Horse Archers

[Iashiii]

Firstly, a belated hello to everyone

Now, on to my real problem. Horse archers (inc. jinettes). IMHO, they are probably the most annoying unit in the game. I really can't find a sensible place in any of my christian armies, as they just don't match up stats wise to normal archers, and are little more than glorified light cav. They lack punch, and its far easier (and possibly cheaper) to build plain hobilars. In my
(admittedly limited) experience, they have never yet decisively won a battle, just prolonged they agony of the losers, and annoyed the hell outta me.

One case in point was my campaign as almos on hard level. After a 20 year war with the Spanish, I finally managed to draw them into battle. I convincingly beat them main army to main army, yet whilst most of their army routed, their numerous jinettes rallied, and caused havoc with my pursuing army, whilst I didn't have enough light cav, so couldn't catch and beat them. As it was a broken battle, they were all over the battlefield, and twice caught me by surprise, killing off both my remaining heirs, leading to my inevitable demise (as a faction). Eventually, I won, thanks to reinforcements & persistence, a victory which was inevitable after the main battle. So, my point is, why bother with them at all? I'll agree that they obviously do have their moments (when routing/pursuing), but surely it would be more useful to have, say another unit of archers/ men-at-arms in your army, who could make a decisive impact, unlike the HA. Anyway, it may just be that I'm using them ineffectually, so any advice would be appreciated

Also, a totally unrelated question - what timezone is the board on? Its really confusing me Thanx in advance

[Doug-Thompson]

Ah, if you only knew what you were getting into.

There's a thread on this in the main hall that's 148 replies long.

The short version is: Look what they did to you. You won the battle, but at the cost of having your faction destroyed.

Horse archers are one of the most difficult of all units to use well, but if they are used well they cause massive disruption and confusion, especially to the poor old AI.

The secret is to deploy as many as you can micromanage effectively far out in front of your main army and cause as much disruption, morale loss, mayhem, casualties and exhaustion as you can before the main battle starts. I've fought many battles where the enemy gave up and the main armies never made contact.

Relatively few HA are good for melee, too.

[Doug-Thompson]

So, the question is: How do you use them well?

First off, get them some decent morale upgrades. Armor wouldn't hurt either. Vanilla horse archers have very poor morale, which is quite a disadvantage in a unit that has to go fight alone, cut off from the rest of the army. They could panic or freeze.

Second, realize that a HA who gets in a fight with foot archers is a dead HA. There are significant exceptions, but that's a good rule of thumb starting out.

Opinions about micromanagement of HA vary. Many good players think you should turn them off of skirmish and micromanage them 100 percent.

After many experiments, I see their point but doubt that most players have that level of skill and willingness to practice.

I recommend leaving them on skirmish (unless they are jinettes -- more about that someday) but drawing them out in a very long, thin line only two ranks deep. Most players would disagree with that, but I have my reasons.

The long, thin formation leaves the ends of their line dangling. This is particularly dangerous because the skirmish command only applies to the unit you are firing at. If you are firing at a unit of infantry, for example, and another unit of infantry marches up, it will massacre your HA, which will not flee.

The best method to avoid that, in my opinion, is to click a spot to move the HA and immediately hit W for wedge formation, which reels in the line behind the leader quite nicely. (Edited P.S.: Obviously, what i should have said is double-click. Running is better than walking when you're trying to get away from a melee unit. )

Finally, always strive to get one unit of HA behind your target, or to the flank at least. That takes away the protection of the shield.

[katank]

I love jinettes.

I agree 100% with doug on HA use.

I like using 2 ranks and wedge for moving.

I personally use 1 rank for heavy cav, 1 1/2 ranks for swords etc. and maneuver in wedge.

some may say that I'm insane for such long formations but more guys get into the scrap.

wedge is better for maneuvering anyhow due to faster turning and the impact of a flank or rear wedge charge shouldn't be underestimated.

then after the charge hits home, unfurl by switching to close and the ensuing melee is beautiful.

