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Thread: The Megapolis

  1. #1
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    I have started a poll in the Junior members hall so that all can participate in it. But since here all the moders are gathered I have came to ask more than a vote

    The thing is that no matter how good are you making a good “conversion” mode needs a lot of talents and time. … I have some of the first and practically none of the second.

    So I would like to make a team of 3 to 5 people to tackle the tasks that will rise from the challenge especially if the Hellenic Total War come as most popular where a totally new map will be needed.

    Things that will change … every thing … new trade goods, ships, totally new bunch of units, formations, flags buildings, graphics for all the above, maps, descriptions, battle maps, … did I forget anything???

    What I can decently do is the units, startpos files, some of the unit graphics, define the map but not parse it, … and that about sums it up.

    So by Sunday we will know which one it will be So if anyone would like to help please do …

  2. #2
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    I can help you with the faction list, unit line-up, names, descriptions... and that's about it. Just drop a mail @ young_frankie@yahoo.com and I'll try to do my best.

    My time is severely limited, though, so we have to have a rather ...untight scedule.
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

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    Member Member flip's Avatar
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    Ancient Units Site

    I may contribut with new units, preparing the pack for Komninos. And about the shields, did you receave my answer?

    PS: the link is for a new site, the hyperlink "screenshots" is not working yet.



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    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    Thanks for the interest and I hope for the voting.

    From what things are showing the Hellenic Total War will be the winner. This is nice for two reasons.
    1. It does not compete with KDs Patrician mod but it can work as a stepping-stone.
    2. It does not compete with CA Rome Total War

    The project will be split in various areas of interest.
    1. Map making and startpos files. – I think I will have to develop some tools for the accompanying files (descriptions, names … etc)
    2. Unit creation – This will deal with the unit list and the graphic work to insert them in the game (also ships)
    3. Building creation – This will deal with the building list and there graphics
    4. Tech Tree and balancing – This looks easy but it is not practically this is half of the game (one thing I have not done in the Persian wars).
    5. Historical work – This has to do with digging up info on the period, units buildings, factions, events, key events (like the Phalanx creation that will trigger the ability to build hoplites) and passing all this info in the game. (Not my kind of work I hate righting )

    I will do the unit work … I have doth the tools and the knowledge BUT I will need help on the graphics part. Flip you know I have taken your offer on that for the shields and if possible to bit more than that. I am working on the first file of the dark age and hoplites.

    I will have the map built quite fast ~2 days but I cant parse it. I will need help on that if any body can help (Simply pass it from LLM and maybe correct some mistakes)

    In building I am ignorant … Help will be needed for both the graphics and the file it self.

    The tech tree is some thing I will need a lot of input from you people any one interested?

    Finally the strings in the game … who is good at history and like to write about it, Rosacrux ??????

    Lancer6969

    See what you can do and help and let me know, thanks

  5. #5
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    OK, I had an hour to work (spouse still sleeping) so I came up with some preliminary data.

    Ancient Greek mod

    Factions

    If an only-Greeks mod:

    Athens
    Sparta
    Thessalon Koinon
    Kingdom of Macedonia
    Kingdom of Epirus
    Thebe
    Ionia
    Syracuse
    Aetolon Koinon
    Creta
    Corinth

    If we include non-Greeks too

    Persia
    Illyrians
    Romans
    Karthagenians
    Galates (Gaul)
    Skythes
    Thracians


    Eras:
    - Geometrical (or “dark ages”)
    - Classical
    - Hellenistic


    Here is a Greek unit line up

    Generic Greek units:

    Geometrical era (”dark age”)
    Early Hoplite
    Psilos Javelin
    Psilos Bow
    Psilos sling
    Hippis
    Akondistes
    Slinger


    Classical
    Classical Hoplite (or Hoplite)
    Ekdromos hoplite (light)
    Peltast
    Xistophoroi hippis
    Toxotes
    Medium cavalry
    Javelin cavalry


