Wars of the Roses Expansion

[KyodaiSteeleye]

PS: I guess if you wanted to be historically accurate, you could have the starting positions of the two main factions correspond to their historical noble family supporters - although this could be problematical, as many of them switched sides more than once over the period

D.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I'd change leicester to the midlands, or call it east midlands and change stafford to the west midlands

[dclare4]

Well you probably won't want to go as far as I wanted to do with the WotR mod I planned to do before. That being said, I think that you should base it on Titles (and the land areas they are attached to) rather than being so married to the physical map. The wars, as far as I understand them, were more about power and position and being in the position to influence whichever Plantagenet was on the throne rather than about capturing land - they couldn't hold the land legally anyway (though they could raid and chevauchee) as it was through Parliament and the orders of the king (writs of attainder) that land and titles were transferred. Similarly I would actually suggest that you dispense with the 'Lancaster' and 'York' sides and make it a battle between noble factions like in the Kingmaker game. If you can tweak the Grand Campaign goals then you could make the ultimate objective the construction of a CATHEDRAL w/c could symbolize becoming the 'kingmaker' or the power behind the throne as aspired to by the major players like Beaufort of Somerset, Neville of Warwick, Wydeville and Percy (from an earlier time).

No offense but the map looks kinda like the one in the new Paradox game, Crusader Kings. I would suggest that:

1. subdivide Yorkshire and Durham if possible to give place for places like Durham (of the Prince Bishops), Richmond, Raby (of the Nevilles), Wakefield and Sandal (of York), and the places of the Yorkshire supporters of Lancaster.
2. make London a single 'county' in itself.
3. Represent the major Archbishoprics of Canterbury and York and the bishoprics of Carlisle, Durham, Winchester, Ely and Norwich.
4. Include as much as possible the major Earldoms and battle locations.
5. If possible separate the major Welsh castles of Caernarvon, Harlech and Beaumaris (or you could make a 'jump map' if you can figure out how to do it - a player has to conquer the Anglesey area and only from there can he attack the individual castles - to emphasize the strength and difficulty of sieging the Welsh castles. Would suggest similar treatment with the ff castles/towns:

London
Coventry
Pontefract
Kenilworth
Carisbrooke
Dover
Corfe
Berwick
Bamburgh
Roxburgh

6. Leicester should contain a whole bunch of places including Northampton, the manors of the Hollands and Wydevilles as well as Fotheringhay. Also, try to include the Isle of Ely (where your Bedford is) w/c is actually a highly defensible island cathedral. I would also suggest making most places generally indefensible and fortress construction long and expensive and not a priority with the AI w/c will increase the value of those places historically fortified as listed above. The wars were not much about sieges and castles as they were about pitched battles and intrigue.

7. The Northern Marches and Western Marches were next to the Scottish Border. The area you have in your map is equivalent to the Welsh March, Powys and Gwent where the great lords of BOTH SIDES had tons of manors and castles.

8. One major turn off that made me abandon the mod was the criminally poor diplomatic rules. I was dreaming of seeing an army of allied lords each with his own heraldic colours and shields but the poor diplomatic rules preclude this. If you can find a way around this shortcoming more power to you If not, I would suggest that you stick to the major players - Lancaster, York, Percy, Neville - the others were generally subsumed into the side they picked (though it would be so much more fun to have all these shifting alliances) and the major lords didn't change sides too much (except for maybe Percy and Buckingham).

9. I would suggest you represent a small part of Eastern Ireland (as much of Ireland as possible actually) as this was a Yorkist stronghold as well as Calais, one province for France in general, one for Norway and one for the Low Countries. Actually France (in the form of the 'Great Spider' Louis) generally supported Lancaster in the wars with money and mercenaries and also because its rival Burgundy supported York (Margaret Plantagenet, daughter of the Duke of York, was married to Charles of Burgundy), while the burghers of the Low Countries generally supported York as vassals of Burgundy and because Edward IV encouraged trade with them. These places (France and probably Scotland for Lancaster; Burgundy, Low Countries, Ireland for York) are almost like safehouses where they can flee when things are turned around.

Regards,
Clare

[Duke John]

No castles? Guess again
I did some testing and apparently the games requires you to have a castle before you can train troops. This is a major setback as this will result in a siegebattle for everyprovince as the AI always retreats into the castle.

Subdividing the map
While I am able to do this, I really don't have any motivation to do this. Also I think that because of the small timespan the campaign is better with lesser regions.

Political intrigue
Also for me one of the attracting points of the WotR are the different families who fought for their own goals. More factions would touch this aspect very lightly as the diplomatic game is very limited and flawed. I won't change the GA system since then the mod wouldn't be an expansion anymore. Also it wouldn't work 100% as the GA only go up to 1450 (or whatever the end of the Late campaign is).

