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Thread: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

  1. #31
    Member Member Oleander Ardens's Avatar
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    The pics look incredibly well, just like the ones of HTW, which isn't on my Comp yet due to the painfully slow connection where I am right now living

    But it won't take long to get a better one and HTW

    Cheers

    OA
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  2. #32
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    The bigger map you were talking about, will it be in the final release that the Count was talking about?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
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  3. #33

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    Kom quote on top of this page:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Apparently the Bronze Age TW has captivated many of you.
    Apart from the new map that when it will be ready it will be released in the Mapping Library Project thread, it will have a number of new units.

    The Map it self will initially be ready for HTW use but with only a few units and buildings so an experienced moder can make an HTW add-on with it. Then again I might do it while making the Bronze Age TW.



    No not in this final release,details here are for a Bronze Age mod that needs the new map.If the RTW engine is not mod-friendly enough the MTW engine will be used,but i hope the RTW engine can be used of course,all speculation now we will just wait and see...and play RTW first

    CZoF




  4. #34
    Junior Patron Member dessa14's Avatar
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    how are you going to control the many tech trees required.
    and the dorian invasion.

    you will need at least four tech trees.

    Myceanean
    Minion
    Egyptian
    and Hittite

    you could easily expand that by adding Dorian.
    you could also add an etruscan and some of the northern barbaric tribes.
    thanks,
    dessa
    {LORE}
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  5. #35

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    "It will start at 3000BC, pass to the High period at 2000BC in Late at 1100 and end at 800BC. This will fairly connect it to HTW. This coincides with the rise and fall of the Mycenaean’s. In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area, in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece, plus they all struggle for sea trade roots to Egypt and the Middle East. At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots. They go to war with Hittite Empire that was declining. Suddenly in about 1200BC they disappear while the social structure is crumbling."

    These years are a bit odd... I'm guessing your planning three seperate campaigns, that stretch over this period, because obviously everyone would win the game before they ever got the the "late" period in this way.

    And about the Mycenaean stuff...

    "In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area"

    In 3000 BC, Mycenae, well, we didn't even know if it was there. All that was in Greece at this time were the earliest walled citadels, which were still small communities by Egypts or Sumer's standards.

    "in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece"

    Not true, really. Mycenae didn't rise to power until about the 17th century BC. In 2,000, it would have been small, and unimportant. Knossos on Crete wasn't even powerful at this time. The 'Minoan' and 'Mycenaean' powers wouldn't come about until about 1700 BC to 1600 BC.

    "At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots."

    I think you're trying to say about 1,300 BC ** :\ **, because you mention it's collapse in about 1,200, which is, of course, correct...

    "The units you are looking here are Greek units of the early and high period. The Octaspis is the pinnacle of the Mycenaean war engineering. The old tower shield was substituted by a new type. The 8-shaped shied permitted the better use of the pike but also its shape allowed it to be used for shuffling and opening britches in the enemy formation thus exposing the enemy and making them vulnerable to attack."

    This is, of course, controversial... Some isn't though. The Figure-of-eight shield was used at the same time as the Tower shield, and they both becamse popular *and were created* in about 1700 BC, or so, and fell out of use in about 1350 BC or so. Smaller circle and crescent shields took their place, as did the javelin as the main Mycenaean weapon, instead of long spears. The use of the Figure-of-Eight shield would go well with long spears, or the long, large-ribbed swords of the early Mycenaean times.

    Later, the swords would change into those of central European origin. Short, slashing and hacking weapons were used, the most popular of these being what is know as the "Type II" swords from Kallithea. Weapons through the Mycenaean era changed so much during your game period, that having them evolve would be rather difficult...

    Anyway, on to why I'm here. I was made aware of this mod by princejohn while chatting over at the .Com forums. I've been interested in making a Bronze Age MOD myself, but wish to place it primarily in the Last Citadel Age in Greece (1450 BC to 1150 or so). I have a lot of faction and unit idea's, but I'm not really a modder, and well, that's why I'm here.

    I was interested if you guys would be either willing to incorperate some of my units (mainly Achaean or Trojan, but I also know lots about Egyptian, Hittite, and Shardan arms and armor!) in your MOD. I'd be extremely pleased to help, and to have some of my contributions allowed, and not to mention very honored!

    To see what I've gotten put together in literally the last 5 days, check this out!

    http://s4.invisionfree.com/AOH/

    Lemme' know what you guys think! (The unit descriptions is the main deal, and just a taste of what I want to be able to do!)

    Thanks!

    -Gregory-

    *By the way, I didn't know I was a Jr. Member just because I had an account on the old forums, so I posted a thread in the alchemist's lab for you guys to 'check out'... Don't mind that:D*

  6. #36
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Gregorius,

    I have noted what you say and I will come back to you some time later including your help offer, but don't hold your breath till then ... free time problems ... probably in the weekend.

    But some things to note.
    1. The period is BIG ... OK it lasts for ~2000 moves I don't expect anyone to finish it. But trust me you will not have any easy time grabbing areas and moving especially in the first period. Even against rebel factions.

    2. Greeks did not appear in the peninsula one day they were there since ~5000BC (that is the first stone age settlement in the area) Minoans were big in ~2000BC and remained a force to be reckoned with till ~1200BC. Mycenaeans had a tougher root to take and more enemies (proven by the heavy fortifications). Pelasgians in Cycads also had an easier path and they were in there prime for a long time till the Destruction of Thera in ~1200BC.