    Hellenistic era

    Phalangites
    Thireophoros
    Rompheophoros
    Heavy cavalry
    Prodromoi hippis
    Thorakites

    Faction Specific

    Athens specific: Iphikratian hoplite

    Sparta Specific: Spartan hoplite, Skirites

    Thebes specific: Theban hoplite, Theban light cavalry

    Thessaly specific: Thessalian cavalry

    Crete specific: Cretan archers

    Macedon specific: Heteroi cavalry, Hypaspists shock infantry, Pezeteroi (Macedonian phalangites)

    Region specific:

    Agriannes Javelinmen (Illyrikon)
    Thracian Peltast (Thrace)
    Rhodian slinger (Rhodes)
    Syracusae light infantry (Syracusae)
    Thracian cavalry (Thrace)
    Paeonian light cavalry (Paeonia)
    Skythian archers (Skythia)
    Akarnanian Javelineer (Akarnania)


    Siege units:


    Classical era

    - Gastraphetes
    - Eythytonon
    - Palintonon
    - Vallista

    Hellenistic era
    -Catapeltes
    - Hellepolis
    - Onagros


    Sea units

    Geometrical era

    - Pendikondoros

    Classical era

    - Bireme
    - Trireme

    Hellenistic era

    - quinqueremes
    - Hepteres




    So… observations? Additions? Changes?



    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  6. #6
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Eeeeeeeek.... Over Information ... processing ...

    Thanks Rosacrux,
    Have to prosses them.
    Though some look very similar ... were the Thireophoros also using the Romphea?

    Any way mor info will be needed ... I think you vote for the Hellenic Total War .

    I plan on using the Illyrians, Skythans (thay will also give an exelent achers unit), Galatans, Frygians (I htink they were still there), Lydians, and Persians. Romans and Carthigians come about after Alexander and the death of Philip is the end of the game It will not get in the the Hellinistic Era. (Thats for part two) Also Syracuse is out of the game cause we will have to make Etruscans also and the map gets way too big. The problem is the size of Greece. The provinces get very small.

  7. #7
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    If the death of Philip is the end of the game, all the abovementioned units save the hellepolis and Hepteros are in - Philipos reformed the Macedonian army, not Alexandros


    As for rompheophori-thireoforoi, they are different things, thireophoros was kind of a Greek legionary, carrying the thyreos shield and equiped with javelins and sword, usually also a spear.

    Sometimes thireophoroi are called also thorakites, but the latter tend to be more heavily armoured (hence the name - "cuirassiers" for our non-Greek speaking friends ).

    Neither Lydians nor Phrygians were a great power back then, but I guess we could add them for flavor... it's just that it's not an easy thing to make some diverse unit line up with those. But I'll see what I can do.

    Flip did a fantastic job with the unit graphs - most of those we'll need are already there and the few left I hope he can produce as well

    When I find some time I'll proceed with the descriptions, but we'll have to finalize the line up before. Check those out, brainstorm a bit, if anybody else wishes to give an opinion and when it's final, I can get the descriptions in no time.
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  8. #8
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi Rosacrux,

    In the Geometric age,

    What is the difference with
    Psilos Javelin - Akondistes
    Psilos sling - Slinger

    And the Hippis must be lightly armed javeliners with no armor or any protection aren't they;

  9. #9
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    Hi Komninos

    Psilos Javelin: No armour, very poor moral, very weak attack, very weak defense, armed with javelins

    Psilos sling:No armour, very poor moral, very weak attack, very weak defense, armed with sling (low range and lethality)

    Akondistes: Very light armour, standard moral, weak attack, weak defense, armed with javelins and a light shield (the predecessor to the Peltast)

    Slinger: VEry light armour, standard moral, weak attack, weak defense, armed with sling and a buckler, upped range and lethality.

    The Psilos version is a very poor version of javelineers and slingers, while the other two are more "professional" and definitely more reliable (that can be represented in the game too, by making them much more expensive than the psilos version and upping their requirements).


