Wars of the Roses Expansion

[Duke John]

[]



Wars of the Roses BETA version 0.1 released

The mod isn't finished yet and you will probably notice some glitches, but my progress is halting and I hope that feedback from the fans of this period will inspire me. So read on and play some games

Installation
Follow the steps below to install WotR beta 0.1:

• Download the WotR beta v0.1 from this location

• Copy the content of the ZIP into your M:TW installation folder.

• The mod only works if you have the following:- Medieval: Total War + Viking Invasion expansion installed

• English version

• No other mods installed.

Gameplay
Battles during the Wars of the Roses were mostly between large bodies of infantry. Cavalry played a very limited part as the longbow and the various staff weapons made mounted units ineffective.

Battles mostly began with a missile war. Since both sides had the ability to field longbows it they cancelled each other out. At a certain time the infantry would no longer stand the barrage of missiles and then the lines would move forward.

There are 4 different troop types: Men-at-Arms (very effective but few in numbers), Retinue troops (flexible and reasonably strong), Shire troops (many in numbers but not as trained as the Retinue troops) and Mercenaries (various troop types that were hired from the mainland).

Playtesting
Unitcosts and stats are not 100% balanced yet. When you decide to help me balance the stats then always play with no upgrades, be it valour, weapons or armour. The quickest way to destroy balance is by upgrading your units.

What holds the future?
The current version needs the following to be complete:
- Names for the commanders
- Flags and shields for various factions
- Icons for several units

And I will also add the following:
- 3 more BIFs, that means 3 more units. At the moment I am thinking of Mounted Men-at-Arms, Handgunners and Culverins.
- More factions so that we are able to recreate all historical battles with the right commanders.
- Maps of the famous battle sites
- Historical Battles/Campaigns

To complete the experience I am also working on a Wars of the Roses website that gives more background to the commanders, battles and units. That site will probably also feature multi-player campaigns consisting of linked battles.

Screenshots







Installing the Wars of the Roses mod together with other mods
This works with most other mods as long, there are some exceptions of which the easiest to recognize is that the other mod shouldn't have CUSTOM BIF folders in Textures\Men

Step 1: Temporary installation
Install the Wars of the Roses mod into a temporary directory.

Step 2: Combining modfiles
Now open the following file in both the WotR and MTW installation directories/folders:Textures/Men/DEADPAGE COORDS.TXT[/list]In the WotR version copy all WOTRUnitName entries together with the 4 coordinates lines below each entry and paste it into the MTW version. Save the MTW file.

Now open the following files in both the Wars of the Roses and MTW installtion directories/folders:Loc\Eng\Names.TXT
Loc\Eng\Descriptions.TXT[/list]In the WotR versions copy everything that stands between the *** WotR comments *** and paste it into the corresponding MTW versions. Save the MTW files.

Step 3: Installing the WotR mod
Now delete all the mentioned files in the temporary WOTR folder, NOT the MTW installion.
Then copy the content of the WotR folder into the MTW folder.

Step 4: Play the game
Everything should work now. If it doesn't work then there is a change that the other mod is completely incompatible with other mods. Note that you shouldn't try this with the HTW, NTW and METW mods.


Last words
I would appreciate any feedback on this mod, be it balance suggestions, a list of names or maps, it will probably mean that this mod only gets better

Have fun,
Duke John

[/]

-----------------edit by drone------------------------------
Wars of the Roses v0.1 is part of this archive file
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[Puzz3D]

Duke John.

Sounds interesting, and I'll be glad to help in online testing to get the unit balance you want. Also, almost everyone in my clan is interested in playing mods.

I think CBR has solved the upgrade and morale issues in his mod, and you could use the same techniques in yours. Having units move a little faster will reduce fatigue which should help with gameplay.

[CBR]

The graphics look impressive

Although Im currently busy with my own mod I can help if its needed.

If units have same cost then you have to ensure that the unit is actually worth the cost. At least that will mean that all units have a role and will be used although the total number of units might be a bit limited...dont know.

Im a strong believer in playing with no or as few upgrades as possible and you might not agree with that

In my older MPwars mod I also had a limited choice of units but made them in several sizes (spears of 80/100/120 men for example) That gave the player the opportunity to make many different armies. MPwars was also a game of no/few upgrades and IMO it worked fine. That is one way of doing it.

STW also didnt have many units but had no hardcoded 4 unit max as MTW and upgrades were cheaper (although horrible unbalanced upgrade cost)

Upgrading is costly so if units have same cost you will most likely see all units with same amount of upgrades. Otherwise you will see the same effect as MTW/STW where the cheapest units gets the most upgrades to make all units af nearly same cost.