    3. Most of the things we know are from contemporary myths and people have a great time mixing them an interpreting them as they like.

    4. I might have made thing larger that what they were in there Historical presence - poetic freedom - but they are not far from true. And Yes the Greek kingdoms were not of the Slender of those of Summer and the like till the ~2000BC but then they really took off. Control of the Sea lanes was in there hands for many years and this was the cause of the Trojan war that most probably ended both the declining Hittite empire and Mycenaean one.

    5. Finally the tower shield was use for a long time but was abandoned for the 8-shield when it became available. 8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part. It sow wide spread use in the Mycenean and main land armies but was outdated by the time of Troy and an armoured "hoplitic type" shield was adopted by the most advanced city states.

    Please don’t take my words offensively ... they some times come out that way but I hate all the things that have people done to this period of history. There are more misconceptions in this period than the some of all other period added together. And thanks to Hollywood (Troy) we now know we Greeks come from the Vikings.

    P.S.
    This mod most probably will remain a MTW VI mod at least not until we have the tools to port it in to RTW.

  7. #37

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    "Finally the tower shield was use for a long time but was abandoned for the 8-shield when it became available. 8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part. It sow wide spread use in the Mycenean and main land armies but was outdated by the time of Troy and an armoured "hoplitic type" shield was adopted by the most advanced city states"

    I'm not some kind of fool... Don't worry. Troy was Terrible. I'm the type of guy who sits around reading Peter Connolly, Osprey Military series books, and anything about Ancient Greece and it's warfare I can get my hands on. It is a well known fact that tower shields are depicted on vases and frescos in Pylos and from other regions of Achaea up until almost the exact same time that Figure-of-eight shields stopped being show, as well.

    I'd really like to see your sources, because it's nonsense to say that the figure of eight type procceeded the Tower:D. I'm being quite serious, and can state several credible sources, if you wish it to come to that...

    In fact, here's a quick one: The famous lion Hunt Dagger from Mycenae. It depicts TWO figure-of-eight shields being used and TWO Tower shields being used. This is in the exact same place and time, and dates from approximately 1,400 BC.

    http://www.ou.edu/finearts/art/ahi49...slides/154.jpg
    (I'm sure you've seen it before, but here's for anyone who hasn't!)

    Another would be the famous Fresco from Thera, which depicts 3-4 Tower shields being used, within two hundred years before this same time. The figure-of-eight was likely used at this exact same era (although probably not on Thera), and both were out of fashion within 300 more years of this time. I can't find a picture of this one online, at the moment, although I've seen a few. My PC is goin' terribly slow, so I'm going to say I'm unsuccessful in find it now:\

    Back to the shield development...

    The figure of eight wasy popular, as you said, throughout Achaea, although we have limited sources to it's use in combat, etc... It was outdated by 1300 BC, and as you stated, modern shields took over. These, although we know little about them, mainly came in the form of well-developed, large pelta, like those later to be used by peltasts of Hellenistic Greece. Judging by the example from Kalizori, we can see that they had Bronze rims and uniquely styled Bronze Bosses, probably of Northern Influence.

    I'm just tryin' to get the point across here about the Figure-of-Eight, because it seems as though you're a bit confused as to whether it was used at the time the Tower shields were, which I can guarentee you, and I'll bet my life on it and every souce I've ever heard it in, that it was...

    As for this...

    "Greeks did not appear in the peninsula one day they were there since ~5000BC (that is the first stone age settlement in the area) Minoans were big in ~2000BC and remained a force to be reckoned with till ~1200BC. Mycenaeans had a tougher root to take and more enemies (proven by the heavy fortifications). Pelasgians in Cycads also had an easier path and they were in there prime for a long time till the Destruction of Thera in ~1200BC."

    That's all correct. The people had been there for a long time, and as I stated, they were merely small farming communities. The first Citadels arose in Crete about 3,200 BC, and then about 3,000 BC in Mycenae. But they were small powers. Crete and Mycenae didn't gain a LOT of influence over Greece until about... at least 1,700 BC, as I stated before (Not arguing with you, just goin' into more detail).

    I'll also note that Thera was in fact destroyed by a volcanic eruption, and although until recently the date of this disaster was disputed, recent archealogical and scientific assumptions put it at 1600 BC, which is before what you said (1,200 BC).

    And to this: "I have noted what you say and I will come back to you some time later including your help offer, but don't hold your breath till then ... free time problems ... probably in the weekend."

    Okay, thanks for lookin' into it all;D

    Adios!

    -Gregory-

    (EDIT:

    "8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part."

    I believe you're actually talking about two rather different shields. One is like that shown on the Egyptian reliefs of the fights with the Sea-peoples, while the other is the Mycenaean type, which is more like an "8". That'd be made from wicker and multiple layers of cowhide, like you suggested, and it would also have a long, Bronze boss running across the front. The other one, well, we don't know much about it! It did have a bronze rim, if that's what you're talking about, but we don't know if it really had full bronze-facings, that's just artists conceptions, etc...
    Last edited by Gregorius0202; 08-05-2004 at 16:54. Reason: additional information

  8. #38
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    "I'd really like to see your sources, because it's nonsense to say that the figure of eight type procceeded the Tower:D. I'm being quite serious, and can state several credible sources, if you wish it to come to that..."