    And the Hippis are the standard cavalry... something like the "light cavalry" or the hobilars of VI-MTW. No javelin, they are supposed to have spears.

    Maybe you are thinking of hammipos? But they were armed with swords.



    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  10. #10
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi Rosacrux,

    I would like to make as litle change to the importan files of the game as posible ... Unfortunatly the Projectiles are hard coded so this is a file that will take the change. The Rodian slingers will go at the Ninj lacation so I get to locations from the guns for the slings Gastrafetes will take the Crossbow but for the rest of the sieg weapons ... I don't know. I will try and see how it goes.

    One more thing ... how well armored were the dark age hoplites. My impresion is that of a good plate armor, javelins and a spear or sword for the fight. Normal moral.

    Also I think tha it would be good to make two Clasical age hoplites. One for the large city states Athens, Argos, Corinth ... of good class and a lesser city of normal. For the Thebian ... Ieros Lohos (Holy Regiment) I will see what to do with them probably will make them something of a special unit of good quality and a moral of 12. Spartans will go to the guard category. And they will have a advantage with there dark age hoplites over the rest.




  11. #11

    Talking

    Yeah, PERSIANS


    Faction specific:

    Immortals: early period guard, shield, spear, bow
    Sparabara: early/high close, deep formation archers, reasonable defence against cavalry, pavise
    Heavy or Noble cavalry: Heavy armour, javelins
    Apple bearers: high/late guard hoplites medium armour
    Kardakes: late hoplites (Ificratean style?)
    Greek hoplites: better as expensive faction units then relying on mercenary system, I would think.


    Region specific:

    All Persian homelands:
    Persian slinger: shield, sling
    Persian light archers
    Persian cavalry: javelins light armour
    Takabara: High/Late, pelte, javelins

    Eastern lands:
    Auxiliary Infantry: spear + bow
    Light cavalry: Horse archers

    Northern lands:
    Javelin light infantry and light cavalry

    Scythian lands:
    Saka Noble cavalry: heavy armour, shield, spear, bow
    Saka light cavalry: bow, fast
    Saka infantry: light archers

    Thracia:
    Thracian peltasts: shield javelins, fast
    Thracian rhomphaioi: irresistable charge
    Thracian light cavalry: shield, javelins

    Karia: hoplites

    Lydia: hoplites

    Kappadokia: cataphracts
    Armenia: cataphracts:

    India:
    Longbows,close formation
    Infantry: spear shield, defend well against cavalry
    Cavalry: shield spear

    Arabia:
    Camel archers

    All Persian units, very cheap and slighly better moral.
    All bows, exept arabs, slightly upped MTLG.

    Comments, please?

  12. #12
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi,

    The Persians are a difficalt thing to handle. The map is a bit eastern of Asia minor. The Persians will appear as a new faction in High period with a huge force. I am not sure How to make them appear this way. There units are basicaly produced in land that are not included in the map. So they will get a number of units but most of them will be indeginus units from the concured lands.

    Persian origin units are good and not that cheep but lighly armed.
    Persian armies are composed though mainly with slave units that suffer in moral. They are mostly lighly armed loke all eastern units.
    Thanks for the input. At the moment the focus is on the early units which are the Dark Age units. You will have to deal with them for 300 years till 700AD. Persian will appear much later in the seen but they will overwelm most factions very fast

  13. #13
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    Good work on the Persian side Latro
    What about Media? Median archers, maybe? Or Median light cavalry?

    Also since this mod starts early on, I guess Komninos wants to implement Thracian, Karian and Lydian as factions, so their unique units could be made region specific, so anyone getting their lands can produce them.

    Komninos

    I think there are already two variations of the standard hoplite in the "High" (classical) era: Standard hoplite and ekdromos (light) hoplite. The Athenians get a better version of the latter as faction specific (Ifikratian hoplite) and the Spartans a better version of the former (Spartan Hoplite). Also the Thebans get their faction specific Theban Hoplite (Sacred Band is the English name for "Ieros Lochos").