Do we need really want a campaign?
I am not so sure anymore wether the WotR can be done good enough. Of course I can do it with all kind of shortcomings and illusions that you have to pretend, but I have the opinion that I do it well or not. The castle thing is really bothering me as seiges are hindering incredibly. So for the coming time I will the campaign as it is and get back to fixing the tactical part and focus on making historical battles.

And perhaps we can make an online campaign where some enthusiastics each get assigned a duchy or something and we will have online battles and some political backstabbing on a special WotR forum. Or perhaps just recreating all the battles fought during the WotR. Much easier and we can do that with 6 people.

For me the campaign was always a bit of an extra just to have a story around the battles. The battles are what I am primarily interested in, so if we can get a group together and recreate all the battles I will be a very happy person

Cheers, Duke John

[Brianbbj]

Duke John.


Please release your unit package so i can have some Custom battles

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Hi DukeJohn.

Considering the hastle involved, and the fact that the MTW strategic game doesn't really lend itself very well to the period, i would be inclined to agree - it will take you a long time to implement the strategy game and you may not be able to make it that great at the end of the day. So concentrate on the MP and historical battle bits - they'll be the most fun anyway.

If we could organise a WoTR multiplayer scenario, that would be great, with each player taking on a historical family and lining up on a lancastrian or yorkist side. Would you be up for that Clare? - you seem quite into the period.

[Nomad]

Sounds like WofTR has been shelved from the last few posts. A sad moment indeed. Was really looking forward to fighting a campaign on a detailed England map. Although the map does/did need a little ammending. Derby is a midlands county. What you have as Derby (Pec Saetum in Viking Invasion) is the larger part of what should be the Palitanate of Lancaster. Kingamker as mentioned earlier is a good source for a game design. But not for mapmaking.
In reference to some of your listed problems. If you wanted to stop tech tree development you could just increase the set times on building constuction. Its also possible to mod AI behaviour to prevent it/or at least make it less likely to start a siege. At least I've read you can make it more likely. So assume to reverse can be done. I think only multiplayer and muliple factions would allow you to create the double dealing, backstabbing spirit of time.
But if two factions is the best option, maybe if units were all, region specific with a bit of appropriate heraldry somewhere you could simulate factions for single player. Bribery could be the tool to win these provinces/factions over, rather than unrealistic conquest. You could make most provinces rebellious to allow lots of double dealing and side changing.
OK these suggestions might be a bit naive, but those graphics were enough for me to want to have a go. However your the man, and you know how this all works more than I do. But maybe, if you've abondoned ship they could be used to develop an UltimateMTW or an Early Renaissance mod using the existing campaign map.

[Ypoknons]

My good Nomad, I think Duke John's main focus in this mod has always been battles, especially multiplayer battles. The fact that he has had difficulties with the single player components is by no means getting the mod shelved.

[Duke John]

The mod is NOT shelved

As Ypoknons correctly said, my main focus is on the battles. I think that the AI is not capable enough to provide me with enough challenge while acting even vaguely historical. It cannot build techtrees or build up decent armies. I would accept that if I could make the campaign even vaguely historical, but now even that is not possible as it will be just a row of sieges, and that clashes heavily with the short period (30 years or so) as sieges take alot of time in MTW.

I saw the campaign as something extra, but my main interest lies with recreating the historical battles and after that just playing battles, hopefully with other people online.

I think that there is enough interest by some people to start up a little group that play a MP-campaign, so that the battles are connected to each other. If we then adhere to some guidelines on the use of medieval tactics then we can truly relive that interesting period. And in my eyes much better than possible with a SP campaign.

Cheers, Duke John

[dclare4]

Yes I am very much into the period ever since I played Kingmaker, heck actually ever since I read Richard III (Shakespeare) - still can recite the opening speech by heart. I'm a pretty devoted Ricardian (someone who doesn't believe R3 was all that bad) particularly after reading Tey and Tom Costain's history of the Plantagenets. So yes I'm terribly interested in the period and everytime a medieval game comes along I keep hoping it's going to do the wars justice - Kingmaker was superb for its time but it cut too many historical corners. There's an excellent game going on but it's a play-by-mail thing and I think it's only taking place in England but it's really got the details and role playing down.

I suffered a cataclysmic hard drive crash unfortunately and I fear all my WotR modding for MTW VI went with it - was focusing more on the mechanics in-game rather than the graphics w/c I have no gift for, including names and such. One thing I'm experimenting with is not being too hung up on military units - why can't we have 'armed mobs' or 'highwaymen' or 'knight errants' or even 'lawyers' to deliver writs of attainder. Anyways, if you ever have a question I'll try and help out.