    Aaa .... sorry ... I did not say it proceeded it ... it outclassed it and it was built and used later. I am sure some used the tower type shield for a long time. Weapons were hard to get in those days and since in Greece most armies were civic if your father had one you would keep it! But at the end I am sure the tower shield was phased out at least in the mainland.

    As far as depictions and wall paintings remember many had a ceremonial character so they might depict some time in the past too.

    The later 8-sheild might be close the Boeotian type not as large. I think Homer refers to Grater Ajacs (Greek Eas (Aias) Telamonios) that has an 8-sheild covered with Bronze but I am not 100% on that.

    For Thera I think the island was known as Strongily at those days or Archaeologists named it that way. It actually reads round or circle since the island looked as it had a round shape with the volcano as the centre. Now days only the west part remains Is the date 1600BC more certain? If yes then the transition point of 2000BC looks better. (compromises have to be made. Remember this is a simulation we can get as close as the engine permits us to.)

    Can you send me your e-mail?

  9. #39

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Hey, glad we've reached points on this shield thing. I agree with all of your statements *yay!* Yeah, the one I was talking about that was shown on the Egyptian reliefs is the one similar to the Boeotian, but larger, possibly (used by the Sea-peoples).

    Anyway, For Thera, looking back, between 1550-1500 would be a more accurate date for that. I REALLY think a good transition date would be about 1550 BC, but that would make either the first or second ages too long, and that one too short. I say this because this is when the Hittites, Minoans, Mycenaeans, Egyptians, and Babylonians began having their big wars with eachother and coming into contact (1550 something being the first recorded battle ever between the Babylonians and I believe the Canaanites).

    My email is wisgliebau@yahoo.com *I've also been meaning to talk to you about a map making endevour, so, mention that in any email you send, if you remember, so I don't forget to mention it, if you would, please;)*

    Adios!

    -Gregory-

  10. #40
    Member Member lonewolf371's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    I too was very impressed with the original HTW, it just seems to get better and better! With the Mycenaeans added in, will you guys be adding in a Troy faction/historical campaign? I can understand if that might be difficult due to lack of complex historical sources, but it still might be interesting to see a Troy vs. Mycenaeans conflict.

  11. #41

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Flip, looking through some of the images on the first page, I noticed that you had one posted with cavalry in the background. This may have been charioteers, because I could only see the front. It's near the bottom. I was wondering if you were going to incorperate cavalry, and if so, I'd be interested in seeing any references to chariotless warriors on horseback from the era, because I've actually been searching for such information myself, to no avail...

    Lemme' know if you've got any sources I can use on that bit

    Thanks!

    -Gregory-

  12. #42
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    I have Ospreys Ancient Middle Eastern Armies
    Techtrees you'll need are

    Early Bronze (3000 B.C.)

    Sumerians (united under Ur)
    Egyptians (divided, then united into the Old Kingdom, then civil wars, and then Middle Kingdom)
    Assyrians (like the Mongols in MTW)
    Canaanite empire (from Ebla)
    Amorites (invaders before 2nd period)
    Akkadians (sematic invaders)

    At this time there were massive migrations of sematic peoples from the East.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  13. #43

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    How is that book? I just ordered it a couple of weeks ago with 5 other Osprey military series books, but because of Amazon availability, I won't get them for a month or so...

    You also wouldn't need different technology trees for each faction. Having different architecture may be important, but the buildings would be relatively the same. An example of a change may be that in the late age, the Assyrians or Hittites may be able to skip some type of 'armory' and begin producing iron weapons before anyone else, if not be the only ones in the game to have it. Other than stuff like that, I'd say that it being like Medieval, with practically the same 'technology trees' for each culture, would make gameplay a LOT easier to balance.

    My two cents on that whole thing...

    -Gregory-

  14. #44
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Pretty good book, got mine from the library.

    2000 B.C.
    Hittites grow stronger, strongest nation in Central and Asia Minor.
    Amorties establish "old" Bablyonian Empire.
    Hurrians (biblical Hurites) migrate south into the northern part of Tirgris and Euprates, and establish Mitanni.
    Egypt and Assyria both expand, the first into Nubia/Sudan and Syria, the latter to form the Old Kingdom.
    Hammurabi subjegates the Old Assyrians, Syria, and Elamites (Persian Gulf Iran, near Susa)
    Egypt conquered by Hyskos.
    Hittites expand to Old kingdom.
    Egypt begins New Kingdom, Hyskos expelled and the Nubians conquered
    Hittites break up "old" babylon, and expand to Syria
    Kassites take "old"bablyon
    Chaldeans infiltrate Babylon
    Chaldeans fight Assyrian domnation
    (Hittites and Egypt fight)
    Hittites and Egypt expand to Palestine and Syria
    Hitties are halted at Meggido by Egypt
    Egyptians expand to Mesopotamia
    Hittites expand and fight against Babylonian Empire, conquer Mitanni
    Assyria begins to rise
    Egypt halts Hittites at Kadesh and Egypt takes Palestine, Syria goes to Hittites
    Elamites revolt against rulers and gain independance
    Hittites war with Assyria and lose due to attacks via Sea People, and internal Disorder.
    First waves of Sea People invade
    Irsael conquers Canaan
    Severe famine causes Egypt to send grain ships north to Asia minor, Lybians suffering causes move to Delta
    Assyrian Empire grows to Conquer Bablyon
    Turmoil and famine ensue with massive migrations of people, Egypt defeats the Sea People in battle but gives Philistine to them, the Hittites are desroyed, Cyprus is overwhelmed, Assyria is expanding, and Palestine is full of small kingdoms and nations
    Assyria grows to full power
    General usurp Pharoah and create numerous feudal kingdoms.
    Philistines conquer Israel, Sual expels them, David creates the United monarchy of Judah, and Israel, conquer Palestine, Sugjegate Ammons, Moabs, etc. Conquer the lands to Syria.