I like microing all HAs esp. the jinettes.

you actually pointed out their greatest strength. armor piercing.

their jav range is amazingly short but in early, they are one of the best jedi cav killers.

BG cav has too much armor to kill readily with vanilla archers which are your only choice in early and their jedi status means melee will have your losing.

jinettes and mtd x-bows are only AP missile in early and both are mounted and fastest at 24/26 compared to 20/22 for knights so they can take out the kngihts without retaliation provided you use them properly.

jinettes are 250 vs. 300 for mtd. x-bows and are thus cheaper and also are more capable light cav that are capable of taking out hobilars in melee easily.

they are also faster than hobbies.

you shoudl always use HAs in squads of 2 or 3 and use one to shoot at a unit and run away while using the others to shoot on the sling by whereupon the AI unit usually changes targets and you can switch the roles.

tire them out and finally charge the decimated unit from all sides using your HAs and you should win with the unit instantly routing.

no matter how strong they are, varangians, katanks, royal kngihts, they all go down in flames when reduced to single digits and surrounded.

your speedy jinettes will also ensure that none gets away.

due to armor piercing and fast speeds, consider them battlefield assasins who can kill royals (usually generals) with relative ease and can turn the battle into a Phyrric one for the enemy if not an outright win for you.

[Goofball]

Quote[/b] ]I like using 2 ranks and wedge for moving.

I personally use 1 rank for heavy cav, 1 1/2 ranks for swords etc. and maneuver in wedge.

Stupid question: How do you switch into 1 Rank or 1.5 Rank formations? The only formations listed when I play are close, open, and wedge.

[Iashiii]

Well, thanks for all the help You've certainly made me realise how useful HA's can be. Now, time to practise...

Just one question - is it worth, say, putting a unit of HA ahead of archers, or swordsmen (when all are at the same tech level)? I suppose, my question really is - how many units of HA's should I have in my army at one, so not to unbalance it?

[katank]

@ goofball, while in close, drag them units out on the battle map and you can get 1 rank and change etc.

switch to loose if taking missile fire and switch to wedge while maneuvering, particularly turning.

@iashiii, HAs aren't meant to engage at all, so there isn't much unbalance at all.

I would say, in the starting wave to bring as many HAs as you can possibly micro except if you see the opposition has pure light cav etc.

ride around to your heart's content and shoot them to bits and tire them out.

then drag them to your end of the map all decimated and worn out, withdraw the HAs and bring on fresh swordsmen/cav to utterly destroy them.

it's possible to use 16 HAs for attrition although frequent pause is required unless you are godly with HAs like Sinan.

watch a few of his replays and you shall appreciate the might power of the Turkish HA hordes.

Byz, Russians, Hungarians are also capable of fielding those hell horse fast although almos and eggy have HAs too later.

for best HA, I would likely go with Szeklys as they are fastest speed 24/26 and still very nice melee stats and morale of 4 and elite isn't bad at all.

the impetuous part is the only problem although they can actually do reasonably in melee.

[ichi]

Welcome to the Org Iashiii

Cav archers are one of the main reasons that I enjoy this game. (click on my avatar

[jadast]

A favorite tactic of mine when defending is to swing my HA units around the flanks and fire into the opposing general unit. This has a couple of benefits. If lucky enough I get a dead enemy general before battle is joined. Secondly the AI often turns its missle units to fire on my HAs. This usually means a spear unit to screen. This leaves my archers free to target opposing elite units. Often I end up with a numerical advantage at the main line of battle. It takes practice and a willingness to sacrifice a couple of horse units for the greater good.

[bighairyman]

Quote[/b] ](admittedly limited) experience, they have never yet decisively won a battle, just prolonged they agony of the losers, and annoyed the hell outta me.

That's the point, it pisses you off,a nd general who are pissed off, often don't think. that's what taunts are for.
and if you have lower troops(spearmen, ex), they could actually win, scatted horse archers and tired your infantry and causes casualties, the low moral troops could actually be routed without h2h combat

[katank]

alternate to ichi's anti HA tactic but a close cousin to it is to use 2-3 light cav to walk around the HAs.