I think that your idea for not doing a strategic maneuver campaign may just work. Focus on the graphics, the mechanics, the battles and the rest will come. I think the biggest hurdle to any MTW mod is the graphics - I've got tons of great ideas that will never happen because I just have no talent for animating soldier graphics - so once that's done the mod can just grow naturally :)

Unfortunately I've got no multiplayer capability - my game computer isn't connected to the internet - but I can help with research and such.

Best regards,
Clare

[dclare4]

By the way,

Check out the ff:

http://www.richard111.com/roses.htm

If you need help with the names for your 'factions' look for the lance&longbow's freezywater flag sheets or check out any decent geneology page on the various noble families - you'll need a bit of familiarization to cross reference them all but the freezywater document is a good starting point.

Also:

http://freespace.virgin.net/sheldon....s/nobsofe.html

This is from the excellent Rosewar page w/c will take you a LONG way in familiarizing yourself with the period if you haven't already seen it :)

Best of luck,
Clare

[alexmonkey]

hello again,

i have allready found out some information about the war of the roses for you, ill pm or post it on here later on.~:p

i have a little disster , i just uninstalled MTW and then tried to install it again, but when i insrted the cd into the drive , it smashed it into pieces and it spat out the remains . is it possible to buy like the cds alone somewhere?

help me

alex

[Angelnessuno]

hi duke john i had 2 question for you:
-is the next realase near or not(i can't wait)?
-mtw is so inaccurate can i suggest you to use your new units to change the inaccurate medieval total war units
for example the gotic foot knight can be changed with your elite man -at-arm
-what do you think about it?
-i can't wait ...i would test your new units please
post them somewhere please
you are great
i would be very glad

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Duke if you want any help in play testing the different units, just ask.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]-mtw is so inaccurate can i suggest you to use your new units to change the inaccurate medieval total war units
for example the gotic foot knight can be changed with your elite man -at-arm

I won't change the original game in any way as that would imcompatibility for MP. With my current setup the mod allows full playabability of all other periods without any changes. It does not work well with other mods though.

Quote[/b] ]you are great

No, I am just tall and skinny

Quote[/b] ]-is the next realase near or not(i can't wait)?

Just read on

Quote[/b] ]Duke if you want any help in play testing the different units, just ask.

That is a coincidence I was just thinking of releasing the mod in its current state, I have finished:
- 7 BIFs; Knights, Squires, Billmen, Armoured Billmen, Longbows, Armoured Longbows, Pikemen.
- Coloured shields and flags for the factions (so without emblems).

I want to add:
- Historical battles with new maps.
- Emblems for the factions.
- 3 more BIFs: Mounted Men-at-arms, Prickers and Handgunners.

Now let me first sort out all the files and I will upload it shortly. Watch this space and the Dungeon News closely Once released I hope to see other fans of this period online

Cheers, Duke John

[Brianbbj]

i think you should consider making this a double mod, where you also include the English Civil War, why want this is becouse i know that if you make it Duke John, then it would be good.

know that is somehow out of topic, but i just had to said it.

[Nomad]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ May 08 2004,20:24)]That is a coincidence I was just thinking of releasing the mod in its current state, I have finished:
- 7 BIFs; Knights, Squires, Billmen, Armoured Billmen, Longbows, Armoured Longbows, Pikemen.
- Coloured shields and flags for the factions (so without emblems).

I want to add:
- Historical battles with new maps.
- Emblems for the factions.
- 3 more BIFs: Mounted Men-at-arms, Prickers and Handgunners.

What a magnaminous Dude,
Many thanks DJ.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]i think you should consider making this a double mod, where you also include the English Civil War

No, I disagree. The Wars of the Roses were in my eyes one of the last medieval wars. I am not interested in the period after 1500. When you look at the units during the civil war and during the WotR, then there is a big difference and so I would need to create a whole lot more BIFs and that of a period I do not like. So no.

Cheers, Duke John

[SpetzNatz]

Duke John.
May I ask you for some favour? I like your units and I want to learn 3D moddeling, could you tell me what tool do you use for it, and send me some sample units to open and test it? I'm totally confused (as everyone who is trying something new) and it could really help. Thank you. And my e-mail is: v.pelcak@post.cz

[Duke John]

SpetzNatz, I can't just explain how to make new unitgraphics. I am making a guide and you might want to see Chapter 6 about the programs needed to model. Then follow tutorials for your program and start simple, as you grow more accustomed to the program it will be a small leap to importing your renderings to MTW.

I will not send you my models as they are the source files. I have worked very hard on them and while I spread the BIFs freely for use by others I would hate to see my models being used others and forgetting to credit me. I hope you understand.

Duke John

[SpetzNatz]

I expected this. People are often very ungrateful and reckless, so there's no wonder that you expect it from me. Sorry to bother you.