    Long read
    Chronological order :cheers:
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  15. #45

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Good summary. I had a couple of websites that presented long timelines (they'd be for each individual nation, and span it's whole length...) I'll try to get some of those posted.

    @HTW dudes- I'm rather worried about the whole 2,000 turn game, personally:\ Most people get rather tired of Medieval games after 400 or so... I think each of your periods should present it's own campaign, and then you can have more focus on different styles of technology, units, etc... In each one. I think this would present a funner MOD overall, especially from the gameplay point of view!

    Here's some information I can dig up at the moment-

    HITTITES-
    ----------

    Hittite Rulers, names and years:

    Labarnash, founder of the Hittite Kingdom (d. 1660 BC )
    Hattusilis I (1680-1650 BC)
    Mursilis I (1620-1590 BC)
    Hantilis II
    Zidantas
    Ammunhas
    Telepinus (1525-1510 BC)
    Alluwamnas
    Tudhaliyas I
    Huzzihas II (1460-1440 BC)
    Arnuwandas I (1440-1420 BC)
    Hattusilis II (1420-1400 BC)
    Tudhaliyas II (1400-1380 BC)
    Suppiluliumas I (1380-1345 BC)
    Arnuwandas II (1345 BC)
    Mursilis II (1345-1315 BC)
    Muwatallis (1315-1275 BC)
    Hattusilis III (1275-1250 BC)
    Tudhaliyas IV (1250-1220 BC)
    Arnuwandas IV(1220-1200 BC)
    Suppiluliumas II (1200-1190 BC)

    Brief history-

    Originally the Hittites were semi-nomadic farmers who lived north of the Black Sea and who migrated into Anatolia around 2300 BC. According to tradition, the founder of the Old Hittite kingdom was named Labarnas. He established the seas as his boundaries and made his sons governors of the conquered territories.

    During the reign of Mursilis I (1620-1590 BC), the Hittites raided down the Euphrates, destroying Babylon in 1600 BC and defeating the Hurrians on the return march. Subsequent to his reign, however, the empire was plagued by internal chaos, a period marked by political insurrection, royal assassinations, and palace intrigues. During this time the Hittites lost control of much of their previously acquired territory in Anatolia and Syria. In 1525 BC, however, Telepinus seized the throne and restored order to the kingdom.

    Suppiluliumas I (1380-1346 BC), an energetic and successful campaigner, restored Hittite control in Anatolia. His predecessors, Arnuwandas I, Hattusilis II, Tudhaliyas II, and Arnuwandas II, were unable to defend even the heartland and had endured attacks from every direction. He effectively extended the borders of his kingdom to the south and east. He fought successful wars with the Mitanni and conquered most of Syria, including the powerful city-state of Carchemesh. This conquest brought the Hittites into conflict with Egypt, whose armies, during the two previous centuries, had campaigned in Palestine and had conquered territory as far away as the Euphrates. By 1315 BC the new Hittite empire was firmly established and effectively governed through a widespread system of treaty relationships with allies and vassal states.

    There is some disagreement as to whether Mursilis II's successor, Muwatallis, defeated the Egyptian army led by Rameses II at Qadesh on the Orontes River. Strategically, the Hittites were able to drive the Egyptians out of Syria and to retain control of Qadesh and Amurru, but tactically, the Egyptians would appear to have won the day. Flare-ups between the two ancient empires continued until 12 years later when a treaty between Hattusilis III and Rameses II insured peace between Hatti and Egypt.

    In the 13th century BC, Assyria absorbed Mitannian territory as far as the Euphrates, previously within the sphere of Hittite control and influence. Meanwhile, the Assyrians were steadily gaining power and were becoming a dangerous neighbour. They caused rebellions all along the southern border and Tudhalish IV spent his the rest of his life trying to supress these rebellions. Again beset by both internal and external pressures, the Hittites were unable to resist the onslaught of the Sea Peoples, who overran Anatolia about 1200 BC and contributed to the collapse of the Hittite empire.

    These invasions brought about a dark age across Asia Minor that lasted from 1200-800 BC. When they left, the lands recovered and reorganized into over a dozen small independent kingdoms, with a Hittite culture modified by Syrian-Semitic influences, known as the Neo-Hittite, or Syro-Hittite, states (referred to as the "Sons of Heth" in the Bible). These states were able to survive as long as they did by forming alliances, but eventually fell to Assyrian and Urartu aggression by 710 BC.