LC LC LC
HA HA HA HA HA HA

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

like this where S is your spear wall or battle line and LC is your light cav and HA opposition HAs.

just charge your LCs towards the center of your own lines and even if those HAs can actually beat your cav in melee, they will skirmish away right into your spear wall and your flanks can wrap around the HAs and annihilate them entirely.

it's fun to destroy about 4-5 complete units of HAs this way when you have run out of archers.

[Ghostmonkey]

Quote[/b] (jadast @ June 09 2004,20:07)]A favorite tactic of mine when defending is to swing my HA units around the flanks and fire into the opposing general unit. This has a couple of benefits. If lucky enough I get a dead enemy general before battle is joined. Secondly the AI often turns its missle units to fire on my HAs. This usually means a spear unit to screen. This leaves my archers free to target opposing elite units. Often I end up with a numerical advantage at the main line of battle. It takes practice and a willingness to sacrifice a couple of horse units for the greater good.

I especially like it when the general decides to chase your horse archers for the entire battle while his men get crushed by your main force.

[octavian]

i often like to use HA as a flanking unit, like so:
edit: units wouldn't line up, i'll see if i can take a screenie sometime.
ive used this formation (good mainly for one on one or two on two) in MP battles with a very good success rate. i never use vanilla HA though.

ps, depending on which flank im on i use either this or its mirror image.

pps i like this formation more because my HA have a pace to retreat to as opposed to having to fall right back onto my main inf line. of course, i sometimes put my HA directly in front, then fall back trough my line and come around the enemy flanks. also, i find my enemies often underestimate the power of the Szekely .

[Doug-Thompson]

One thing to remember is that HA will get cornered someday if you just ignore them. They'll run out of map.

So even if you use the skirmish setting, you have to keep an eye on them. That's why they should be used to harass the enemy before the main battle starts. You can afford to pay attention to them.

Also remember that a unit chasing your HA around is a unit that isn't in the real battle. It's a mission kill when your HA unit has distracted some powerful unit into a goose chase while you won the rest of the battle elsewhere.

This works really well on impetuous units. HA can often goad knights, for instance, into an ill-advised chase. The knights will give up eventually, but then they are exhausted and out of position.

If your HA have the misfortune to be taken under fire by enemy archers who are protected by a melee unit, leave quickly. If you can't get out of range immediately, hit open formation while leaving. Also, run uphill if a hill is nearby. The elevation penalizes enemy archers. You can also flee into woods, if available.

If the archers aren't protected by another melee unit, if they are isolated, then hold down the ALT button and click on them for an immediate melee attack. Some archers -- longbows, futtawas, trebizonds and several others -- have melee that's too good to allow that. However, plain old vanilla archers or crossbowmen will get wiped out, even by little vanilla HA. Their routers won't get away, either.

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (Iashiii @ June 09 2004,17:21)]Also, a totally unrelated question - what timezone is the board on? Its really confusing me Thanx in advance

Welcome Iashiii.

If you go to Your Control Panel in the upper left of this screen and then select Account Options, you can then set your time zone. Set it correctly and all the times will be adjusted to your time zone.

[HicRic]

Just to completely take away from the real purpose of this thread:

Topic: Horse Archers, No, not an equine drink...

Wahahahahaha

*ahem* I think I'm a little too easily amused.

[Lord Rom]

Horse Archers are nasty, smelly units which I use plain archers to shoo away. And if they get too persistant... catch with hcav in long single line steel traps.

[Marquis de Said]

Horse archers are one of the game's best units. My personal favourite is Mounted crossbowmen. They rock I've sent them to shoot enemy heavy cav full of bolts and harass the general. In the end I end up charging them at some hapless archers, urban militia or peasants. I often get kill ratios of 80-100 to about 20-25 losses. Better players will probably get much better ratios.

Iashiii, try fighting the Horde. Their cavalry archers will give you grey hairs, especially on the flat terrain of eastern Europe.

Marquis

[Doug-Thompson]

Consider raiding, too.

The AI (and a lot of human players) like to fill provinces with a garrison of peasants and infantry and raise taxes to the roof.

