egg.

So, it's (proto)chicken all the way. This reasoning, combined with Genesis (read again ichi, and you'll find it for sure, but be more thorough this time) makes my case persuasive and solid beyond any doubt.

Thanks, voigt

EDIT Well, what do you know, a thousandth post I knew all a long that it would be a mature one and that it will change the world as we know it

As I stated in my last post, a proto-chicken can lay a chicken egg. When a proto-chicken egg and sperm combined there was an alteration in the genetic material or configuration, this resulted in what we call a chicken.

A proto-chicken is not a chicken, just as a cactus is not a rose. But the cactus family is dervied from the rose family. We could have the same discussion about which came first, the cactus or the seed? The answer, the seed.

What we call a proto-chicken was some form of gallinaceous bird that existed prior to chickens and had many characters similar to those of chickens, but if a chicken expert could examine one of these proto-chickens he would say that it was similiar to, but not a chicken.

All things are classified based on their inherent characterisitcs, and there was a 'first' chicken. this was the first bird that fit the classification of being a chicken. No previous bird had the characteristics of a chicken. This 'first' chicken came from an egg. That egg was laid by a proto-chicken.

Genesis doesn't mention chickens by name. It does mention fowl. I certainly don't consider middle eastern oral history from 2-3 thousand years before the discovery of genetics, evolution, and archaeology to be a definitive source of information. Maybe we should take the Genesis discussion to the Tavern.

ichi