    NEW KINGDOM EGYPTIANS-
    --------------------------

    Names of Rulers and Dates-

    1550-1525 Ahmose (Amosis) (Amonhotep)
    1525-1504 Amenophis I
    1504-1492 Thuthmose I (Tuthmosis)
    1492-1479 Thuthmose II (Tuthmosis)
    1479-1425 Thuthmose III (Tuthmosis)
    1473-1458 Hatshepsut
    1427-1401 Amenophis II
    1401-1391 Tuthmosis IV
    1391-1353 Amenophis III
    1353-1335 Amenophis IV (a.k.a. Akhenaten)
    1335-1333 Smenkhkare
    1333-1323 Tutankhamun
    1323-1319 Aya (Ay)
    1319-1307 Haremhab (Horemhab)

    1307-1196 19th Dynasty

    1307-1306 Ramesses I
    1306-1290 Seti I
    1290-1224 Ramesses II
    1224-1214 Merneptah
    1214-1204 Seti II
    1204-1198 Siptah
    1198-1196 Twosre

    1196-1070 20th Dynasty

    1196-1194 Sethnakhte
    1194-1094 Ramesses III-XI

    Brief History
    -----------

    18th Dynasty

    After the expulsion of the Hyksos, Amenhotep I, who reigned 1551-1524 BC, began to extend Egypt's boundaries in Nubia and Palestine. When Thutmose III achieved sole rule after the death of his mother, Hatshepsut in 1483 BC, he reconquered Syria and Palestine, which had broken away during their co-regency. He then continued to expand his empire southward beyond the fifth cataract, into Nubia and westward into Libya. Amenhotep II, who reigned 1453-1419 BC, and Thutmose IV tried to maintain the Asian conquests in the face of growing threats from the Mitanni and Hittites, but they found it necessary to use negotiations as well as force to penetration further into Mesopotamia.

    While Amenhotep III ruled peacefully from 1386-1349 BC, the Hittites had been establishing control over Syria and threatening Egypt's position in Palestine. He was only successful in maintaining the balance of power among Egypt's neighbours by diplomacy. His son and successor, Amenhotep IV, more commonly known as Akhenaton, was a religious reformer who fought the power of the Amon priesthood. His only military contribution was to let the imperial possessions slip away, thereby setting the stage for the more dynamic external and military affairs of the 19th Dynasty.

    19th Dynasty

    The 19th Dynasty was founded by Ramses I, who had served his predecessor, Horemhab, as vizier and commander of the army. He reigned for only two years, from 1293-1291 BC. He was succeeded by his son, Seti I, who reigned 1291-1279 BC and is considered to be one of the most active and successful military leaders of the period. He led campaigns against Syria, Palestine, the Libyans, and the Hittites. His most famous son, Ramses II, succeeded him and reigned for nearly 67 years. He was responsible for a great deal of construction at sites such as Luxor and Karnak. He built the Ramesseum (his funerary temple at Thebes), the rock-cut temples at Abu Simbel, as well as sanctuaries at Abydos and Memphis and these provide an invaluable source of information on this period. After campaigns against the Hittites, climaxing in the much interpreted battle of Qadesh around 1300, Ramses concluded a treaty with them culminating in a marriage to a Hittite princess. His son Merneptah, who reigned 1212-1202 BC, defeated one wave of Sea Peoples, and he is reported to have caused some havoc in Israel. Later rulers of this dynasty had to contend with constant uprisings by subject peoples within the empire.

    20th Dynasty

    The second ruler of the 20th Dynasty, Ramses III, halted, but did not defeat the Sea Peoples. He gave them land in Canaan, which became Philistia. His mortuary complex at Medinet Habu, near Thebes documents his military victories.

    The rising power of the priesthood of Amon and that of the army contributed to the decline of the New Kingdom and a general state of chaos after Ramses' death. This period offers a backdrop for wargame battles that are rarely seen, that is, civil war scenarios.

    SUMER-
    --------

    Timeline-

    2800: Etana of Kish united Sumerian city-states Kish, Uruk, Ur, Sippar, Akshak Larak, Nippur, Adab, Umma, Lagash, Bad-tibira, Larsa after "Great Flood"
    2630-2600: Men-barage-si: King of Kish (Kishi), disarmed Elam
    2600: Gilgamesh: King of Uruk, "built the walls", Epic of Gilgamesh
    2494-2465: Ur-Nanshe: King of Lagash, border fights with Umma
    2480-2461: Mes-Ane-pada: King of Ur (and Kish?) united Sumer
    2466-2455: Akurgal, King of Lagash, son of Ur-Nanshe, lost ground to Umma
    2454-2425-2405: Eannatum - Enannatum, Kings of Lagash, sons of Akurgal
    2421-2410-2401: Elulu - Balulu, Kings of Ur
    2404-2375: Entemena, King of Lagash, dug irrigation canal to Tigris river.
    2400-2391: Shagkush-anna: King of Ur, "Priest King of Sumer, King of Nation"
    2400-2391: Gish-Shag-ki-dug, King of Umma
    2380-2361: Lugal-kinishe-dudu, King of Umma and overlord of Ur & Uruk made a treaty with Lagash
    2351-2340: Uru-inim-gina (Uru-Ka-gina), King of Lagash famous for legal reforms.
    2340-2316: Lugal-zage-si: King of Umma, sacked Lagash, known as "King of the Countries"
    2340-2315: Sargon, King of Akkad, conquered Sumer, referred to as "King of the Four Quarters."
    2315-2307: Rimus, King of Akkad, raided Elam and known for reign of terror until assassinated.
    2306-2292: Manishtusu: King of Akkad, lost southern Sumer and was assassinated .
    2300: Sargon's daughter Enheduana recorded as High Priestess of Ur.
    2291-2255: Naram-Suen, King of Akkad, Sumer & Elam, deified as "The Mighty One."
    2217-2193: Shar-kali-sharri: King of Akkad, lost Elam, raided Gutium, and assassinated.
    2189-2169-2154: Dudu - Shu-Turul: Kings of Akkad, controlled Sumer during period of decline.
    2155-2142: Ur-Baba: King of Lagash
    2148-2147: La'arab: King of Gutium, conquered Akkad from east and raided Sumer.
    2141-2122: Gudea: King of Lagash, son-in-law of Ur-Baba
    2133-2113: Utu-hegal: King of Uruk, defeated foreign Gutium dynasty in 2130.
    2112-2095: Ur-Nammu: King of Ur, famous for "Laws of Ur-Nammu"
    2094-2047: Shulgi: King of Ur, son of Ur-Nammu
    2046-2038-2029: Amar-suena - Shu-Suen: Kings of Ur, sons of Shulgi
    2028-2004: Ibbi-Suen: King of Ur, son of Shu-Suen, ruled during period of invasions and crop failures.