If you find a province with a big stack with few archers and cavalry, ride a bunch of HA and melee cav in and shoot the infantry to pieces with the HA.

You can kill several hundred enemy soldiers and lose nothing but ammunition. Occasionally, the enemy will blunder. For instance, I once attacked a faction that had nothing but trash and it's royal bodyguards left. The trash routed and the melee cav killed the bodyguards, eliminating the faction.

Sometimes, the AI will decide not to let you kill a bunch of its soldiers for free and abandon the province. Several times, I've attacked a province guarded by 1,000 troops with about 200 HA, plus about 200 melee cav, and the enemy withdrew.

If you have the troops to garrison the province, take it. If you don't, delete all the buildings for cash and leave. This is especially nice for Muslim factions, because they can declare Jihad on the abandoned faction later.



============

Let me add, too, to the chorus of praise for the Szekely. It's a great unit that's available early.

[Doug-Thompson]

Now, for a run-down of the merits of particular HA units:

Russian Boyars — The best unit in this category. So good, it's scary. Speed: Normal for cavalry.

Turkish Sipahi of the Porte — Good but hard to get. Also, more mass in the unit would be nice. Speed: Normal.

Steppe Heavy Cavalry — The best missile cavalry unit you get in a regular playable faction. One of the only HA that can win a missile fight with foot archers under the right circumstances. Speed: Normal.

Hungarian Szekely — The best HA unit that you can get early. Low building requirements compared to other good HA. Decent morale, good melee and fast, fast, fast. The combination of speed and melee makes them the best routed unit-chasers in the game. They can take hundreds of prisoners. Speed: FAST.

Byz Cavalry — I have to put this one above the Faris because this unit has better melee, which is important if they get caught. Faris have a better charge. The unit is disciplined, too, which is very helpful in the hit-and-run, independent role of the HA. Speed: Normal.

Egyptian Mameluke Cavalry — This unit is also ahead of the Faris, but only because a valor bonus is available in the Sinai. Build this unit there. If you get some that aren't from there from a Jihad, for example, retrain them there. I put them below the Byz Cavalry only because they are available later. Speed: Normal.

Faris — HA with a good charge but less-than-outstanding melee. Think of them as Armenian cavalry with bows. The lower melee value hurts them a bit in chasing routers, too. If you're an Almohad with the Spanish iron provinces, for instance, train them there to boost their melee. Speed: Normal.

Golden Horde Horse Archers(edit.) — Not available unless you mod the game or bribe them. However, bribery can get you a very worthwhile number of them if the Horde goes rebel. They're not as good in melee as the preceding units in the raw statistics, but Mongol generals usually bring some valor into the bargain. Even without much valor, they're disciplined and first-rate router chasers. Speed: FAST.

Jinettes — To echo katank and ichi, these units should be used in pairs or to shoot at units pinned by other units. Use one Jinette to melee or lure, one to kill if there are no other pinning units around. Also, they should not, repeat, not be set on skirmish. Get in close and hit with those javelins. You don't have to be afraid of a fight. Jinettes are also excellent melee cav for the price and great router chasers. One of the best affordable all-round cavalry units. Speed: FAST.

Mounted Crossbowmen — I don't like this unit as much as many other players. Their rate of fire is too slow for hit-and-run horse archer skirmishing. However, they can be devastating to a bodyguard unit stuck in melee with somebody else, especially if the mounted crossbowmen get around to the back. Also, they are one of the few anti-armor units available early with low tech requirements. Speed: FAST.

Turkish Turcoman Horse — This unit needs retraining in a province with a ribat ASAP to boost their morale. After that, they're OK as long as they're not in a melee. They can chase routers well enough. If they aren't from Tripoli, which gets a valor bonus, retrain them there. Speed: FAST.

Almohad Berber Camels — Think of them as a slow unit that doesn't have to worry about being charged by light cavalry. They have nothing to worry about from hobilars, for example. Get the valor bonus in Morocco. Beware of foot archers. The big camels are vulnerable and they can't escape as quickly. Speed: SLOW.