    Shouldn't those be enoug Hoplite variations

    BTW I agree on the better dark age hoplite for the Spartans.

    Also, the Late era should be dominated by the Macedonian phalanx - Philipos did conquer Greece with his phalanx after all - and thous phalangites (Pezeteroi for the Macedonian faction) should be better than hoplites.

    The geometrical era hoplites used either a medium quality plate thorax or a linen thorax (metal banded) and had a primitive version of the hoplon (aspis), wore a pilum-like helmet, and used a spear and a little sword for close encounters. No javelins.

    BTW, what kind of era names shall you give? Probably Early becomes Geometrical and High... Archaic or Classical? Late? Maybe Geometrical, Archaic, Classical respectively?

    BTW2: If you have Civ3 (or even if you don't, there are screenies) you can check out this thread in the CivFanatics Forum... maybe we could add even more hoplite variations

    Edited once more: I am not sure, but I guess the only way to make the {Persian "appear" in the High era is to mod the GH to become Persian... dunno if this could bring some more complications...

    The eras you plan on using are 1000-700, 700-480 and 480-350?



    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The Persians are a difficalt thing to handle. The map is a bit eastern of Asia minor. The Persians will appear as a new faction in High period with a huge force. I am not sure How to make them appear this way. There units are basicaly produced in land that are not included in the map. So they will get a number of units but most of them will be indeginus units from the concured lands.
    Well, we'll need a different map anyways, didn't someone do an eastern map already? It only needs to go a bit more west to include Hellas and Macedon. Persians could start as early then. You could start with Cyros (600's or what?) and conquer the empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Persian armies are composed though mainly with slave units that suffer in moral.
    This may be true for the Sassanid era (and even that is probablyexagerated) but the Achaemenids were pretty warlike, especially the nobility. They should suffer mostly because they had inferior equipment and fighting style against the greeks. If used wisely by a cunning player they should be able to perform reasonably well.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]What about Media? Median archers, maybe? Or Median light cavalry?
    Could do. Reason I left them out is because they are basically the same as Persians. They did have seperate units though. So yeah, why not.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    A Hellinistic mod would seem very appealing to me. With all the Greek citystates battling out. If you're a bit further with this mod, and I have some time left, send me some pictures of units you want. I offer my abilities to make 2 or 3 infantry units if you like. I will only provide the BIFs, weapon posititioning will be your job. Give me a sign if you're interested.

    Cheers, Duke John

  16. #16
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    You asked for it ...

    I will sent you the relevant zip. It is the Viking bif file and some small files that when placed in the write place will give you a working testbed.

    Righ now we need a basic Hoplite. --
    Here are a cuple of liks to get the picture
    The Athenean
    The Spartan
    The Ificratian Reform
    I think one of the two first are the best to pick. All hoplite have a cape that hangs from the shoulders. Use the stripe colour so this can be set from the start pos file.
    I will send you the file when I built a help text file on what and where to place everything flip is having a crazy time placing all the part at there place Sorry flip.

    One more thing ... you said you will do two ... pick whitch one you would like to do.
    Perhaps a some of the light units or cavalry?
    I have planed for four body types.
    Body armor, Curias armor
    One with medium armor for the Thireophoros or Rompheophoros
    And a half naket with just Greek slile tuning. Only one hoplite is realy needed.




  17. #17
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Rosacrux

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I think there are already two variations of the standard hoplite in the "High" (classical) era: Standard hoplite and ekdromos (light) hoplite. The Athenians get a better version of the latter as faction specific (Ifikratian hoplite) and the Spartans a better version of the former (Spartan Hoplite). Also the Thebans get their faction specific Theban Hoplite (Sacred Band is the English name for "Ieros Lochos").