    Brief History-

    History begins with the Sumerians, or so it is said. According to archaeologists, they came from the mountains of Elam or the Armenian plains, and settled (circa 5000 BC) in the swampy lands where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers formed a delta at the head of the Persian Gulf circa 5000 BC. They drained the swamps, channeled the floods, invented the wheel, tilled the fertile soil, and founded settlements which grew into the prosperous city-states of Eridu, Kish, Mari, Nippur, Lagash, Umma, Ur, and Uruk circa 3000 BC. Eridu is often associated with the location of the biblical Garden of Eden.

    The DBA Summerian list begins properly in 3000 BC, which is presumeably the period when Gilgamesh rose to preeminence as King of Uruk. This was referred to as the Dynastic Period, with each of the independent city-states ruled by Priest-Kings, such as King Mis-anni-padda of Ur (c. 2500 B.C.). The end of the Dynastic Period is marked by a massive flood, which is often associated with the biblical story of Noah's Ark.

    Following the flood, the southern city-states as far north as Kish were united under the rule of King Lugalzaggesi of Umma (2340 BC). But not for long. Around 2330 BC Sargon of Agade, a semitic king from the north, invaded Sumer and made it part of his expanding empire. From his capital at Akkad (later renamed Babylon under the Amorites), he subjugated the lands from the Persian Gulf to Cappadocia in south-eastern Turkey, ruling the first great empire of the ancient world for 56 years. But with the Hurrians, Hittites and other barbarians pressing against every border, Akkadia was engaged in almost constant war. After the reign of Sargon's grandson Naramsin, the strain of holding together the far flung empire became too great. The Gutians (natives of the Zagros Highlands to the east) overran Akkadia and much of northern Sumer (c. 2230, 2193 or 2180 BC), ending Sargon's Dynasty. With the Akkadians overwhelmed and under Gutian rule, the Sumerians regained nominal control over many of their city-states and in 2125, the Sumerian city of Ur rose up in revolt against Akkadia and was able to establish an independent Sumerian empire encompassing the city-states of southern Mesopotamia. Taking the offensive, King Utuhegal was able to expel the Gutians (c. 2120 or 2112?).

    The DBA list comes to a close circa 2000 with the appearance of the Amorites, who migrated from the lands of Nimrod (upper Iraq) southward to overrun much of Mesopotamia. Sumerian city-states remained independent after a fashion until King Hammurabi of the Amorites founded the kingdom of Babylonia circa 1763 BC and absorbed the Sumerian cities into his realm.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's what I can dig up at the moment. The source is http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/ancients.html

    Which is a DBA army site. Tom Ryans is the guy who did two of those three articles. The Old/Middle Kingdom Egypt pages are down, though!

    I'll get more stuff later, I have plenty of sites, so I'll post some more links as well... And I can personally do plenty of research for Minoans and Mycenaeans;).

    Ciao!

    -Gregory-

  16. #46
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Old Kingdom Military(from osprey)
    In the Old Kingdom, numerous tribes, or nomes recruited local militia, every man at a certain age was in it, and then the masses were drawn up for wars. The Pharoah or Warlord of Memphis, had a small nucleus of royal bodyguards that formed the nucleus of the army (as was, the bodyguard was usually the nucleus as they were elite) the bodyguards protected the governors of the nomes, and high ranking officals. The Vizier was a Commander and Chief, and then numerous others who took care of supplies, etc. The army was divided into Light and Heavy troops, with Nubia and Lybia providing mercenaries. Later in the Old Kingdom, the army was mostly made of Mercenaries and the militia were more loyal to thier nomes.

    Middle Kingdom
    During this time, Theban princes didn't make the same mistake as in the Old Kingdom. They instead formed a large egyptian element, with the militia now full time soldiers. Mercenaries were recuited for garrison service, with the Egyptians as the army. The army was all infantry, with the heavy troops in phalanx, the rest archers. The troops were based on the decimal system (smallest unit being 100, largest being 3000)

    New Kingdom
    After the Hyskos, the Egyptians had three things
    Scale armor, Composite Bow, and Chariot.
    Now there were 3 units to be used in battle.
    Now militias were resevist force. Haremheb had 2 division, Seti I added another one (named Set after the god) And Rameses created the Ptah division. Soon after he raise the Phra division.
    Each city was given a diety god, and they provided men to the division after which god the city had (Memphis provided men for the Ptah division, Thebes had Amun, and with each new city, a new division)

    The nome militias would rotate thier men from army to reserve, to army again. The division was made up of 5,000 soldiers, and commanded by a general or prince. The Pharoah commanded the entire army.