Turcopoles — Well, at least they're better than vanilla HA. Be sure to get the valor bonus from Antioch, if possible. Speed: FAST.

Generic HA — Replace them with something better at the first opportunity. Their morale stinks and they rout if they're touched. Great for taking over early rebel provinces, though. They shoot up peasants and spears wonderfully. They can chase routers but aren't very good at it. Speed: FAST

[English assassin]

I am in the can't be bothered to use HA camps, but I can respect those who do. I don't think its easy to do well. (I do use Jinettes though which I like very much)

But I'm glad the AI has horse archers as they are a real challenge. Along with all the good advice above there is one other option when the AI doesn't have too many HA units: ignore them completely and get on with pasting the rest of the enemy army. Two or three units of HAs firing at armoured up chivalric sergeants is a big so what IMHO.

[katank]

@ english assasin, I hope you discover the joy of HAs raiding with them is especially fun.

I'm surprised that you don't like HAs but use jinettes as they are one of the toughest missile cav to use due to incredibly short range.

if you use them as light cav, I think mtd. sarges will be more economical.

[gaijinalways]

Guys, great posts, and nice reference to previous mentions on HA uses. I too, have discovered the joys and pains of using HA. The only problem in the game, as some have mentioned, is morale is low sometimes for units that are on their own and risking capture. I have had some HA units rout even without taking any casualties (even when they were in a group of units, as many as 3-4 units of HA)

[English assassin]

Katank you are right that jinettes are hard to use, in fact until I read on the Org about taking them off skirmish I had them down as totally pointless.

I guess the difference is that the power of the javelins and esp the AP factor makes them worth the effort. also if you do drop the balland they get caught up in combat they are not completely useless. Vanilla HA's just don't have enough punch unless there are lots of them and I can't micromanage that many units. But fair play to those who do.

[Drake]

For me, HA have a good trick in being alle to draw out some enemy units. If you check through unit descriptions you'll notice that some units have an impetuous trait, v.useful when using HA as sometimes these units when under fire run out and try to get at your HAs. Now, careful, as some times you may need to bring your HAs very close to do this but once you do the result can be used to a number of advantages. By pulling them out of formation, you can isolate the unit in question and wreck them, lowering morale of fellow troops and creating an opening in enemy formation. If your quick this can be exploited and start a battle on a good footing. If the unit in question is a strong one, then this gives you a chance to tire them out or leave them open to a flank attack. Mostly, HAs can outrun anything, mostly.

Some HAs, as pointed out I think above, like Boyars and Jinettes are battle winners for me. te ability to pepper enemy lines then charge home with good strength can allow a tight battle to be turned, espically if the strike is at a key point like flank, rear or general engaged in battle. So while HAs have their weak ponts, they do have their merits. As I've always said, it is down to you.

[Ludens]

Read this tread: Teach me how to use HA. It contains lost of information on how to use horse archers and javelin troops, and has helped me to win my first major victory with those troops. Special thanks should go to Doug-Thompson for keeping the thread alive.
Doug, you oversight of the different types of HA is useful, but it lacks the Mongol Horse Archer. Is that one worth bribing?

[ah_dut]

you just need good micro skills that's all welcome to the Org Ishii

[ah_dut]

I like mongol HA a lot ludens. but to be honest, mamluks are just a little slower but just as good

[Doug-Thompson]

Oh yeah, Ludens, Mongol HA are well worth bribing. One of my favorite tricks is using Syrian assassins to kill Mongol leaders so their armies will go rebel. Then they can be bribed on the cheap.

I didn't include them because they can't be built without modding. I have used, them, though, and would put them a little lower than the faris and a lot higher than the Turcoman Horse.

I'll edit the list and put them in.

[Iashiii]

Well, thanks for all the advice, everyone (even if it is a little overwhelming) It seems I have previously missed out a whole facet of the game. That's the thing I love about MTW, there's always something you've missed, something new to try. I'll certainly be giving those HA's a shot in the future. It's nice to see such a welcoming community.