If you say play at 10k and all unit cost were 500 then you would only have 2k for upgrades and cant give it to all. That should make some variation I guess.

But there might be other things you can do...thats just me making a quick post.


And another thing. You might as well expect the worst. The community is very conservative and lazy. Make a mod for the sake of your own interest. Never count on it being played much. If it actually will be played then thats just a bonus. Sad but true.

In the near future I plan a tournament for my mod hoping that might increase the interest. But its not like Im counting on a landslide heh.

Recreating historical battles might get some interest in using the mod too..


CBR

[Duke John]

Puzz3D
Thanks for the offer For the coming days I will be mainly working on the units so that I can show that this mod earnest. If the rest of your clan is willing to help too it will probably go quickly since a clan is better at setting up battles (or so I hope). Again many thanks

CBR

Quote[/b] ]Im a strong believer in playing with no or as few upgrades as possible and you might not agree with that

I had hoped that that point came across, but apparently it didn't. I am also a strong believer that upgrades should be left out as much as possible.

It always remains possible, but hopefully we can make the unitcosts so high that upgrades are not favourable compared to naked troops. I don't know how the unitcosts are calculated so I must admit that I am not sure about this.

Quote[/b] ]You might as well expect the worst. The community is very conservative and lazy. Make a mod for the sake of your own interest. Never count on it being played much. If it actually will be played then thats just a bonus. Sad but true.

I know... but I simply love the Wars of the Roses period. If this mod fails to be popular then I would have at least a game that is completly customized at my hearts content.
Making the models is the bit that I love to do, I can look for hours at images drawn Graham Turner in the Osprey books, spotting little details and modelling them.

If I can convince just a few people with whom I can play just a few games I am already a happy man.

But I also that my/new unitgraphics sell. From my experience with H:TW and ME:TW I know that loads of players appreciate the detail and hopefully that will be enough to convince downloading them.
To help "selling" the mod I might make trailers to let players see how it looks ingame. At ME:TW, Aldaeron made a very simple trailer and it somehow got on gamespy, in the meantime it has been downloaded over 1000 times. ME:TW also got a review in a French magazine. A good "marketing" may help, if it will work is something for the future.

I think your mod, while balancing the game, really misses something fresh and exciting to convince the community. In my eyes it's a bit dry, the only change are some numbers. I am convinced that your mod helps balancing the game, veteran and clan members are/will also be convinced. The regular player however only sees a txt file that promises better games, but they can see nothing. People are visually oriented, just think of all the games who good graphics but have the worst gameplay. Do not see this as negative critism.

Quote[/b] ]Recreating historical battles might get some interest in using the mod too..

Historical battles will certainly be included at some point. The Osprey books have some great 3D maps depicting troop movements and I can't wait to converting them to M:TW

[CBR]

Oh yes my mod has the problem of nothing obviously new about it. Graphics will definitely help in selling a mod.

I just dont have the patience working on graphics (although I wish I had) and most importantly I wanted the mod to be as easy as possible to install and uninstall. I have also encountered weird problems for people even when a mod is made as simple as possible to install. So right now the mod is working on the KISS principle heh

I have been looking at the units that modders have made so far and Im very tempted at using some. But then there is also the STW mod. My mod still works with that installed...a few changes and then it cant. Maybe STW mod wont be used much online so I should care less about that..but as you see there is always lots of things to worry about. Between a rock and a hard place heh

Edit:BTW Im a Mizu too

CBR

[CBR]

Oh yes about upgrades and unitcost:

Right now a valor upgrade cost only a tiny bit more than what a good (same stat increase as a valor upgrade) unit would cost compared to a weak unit. So right now its easy to pump up the weaker units. I have changed the unitcost formula to make most upgrading a lot less worth it. Still making tweaks to it as its not perfect..but thats another story.

You can download the excel sheets that CA used to calculate the costs. link

If you dont want to mess with that I can quickly calculate the unitcosts.


CBR

[Duke John]

CBR

Quote[/b] ]I have also encountered weird problems for people even when a mod is made as simple as possible to install.

Yes, making the installation foolproof is probably the hardest thing to do. Even when you think it can't be clearer people still come questions, I have seen that enough with the ME:TW beta: "ME:TW beta is only for the English version of MTW1.1 and only for custom battles."
And they come up with: "hello i have problems with campaign" or "your mod give an error with VI" or after alot of pulling out some background they give the answer that they installed over a translated installation.