    Shouldn't those be enoug Hoplite variations
    You have a point there ... The thing is that the problem come from the fact that the standard hoplite was used every where. The Athinean got the Ificratin Hoplite after the persian war. There standard hoplites were superior to the rest of the lesser cities. Same goes for Argos. On the other hand the big cities will be mostly represented so the rest cun get just Ekdromos. Spartans will get there owne but it will take 3 to 4 year to built one while the rest will get it in 2 years. Thebians are a strange situation ... most probably I will make a standard good hoplite with a huge moral.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Also, the Late era should be dominated by the Macedonian phalanx - Philipos did conquer Greece with his phalanx after all - and thous phalangites (Pezeteroi for the Macedonian faction) should be better than hoplites.
    Yes but at some point they were beaten from a coalition of states led by athens. Any way they will have a sariza that would give the standard hoplite the differnce it needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The geometrical era hoplites used either a medium quality plate thorax or a linen thorax (metal banded) and had a primitive version of the hoplon (aspis), wore a pilum-like helmet, and used a spear and a little sword for close encounters. No javelins.
    Hoplites came about with the reforms made in Argos about 700AD. I have seen many drowings with a shiels that looks like an 8 (ok not exaclty but ...) and have two spears in one hand and one in the right. I also know that they foght in open formatios thoughing spears while attacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]BTW, what kind of era names shall you give? Maybe Geometrical, Archaic, Classical respectively?
    Well the Geometric, Archaic, Classical is the best I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Edited once more: I am not sure, but I guess the only way to make the {Persian "appear" in the High era is to mod the GH to become Persian... dunno if this could bring some more complications...
    Yes I am realy Puzzled about the Persians ... My focus is on getting the Geometric Era to work and take it from there. By the way do you know any one that can parse the map for me. I made it last night but I have to pass it from LMM.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The eras you plan on using are 1000-700, 700-480 and 480-350?
    Yes ... though I think the first should be til 780 But 700 gives us 300 years of dark age to play with ... sice round number.

    Latro
    Lets make the Geometric Period to work OK and we can take it from there. If I had it my way I would make a map that spans from the Britain till India and from Denmark till Abisinia. BUT I realy don't think that the MTW will handle well with some thing that big and some 500 teritories Basicaly I made a map that had from Greece till Persia but Greece was so small that the castles would not fit in the areas given I had Greece in 12 ereas Welly was asking for 6 In the map I have now Pelopones is divited in to 12 ereas That is the needed space for three factions: Spartans,Argians, Corinthinas. Just imagine a map that you can divide Pelopones in 12 and reaches till the persian golf
    OK I would do it IF CA paid some realy had cash for it




  18. #18
    Member Member flip's Avatar
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    This mod gonna rock, I'm just hurried with the fact that people here found that VI its not moddable. I think It was Wellington. Lets pray.

    Other question. Komninos, do you plan to change the factions shields (bifs) in the review pannel? It will be nice to add them some flavour. I did some tests on this. Can you list here the factions that will be present?
    CHIEF DESIGNER

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  19. #19
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Hi flip,

    I think Welly simply stated that it is not as moddable as they praised it would be and I can’t say I disagree with him. What I think they did was try to reduce the time to market. But they changed the structure of the files (very bad practice for a game that supports and depends on the modding community), second these changes made the game very sensitive to change, third though the game was fairly simple to mod it had a complex file structure now this was increased making it a bit of a nightmare. Finally they put the stakes too high and I think some of us are disappointed. (i.e. they stated that events could be defined … but never how you can do it&#33
    But for total conversions like this … we need these changes and we will live with them. I think the best thing for Ca would be to create a developers connection or forum where tools and file definitions would be found. I have a feeling that RTW is going to be a lot more complex.