Last question.
Could you tell me how to convert pictures to bif? I use Readbif and 8-bit BMP and it produces something very terrible. I've also tried those tools from CA with TGA format, but with the same results.

Thank you.

[dclare4]

Just off the cuff:

Badges...

Yorkist - Sun in Splendour
Richard III - White Boar
Beaufort - Portcullis
Vere - De Vere Star OR Blue Boar
Henry of Richmond - Red Dragon of Wales
Neville - Bear and Ragged Staff
Stafford - Stafford Knot or the Silver Swan Badge

best regards,
Clare

[Duke John]

I mainly use the Osprey books for reference as they are much more visually oriented. Also the library in my city is very limited on the Wars of the Roses so I might not have the recources that you have. But these are the badges that I found and will probably use:

Somerset: white/blue per fess, yellow portcullis.
Edward IV: blue/red per fess, white rose with yellow streams coming behind from it, might be sun in splendour
Richard III: blue/red per fess, white boar, white roses, yellow detailing
Norfolk: red, white lion passant
Oxford: red, blue boar
Dorset: white/black chevron, black sallets
Warwick: red, 3 white ragged staffs
Gloucester: red/blue per fess, white boar
Northumberland: yellow/tawney, blue lion passant
Prince of Wales: black/red per fess, 3 white ostrich feathers
Hastings: blue, black bull with crown around neck
Henry VII: argent/vert per fess, red dragon
Henry VI: white/blue per fess, white antilope with crown around neck and chain

[Nomad]

Hey DJ,
Did you decide against an early release of the WoTR stuff then. Or are you just teasing us.

[Duke John]

Well, shoot me for being a perfectionist

I was indeed planning to upload the stuff, but then I got sucked into modding again and now I have most of the faction emblems finished (so why not do all of them), I finally did a new uniticon (and it came out pretty perfect, so why not do all of them) and then there are some glitches with the graphics (which are easily fixed, so why not do them before releasing the beta?)...
So that means that the first release is a little bit postponed. I am still not planning to include cavalry as I want the games to focus around infantry. We'll just have to play on small maps to avoid long marches.

One question for you Nomad: How big of a fan are you of this period? If a lot, then check your PM inbox

Have fun,
Duke John

[Nomad]

[Efrem Da King]

YAY its aboot time someone made one of these. Wars of the Roses is by far my fav war



If I can be of any help just say.

[TonkaToys]

DJ,

we were talking about using my multi-player campaign system for your WotR mod... I've posted a reply in The Alchemists Lab / Multiplayer Campaign.

I'll try to keep all future updates in there.

[Duke John]

[]



Wars of the Roses BETA version 0.1 released

The mod isn't finished yet and you will probably notice some glitches, but my progress is halting and I hope that feedback from the fans of this period will inspire me. So read on and play some games

Installation
Follow the steps below to install WotR beta 0.1:- Download the WotR beta v0.1 from this location
- Copy the content of the ZIP into your M:TW installation folder.[/list]The mod only works if you have the following:- Medieval: Total War + Viking Invasion expansion installed
- English version
- No other mods installed.[/list]Gameplay
Battles during the Wars of the Roses were mostly between large bodies of infantry. Cavalry played a very limited part as the longbow and the various staff weapons made mounted units ineffective.

Battles mostly began with a missile war. Since both sides had the ability to field longbows it they cancelled each other out. At a certain time the infantry would no longer stand the barrage of missiles and then the lines would move forward.

There are 4 different troop types: Men-at-Arms (very effective but few in numbers), Retinue troops (flexible and reasonably strong), Shire troops (many in numbers but not as trained as the Retinue troops) and Mercenaries (various troop types that were hired from the mainland).

Playtesting
Unitcosts and stats are not 100% balanced yet. When you decide to help me balance the stats then always play with no upgrades, be it valour, weapons or armour. The quickest way to destroy balance is by upgrading your units.

What holds the future?
The current version needs the following to be complete:
- Names for the commanders
- Flags and shields for various factions
- Icons for several units

And I will also add the following:
- 3 more BIFs, that means 3 more units. At the moment I am thinking of Mounted Men-at-Arms, Handgunners and Culverins.
- More factions so that we are able to recreate all historical battles with the right commanders.
- Maps of the famous battle sites
- Historical Battles/Campaigns

To complete the experience I am also working on a Wars of the Roses website that gives more background to the commanders, battles and units. That site will probably also feature multi-player campaigns consisting of linked battles.

Last words
I would appreciate any feedback on this mod, be it balance suggestions, a list of names or maps, it will probably mean that this mod only gets better

Have fun,
Duke John

[/]

[Eastside Character]

Great news Duke John Downloaded.

Regards,
EC