However someone put a link a while ago about a freeware installer, and I am planning to use that. Still need to look into the details though.

Quote[/b] ]So right now the mod is working on the KISS principle

Que?

Quote[/b] ]If you dont want to mess with that I can quickly calculate the unitcosts.

I have the excel sheets sitting on my HD for quite a while. I never have the time to really dive into it, so if you want to help me with it, then it will very appreciated.

Cheers, Duke John

[TosaInu]

Hello Duke John,

Great unit graphics.
There are 10 new units, if I counted correctly and the culverin is skipped and each unit uses a new BIF. That means that the 10 custom BIF folders can be used -> this is an add-on mod and not a new install. More easy: the convenience will help to get it adopted.

http://www.clickteam.com/English/index.php it's possible to use registry parameters.
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....ickteam
This means that the install will be very easy too (provided it's English of course). There will be a few necessary loc files (German, Italian, French ..), you could simply ask gamers to submit their version and append the international descriptions to it. Perhaps some people will even translate text (though I guess there won't be much to translate). Pack them into another installer and you have a language pack for other versions.

[CBR]

KISS: Keep it Simple, Stupid.

Quote[/b] ]I have the excel sheets sitting on my HD for quite a while. I never have the time to really dive into it, so if you want to help me with it, then it will very appreciated.

Sure no problem. Just need some stats now



CBR

[Duke John]

It seems that the whole Mizu clan is here

Tosa
Actually I will merge the artillery crew and the handgunners together into one bif. Since they share the charge, fight and die animation I would only need to add 2 more animations for the crew; standing and walking (running will use the charging animation since the crew will be standing still for 99% of the battle).

Quote[/b] ]http://www.clickteam.com/English/index.php it's possible to use registry parameters.

That is the program I was talking about, thanks for pointing out that it actually works.

CBR
Great I will make a beta then that does not contain any new unitgraphics but it will give you the opportunity to work with all the units.

Cheers, Duke John

[TosaInu]

That's great Duke John, it can be made to utilise the 10 custom BIF folders then. This allows creation of an add-on mod, or am I overlooking something?

[Duke John]

No, you are correct. This mod can be regarded as a add-on. The first release will be without a campaign map though. It will feature 11 new units (with unitgraphics exclusively made for this mod ), historical campaigns and battles and it will be fully compatible with a standard MTW:VI installation.

Cheers, Duke John

[Puzz3D]

We know how to make corpses visible for new units, but new graphics would be required in DEAD256.tga to have them match the unit graphics and death animation. I'm not sure that anyone has tried to do that.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure that anyone has tried to do that.

Wellington has made a tool specifically for adding dead bodies. I have yet to try it, but he said it worked, so...

CBR
I am curious about your view on upgrading units:

Quote[/b] ]Im a strong believer in playing with no or as few upgrades as possible and you might not agree with that

I agree with this, since we intent to give units a certain role on the battlefield and it would a waste of hard work if that role would become obselete because another upgraded unit is cheaper and better.
But that does mean that units should be viable at valour 0 or 1. What is your opinion of the starting morale? Morale 6 for standard infantry, 8/10 for MAA and cav, 2/4 for missile?

I think morale 6 is regarded as the minimum for combat units. A single valour upgrade will make standard infantry very reliable (especially because of their large size). 3 upgrades should be so horrendeously expensive that is not worth the florins.

Cheers, Duke John

[CBR]

Morale is of course a matter of taste: how much attritional v maneuver warfare do you want.

And also depends on how the attack value is compared to the defense value. An example is spears as they can fight for a long time even with lower morale because of their high defense value...as long as they dont fight units that have very high combat power compared to the spears. Spear morale does feel low when they face swords that has on valor more.

In the Community mod I have given all units +2 morale and a morale range of 2-10 works fine there. So if you give units the morale 6-10 you mentioned I dont think they need more. I would start with 4 for lower quality 100 men units and 8 or 10 for best units..your billmen have rankbonus so it gives them more defense, but it depends on the base combat stats you give them.

If a missile unit is not meant for any fighting it doesnt need that high morale. But if you want to make sure they only run after taking heavy losses and/or being attacked then 2-4 should do the trick.


CBR

[Duke John]

Ok, I have finished making a beta version of the Wars of the Roses expansion. The campaign will crash, but all the units are in for custom and mp battles. I have added temporary unitgraphics that I made some months ago. They will all be replaced with new and better versions so don't worry about them.