    Now on the factions, I am not very confident with that … for sure the following:
    Spartans, Argians, Corinthians, Athenians, Biotians, Thesalians, Macedonians and Thrasians for the Greek factions.
    Ilirians in the north west, I am note sure who lived in the north west the map goes till Danube so it does not cover the Skythans (they will have some units as mercenaries)
    In the east Frygians, Lydians for sure. Persians if we can make them pop-up at sertain time.
    Minor factions might include Cretans, Ionians (Asia minor), Aetolians, Epirotes.
    The Ionians, and island populations are troublesome I might disperse them to the major factions that they descended form (ie. Mitilineans to Sparta or Argos Doric descent).

    Comments

  20. #20
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    There are more than a few things I'd like to address, but right now I've got no time. So... just keep in mind that the Thracians are not Greeks (and thus should not be a "Greek faction") that Thessalians, Macedonian and Epirots never used hoplites (hoplite=city state) that if Lydians are in surely Karians should also be in, that the faction you are looking for the north of Macedonia are the Paeonians (great light cavalry and skirmishers) and... for the rest, I'll reply later... probably I'll post a ancient balkan map (have to scan it though) so I'll get back to you.
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  21. #21
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Here we are going to agree that we disagree.
    Greeks recognised them shelves as Greeks by there customs and language not by tribe.
    Thracians were recognised as Greeks this is also stated by a righter but I can't remember his name now. Of lesser statue to the rest (Southern Greeks) but Greeks.

    Above Biotia the areas remained rural and connected to the old governing system of the Greeks. Most of these territories suffered from the passing of northern barbarians or the Eastern Empires. A large part of Thrace remained under Persian rule for a long time.

    The Hoplite was used in numbers only in the south in large numbers for a very simple reason ... COST. They used some form of Hoplite but not as powerful to the one used in the south. Also DBA gives a hoplite to the northern Greeks but is only a small force in a sea of skirmishers and light cavalry.

    Now Lydians are an Eastern power that concurred most of what is now Turkey. They were very powerful in there time. But they were over powered by the Persians. Under the Persians the Lydians Royals were intermixed with the high class Persians And the East Satrapies remained under there control. There capital Sardis was one of the grates cities of the time.

    Have to read a lot My memory does not help me much.





  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    I hope you understood me, when I said I would make units. I make new models and render them. You can see some results of my efforts in the Lord of the Rings thread. These are not done by editing exisint BIFs but are entirely new. Since the three provided units look very much alike, I will see what I can do for them in the coming days.




  23. #23
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Duke John,

    I have not not seen your work till now but I gues that it would be better than any thing I have done. I 've seen shuch models for the Napoleonic mod.

    I don't know how much time it takes to build them ... so this is up to you my friend. Any of us wiould give you as much info you need.

    Thanks again.

    Some thing to note.
    Hoplites hold there spears perpendicular to the ground when standing or walking.
    On a run they hold them above there head ready to strike.
    On a charge they spear lower to the belly level.
    They fight by holding the spears above there head and aiming for the neck.
    The ones that use pikes (ificratian, sariza) use both hands to handle the pike.
    The body is perpendicular to the shield while they fight. the shoulder pushes the shield forward while the other hand holds the spear. The Shiels is used for shuffiling, pushing and some times slacing the enemy.

  24. #24
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    Komninos

    1. I am Greek also And native Greek too. And I am quite a history buff so I do know very well our common ancestral heritage. Plus I am an avid fun of military history and especially ancient warfare.

    Trying to help here, so that the mod shall be as historically accurate as possible, while still be fun to play. I hope you do understand that, don't you?

    Everything I write is a result of research on my behalf and is 100% accurate. Γιατί λοιπόν διαφωνούμε συνεχώς? Aν δεν χρειάζεσαι τη βοήθειά μου τότε εντάξει, να σταματήσω να την προσφέρω.

    1. in Thrace there were numerous Greek cities (especially along the shoreline) but the bulk of the population of the region was not of Greek origin.