    The army was divided into "battalions" each with a specific weapon. The phalanx was armed with spear, and then with axe or a kopesh (the hand scythe weapon) Archers and slingers were in the army as well. The chariots were a intergral part of the army, but then became a seperate arm.

    Mercenaries now began to form the backbone of the army. Sherden and Philistine warriors now formed the army, along with royal bodyguard.

    Philistine military
    The philistines were a heavy infantry group, armed with 2 heavy throwing spears, and a sword.

    Israel,
    This exludes Judah. The israeli army was formed of the tribe militia, each organized into units of 1,000, By Davids time, each tribe provided a certain arm (this info can be found in the Bible in Chronicles 1, XII) of the military.

    Benjamin provided archers and slingers, 700 were ambidextrous (can use both hands) Gad, Reuben, and half Manasseh were sword and buckler with assorted archers. Zebulun were phalanx spearmen, Naphtali were spear and shield. Dan and Asher were "experts in war" Issacher were raiding and scouting. Levi wer border guards and garrison.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  17. #47

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Again, Murat, nice information:D I really need to get in those darn Osprey books I ordered!

    What about faction lists? There isn't a set one yet, is there? I think that would be one of the first tings that should be done, because from the factions/map, most things come down from there...

    -Gregory-

  18. #48
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Well, we should have
    Ur, Uruk, Akkadia, Hittites, Assyria, and the others I mentioned.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  19. #49
    Member Member flip's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Ok, this is our list, from Komninos


    Mycenaean Early High Late
    Minoan Early High
    Minion Early High Late
    Pelasgian Early High
    Thracian Early High Late
    Peonean Early High Late
    Illyrian Early High Late
    Phrygian Late
    Meon Late
    Likian Late
    Summer Early
    Acadian Early
    Babylonian High Late
    Egyptian Early High Late
    Nubian Early High Late
    Syrian Early High Late
    Lybian Early High Late
    Canaanite Early High Late
    Hittite High Late
    Hyksos High
    Midianite Early High Late
    Assyrian High Late
    Hebrew Late
    Philistine Late
    Phoenician Late
    Last edited by flip; 08-11-2004 at 02:21.
    CHIEF DESIGNER

    Hellenic Total War

  20. #50

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Okay, well, if the periods are like this:

    Early-3000 BC to 2000 BC

    High- 2000 BC to 1500 BC

    Late- 1500 BC to 800 BC (or whatever the end date you chose was)

    I don't know about plenty of those factions, and obviously guys like the Thracians or many of the other factions will have to have more 'unrealistic' forces, because we don't know much about their armies (just vague descriptions, etc...). The 2,000+ turn thing still get's me, but, whatever:p

    -Gregory-

  21. #51
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Post Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Hi all,

    Last night I managed to get some time for the experimental map that you will soon see. It will come in a PSP (paint shop pro) format with layers. The first will be the satellite image (flip sorry about that but I redesigned some of the borders). The second has the areas that the map is divided.

    The Map
    Apparently there is a lot of info in the area so I will need your help in putting the correct area characteristics and naming them. I can name most of the areas near Greece but what I am looking is the ancient names of the Areas so Halicarnasus is definitely not the correct name ... but in case we don’t have anything else ...

    Also ecological info will be needed. Earth has changed a lot since then. i.e. I heard that Old Egypt Kingdom was in a Savannah type land scale and near the Nile a tropical one.

    Also can we transform the maps used by MTW. i.e. Lush landscape is not used but is the one that you get snow from time to time. So if we move Temperate to Lush, Arid to Temperate and make an Arid that will represent Tropical landscape things will look better what do you think.

    The Factions
    There is a huge number of factions. I know Thracians, Peoneans, and Illirians are very old in the Balkan region. Thracians offered help to the Trojans so they might appear in the High and late period with more or less a light troops. Others like Likian and Meon were Asia Minor remains of the disintegrating Hittite empire so they will use Hittite troops. Any way If you feel some faction is missing please do say so.

    The Units
    Due to missing information we used mostly the lists of DBA and things we know. What we plan is that factions will have very small number of special units. That they will built. All units will be bound to the areas where they come from. So if you like to get 8-shaped shields then you will have to go to Greece to get them. This is to reflect what most kingdoms did in ancient times. You will also find some mercenaries. A list of them will be available in an XLS format with some of there attributes. (Good, NO_armor, ... , etc). We will need some help in describing them more accurately.

    First impressions
    I managed to play a bit as Egypt and got my bat kicked by ... seaborne invading Rebels!!!! That was a surprise Rebel provinces did build armies and ships and for once they invaded!!! If this continues as the development goes on I think you will have your hand full even for 2000 years!

  22. #52
    Member Member The House of Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Guys i am new to HTW but i need more!!!!!!!!!

    You guys do a fantastic job and i think HTW plays better than the origianals,

    one thing tho...the further back in time you go the less cohiesive the units get, ergo it could just end up with 1000 men a side smashing into each other in the middle like they used to, but hey whadda i know??

    Keep it up guys!!

  23. #53

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    [quote]Also ecological info will be needed. Earth has changed a lot since then. i.e. I heard that Old Egypt Kingdom was in a Savannah type land scale and near the Nile a tropical one.[quote]

    Yes, Wasn't a part of Iran under water at the time also?