I have made some stats, but they are in no sense definitive. I am not that good at making them up, but they should provide a good clue on how the units should compare to each other. I did some tests though and the units did seem to work reasonably. Pikes can hold and win in the beginning but lose in the end, regular longbows and handguns were decimated and fled quickly once charged by the prickers. Even on valour 0 they were all dependable on their own task.

Puzz3D and CBR
Do you have some sparetime to playtest and adjust the stats? If you do, then I will upload the beta and give you the url via PM (because of limited bandwith I don't want to make it public). I am specifically asking you since you're the only ones who responded here and because I feel that you both have enough knowledge and experience to make it balanced.

Cheers, Duke John

[CBR]

Yeah sure just send the url. Maybe we can run some battles later today. What florin level are you aiming at?


CBR

[Duke John]

I am thinking of 10k for valour 0.

I don't have time today to play games, so have fun

URL coming via PM,
Duke John

Edit: it's 10MB btw, so it may take a while.

[Puzz3D]

I can try it with CBR tonight. I'll be online after 21:00 gmt.

[andy119]

Looks great i want an english civil war mod aswell thatd be gr8:)

[Duke John]

I'll have time tomorrow to be online. Hopefully we will get to play some games, I'll be in the foyer around 19:00 GMT, probably sooner.

Puzz3D
Check your messagebox, I've sent you the url.

Cheers, Duke John

Edit: Oh, and what are your online names?

[Puzz3D]

Look for MizuCBR and MizuYuuki.

[CBR]

Just a few comments on the units:

You mentioned changing turning ability but nothing has been changed so far..or maybe you just wanted to wait with that?

60/100 men longbows: Even though the 60 men longbows have armour and better melee I would still consider them to be too small. You get more firepower out of the 100 men units and firepower is the main thing for such a unittype...especially with longrange longbows that will reduce skirmishing in the game. The 60 men unit will find itself at a disadvantage IMO

Pikemen/Billmen: Now I know you talked about different turning ability. But what is the exact role of pikemen? If they are supposed to be worse at turning they have to have some kind of advantage somewhere else. From the tests I have seen so far they will eventually lose against billmen. All they have right now is the advantage of negating a cavalry charge but cavalry will not play that big a role in this mod. If what they can now is what you intend then they definitely need to be cheaper than Billmen.


CBR

[Duke John]

I had some games with CBR, and we concluded this:

Morale
There was no need to upgrade units for the sake of morale. I believe that both of us didn't upgrade any units and they all performed as you would expected. If people would play with valour 1 then the game would drag for very long.

Handguns
Not worth buying, the longbows outperform them. I put them in mostly for historical battles, but we may try to make more viable by dropping the cost.

Billmen
Changed to 80 men to make them more different from the pikes. Change turning rate.

Pikes
Improve defense, at the moment they will lose versus bills, which should be more of a draw. Their only advantage is versus cav and they don't play a big role in this mod. A bit better at holding the line. Change turning rate.

Halberdiers
At the moment not very good, but when the bills and pikes have a slower turning rate the halberdiers will be better at adapting to new situations. No changes.

Squires/Knights
They are not the close combat monsters that you expect them to be. +1 att and def.

Mounted MAA
Charge of 8 to give them more punch on the charge.

Prickers
One of the most interesting units in my opinion. You'll will need them to pursue routed units. But they also excell at mowing down longbows. To balance this unit it performs terribly versus infantry and this combination works good enough at the moment.

Longbows
Nothing wrong with this unit.

Armoured longbows
60 men are too few to be a good choice versus the regular longbows. They will get 80 men.

It's coming along nicely.

Cheers, Duke John

[Duke John]

CBR and Puzz3D
Download these edited stats to avoid version conflicts in MP. Changing the MAX TURNSPEED didn't seem to change much, but we shall see ingame.

Hmmm, perhaps this thread should be moved to the Dungeon...

Cheers, Duke John

[Rob The Bastard]

Hey no problem :)

[Rob The Bastard]

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi, Duke John

Relating to your WotR MOD you can bet that I will play it, specially since it performs as an add-on and you are working on an SP campaign.

You are correct in saying that new unit graphics attract attention to MODs, although lots of times a rebalancing of the game or a more historically accurate tweak is enough for me. BTW, your graphics are EXCELENT

Another plus that you mentioned, is that it is atractive having a different period to play. And that is really appealing for me.

Looking forward to seeing the final version. Good luck

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Hope we can enjoy the beauty of your units once again soon.Looking forward to this one and i like the idea of an add-on.

CZoF

[Lord Of Storms]

Moved to the new Mod development forum area currently called Edit3, you may follow this topic there. thank you LOS