    Allthough most of them got hellenized later on (at least in the time of Philipos' reign in Macedonia, most Thracians were partly or fully hellenized) they were not Greek to begin with. And Greeks never counted them as Greeks.

    The distinction I made about the northern kingdoms (Macedon, Epirus, Thessaly) is a vital one, since – as you point out too – they never got to the southern urban culture status so the hoplite (which is a phenomenon tied together with the urban culture and more so the city-state institution and that is shown by the adoption of the hoplite by Rome in it’s early development and by each and every Italian city state, even the non-Greek ones) never was used widely in those areas.

    3. The power of the Lydians was never such as to “cover all what is today Turkey”. Phrygia, Karia and Ionia, for instance, were not conquered by the Lydian. The Persians have gotten to them since 550 BC or so, and they never recovered after it. I am not an expert on Lydian history so I might very well be mistaken, but that's what I've read. Anyway, that's your decision.


    A description for some of the units Duke John would work on:

    Standard Hoplite: Breastplate (thorax) greaves 2-2.5 m. long spear, large round bronze shield, Korinthian helmet. The distinction of the Spartan hoplite should be a Lamda on their shields and a red cloak. Theban hoplites should have the “club of Hercules” painted on their shields.

    Ifikratian hoplite: Linen armor, no greaves (they wore sandals) pelti shield (wooden oval, kinda 8-shaped, shield, they kept attached to the arm by a telamon while they were holding the pike with both hands) 4-4.5 long pike, pilos helmet.


    Some replies to your previous posts:


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You have a point there ... The thing is that the problem come from the fact that the standard hoplite was used every where. The Athinean got the Ificratin Hoplite after the persian war. There standard hoplites were superior to the rest of the lesser cities. Same goes for Argos. On the other hand the big cities will be mostly represented so the rest cun get just Ekdromos. Spartans will get there owne but it will take 3 to 4 year to built one while the rest will get it in 2 years. Thebians are a strange situation ... most probably I will make a standard good hoplite with a huge moral.
    It is a mistake to replace the standard hoplite anywhere with the ekdromos, since the latter was used only during and after the pelloponesian war era and on and it was a “hoplite light”, so to say.

    Also, Iphikrates made his reforms in the 420s, not “after the persian wars”.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Yes but at some point they were beaten from a coalition of states led by athens. Any way they will have a sariza that would give the standard hoplite the differnce it needs.
    Philipos was beaten? When?


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Hoplites came about with the reforms made in Argos about 700AD. I have seen many drowings with a shiels that looks like an 8 (ok not exaclty but ...) and have two spears in one hand and one in the right. I also know that they foght in open formatios thoughing spears while attacking.
    Hoplites indeed seem to have occurred in the Argean area but the right timeframe is 800-750 BC. And they never used the “oktashimi” shield (which was abandoned after the Mycenean era, only to comeback during the 5th century as the similar "pelti" the Thracean peltasts used) their name derives – as you probably know – from the large round wooden (initially) or bronze (later, after the Spartans adopted it) shield called hoplon.

    Also, might you post the pictures you are talking about? AFAIK the hoplites never used any other weaponry besides the spear and the sword. I think you could add a generic warrior type for the early geometrical era, to cover the gap that is there. You could call it “polemistes” or something like that and arm it the way you describe. But hoplite had no javelins. Not very historically accurate, but gameplay-wise it should work well.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Well the Geometric, Archaic, Classical is the best I think.
    Very well
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Standard Hoplite: Breastplate (thorax) greaves 2-2.5 m. long spear, large round bronze shield, Korinthian helmet. The distinction of the Spartan hoplite should be a Lamda on their shields and a red cloak. Theban hoplites should have the “club of Hercules” painted on their shields.

    Ifikratian hoplite: Linen armor, no greaves (they wore sandals) pelti shield (wooden oval, kinda 8-shaped, shield, they kept attached to the arm by a telamon while they were holding the pike with both hands) 4-4.5 long pike, pilos helmet.
    Standard hoplites could also wear the linnen thorax or even none at all. From the birth of the hoplite his armour would get lighter and lighter. It is the hoplon that gives the protection.