  24. #54

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Komninos, awesome information!

    "invading Rebels!!!! That was a surprise Rebel provinces did build armies and ships and for once they invaded!!!"

    Ouch:\ But that's good. If the rebels continue to be hostile, it'll make the game a lot funner;D.

    "The Units
    Due to missing information we used mostly the lists of DBA and things we know. What we plan is that factions will have very small number of special units. That they will built. All units will be bound to the areas where they come from. So if you like to get 8-shaped shields then you will have to go to Greece to get them. This is to reflect what most kingdoms did in ancient times. You will also find some mercenaries. A list of them will be available in an XLS format with some of there attributes. (Good, NO_armor, ... , etc). We will need some help in describing them more accurately"

    Yeah, the DBA lists are helpful. So, I'm figuring you're thinkin between 4-6 unique units for each faction? What about figuring out what 'regular units' there will be. Or will unique units be enough to fill the ranks of each army?

    "The Factions
    There is a huge number of factions. I know Thracians, Peoneans, and Illirians are very old in the Balkan region. Thracians offered help to the Trojans so they might appear in the High and late period with more or less a light troops. Others like Likian and Meon were Asia Minor remains of the disintegrating Hittite empire so they will use Hittite troops. Any way If you feel some faction is missing please do say so."

    Yeah, the faction list looks great to me. I'm interested in Achaean Warfare mainly, myself, so lots of those weren't even apparent to me quickly:D Very nice job with that list! Once again, could you give your latest idea on the exact years each era will cover? I think that maybe making them each an even amount of years would be better, like this:

    Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
    High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
    Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC.

    That'd give each era 750 years, if I'm not mistaken...

    Well, good stuff, once again! Adios!

    -Gregory-

  25. #55
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Hi Gregorius0202,

    Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
    High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
    Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC

    Well yes these look good!

    So here is the map and the unit list these cover all the eras. The fist letters befor the "_" designate there Origin so GR_ are Greeks SUM_ are Summer.

    The files are here.
    Please we need to name the regions and get there attributes doun.
    Here is the map with the identifiers on it.

    TERRAIN
    =======
    ARID
    LUSH
    ROCK_DESERT
    SAND_DESERT
    TEMPERATE

    REGION ATTRIBUTES
    ================
    FLAT
    HILLY
    MOUNTAIN
    PLAINS
    Last edited by komninos; 08-12-2004 at 05:59.

  26. #56

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Hey Komninos,

    I'll check out the units/map after school today (it's early mornin' over here, currently...) I don't have Medieval: Total War/H:TW installed on this PC at the moment, but I don't think these files have anything to do with them, so I'll be all right, correct? I'm interested in the unit list:D

    "Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
    High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
    Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC

    Well yes these look good!"

    Cool, sounds good;)

    On a different subject-

    I'm in need of a map of the area of Greece (very small provinces), and I know that you're pretty darn good at making them Kom'! So, although this isn't the place to discuss it, if you'd get me your email address, I'd be able to explain more in-depth the situation. I know you've got a life and all, so, I'm in no rush! Lemme' know if you can get me some help!

    Thanks!

    -Gregory-

  27. #57
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    I'm in need of a map of the area of Greece (very small provinces), and I know that you're pretty darn good at making them Kom'! So, although this isn't the place to discuss it, if you'd get me your email address, I'd be able to explain more in-depth the situation. I know you've got a life and all, so, I'm in no rush! Lemme' know if you can get me some help!
    Well for that ... please refer to the big thread in this forum ... or just get HTW and your map will be there

  28. #58

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    "Well for that ... please refer to the big thread in this forum ... or just get HTW and your map will be there"

    Oh, I didn't think about the HTW map (doh!) Would you mind if I used that for the Age of Heroes MOD? And I need someone to do BIF's, do you know anyone who's good at it without a MOD job at the moment:D? I'd ask if you guys would like to try it out as an add on campaign to this Bronze Age one for the HTW title, but that's a bit much to be askin', so I'm tryin' to (unsuccessfully, at the moment) get a team together for it.

  29. #59
    Member Member komninos's Avatar
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    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    Gregorius0202,

    Yes you can use the map. I was planning an Bronze Age HTW add-on mostly as a test platform. We will be making bifs for the BATW so no worries try to lern some stuff on the stupid coordinate system cause we will need it.

    RTW is on the back of my mind though. When the Demo will be out we need to take a good look at the file system.

    Cheers

  30. #60

    Default Re: HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

    "try to lern some stuff on the stupid coordinate system cause we will need it."

    Coordinate system for the map? *Medieval, If I'm followin' ya' correctly*.

    As soon as I get VI installed in this PC, which should happen tonight, I'll see what I can do about tryin' to figure out whatever you have in mind for me to do to help.

    "I was planning an Bronze Age HTW add-on mostly as a test platform."
    "RTW is on the back of my mind though."

    I was thinkin'... Maybe for Rome: Total War, my Age of Heroes campaign would be a good testing ground for the larger, more advanced campaigns, since we won't really know what we're up against at the time, and with all of the cities close together and such, we can test the new borders, etc...

    "Yes you can use the map."

    Thanks.

    Adios!

    -Gregory-

    (p.s.-Komninos, call me Greg )
    Last edited by Gregorius0202; 08-13-2004 at 14:17.

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