    My understanding of Ificrates’ reform of the hoplite was that he changed the shield.
    The hoplon has a broad outer rim, the new shield did away with that rim and was lighter.
    Doing away with the rim meant that the grip was much closer to the edge, with the addition of a sling you can now use the left hand to support a pike. You can not hold a pike with a traditional hoplon.

    The word ‘pelte’ usually describes a light shield, as opposed to the heavy hoplon.
    The Thracians typically used pelti in the form of a half moon but oval and round were also used. The dyplon (the smaller figure of 8 shield) was used in archaic times and, judging by the Persepolis reliefs, still for some time in Persia.

    The new shield used by the Ificratean hoplite was much lighter than the hoplon and thus called a ‘pelte’. Not because of its shape, which was round.

    The late phalanx also used this shield and this explains why the phezetairoi could easily switch to the role of peltast, for scouting or scaling walls. They just had to exchange the sarissa for a javelin.
    The hypaspists are thought to have continued the use of the hoplon. With a short spear this would make them more useful as body guards.

    Oh, and I would prefer the Ificratean hoplites with the more modern thracian helmet, instead of the pilos.

  26. #26
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    Good points Latro, but there are descriptions of Ifikratian hoplites carrying an actual pelti. And the shield the Macedonian used was even smaller.

    but all in all valid remarks.


    Komninos

    Here you can find a map of the ancient balkans+asia minor... might be useful to the mod.
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  27. #27

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    OOOOH

    Just found This page; Shield emblems galore

  28. #28
    Isn't she pretty in pink? Member Rosacrux's Avatar
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    Very intereting page... Great drawings... Komninos and the other unit-makers should be delighted


    ...I've noticed that there are indeed some drawings of early (c. 720 BC) Greek warriors carrying the hoplon and also spears-heavy javelins... allthough they were probably not actual hoplites, since the evolution of the hoplite phalanx wasn't complete then.

    Fits with the generic "polemistes" scenario well
    CHIEF HISTORIAN

  29. #29
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Well Leto,

    This is where I got my shields from for the Persian Wars mod.

    Rosacrux,

    Hold your horses ... sorry I if offended you ... we Greeks always like to argue a lot . I have always though the Thrasian as a Greek tribe ... any way. The post was made in 3:20 in the morning after working all day and still in the office so it must have carried something of all that.

    I will live the historical stuff to you. I will just do the units. Can you right some thing on the Geometrical units so I can built them an we can test them. I will used the factions in Viking so the smallest changes will be needed for the testing.

    On the hoplite and lesser hoplite thing ... My problem is that it will take some time to develop an area for hoplite production ... a lighter hoplite that would come rapidly in hand and then used for guarding would be very handy.

    On the Dark age hoplites ...
    I think we have a misunderstanding here ... You refer to the actual hoplites used by the Argians in ~800 I was referring to the unit used before that my mistake here (what was there name???) remember it will start at 1000AD but that complicates things with the dispersion of hoplites since some how the Argians should get them first. An event like "Heavy Armour Development" with a small armoury available to the Argians might just solve it. (Similar to the "gun powder" event)

    I have come up with 5 body type that we can reduce in the name of complexity.
    1. Standard Hoplite
    2. Ificratian hoplite
    3. One for the Thireophoros, Rompheophoros (chain like????)
    4. Tuning - for the Peltasts and other light types (this can be accommodated by the peasant body)
    5. Cavalry man with Standard armour.

    I have a good collection of maps and a satellite image of the area that I will use for the map. As I said that’s ready BUT I have to pass it from LMM and that does not work in Win98 plus a more experienced person in map making is needed for that anyone ....

  30. #30
    Member Member flip's Avatar
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    I have this one
    A lot of information
    Amazon




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    Hellenic Total War

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