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Thread: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

  1. #31
    Member Member Praylak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktonos
    Some feedback please? I have just played 2 campaigns and this is my first impression. Anyone with more game hours experienced smthng differend?
    It feels the same way for me. I do enjoy the extras involved in diplomacy but it feels really hollow at times. Let me share a short example..

    I'm playing Pontus, and I am retaliating against Greek aggression. After destroying their mighty army, I walk my best army into Phrygia with a 4 influence diplomat. Their city of Pergamum has three units in it and has had revolts recently. I send in the diplomat and ask for the lowest amount of 100 D tribute for 10 years in exchange for a ceasefire. They say no, so I ask again this time I ask only 5 turns 100d each, for a ceasefire and traderights or we attack. No dice. So I then proceeded to blockade all trade to the city, port and road. Camped there for like 10 turns causing bad devastaion. No rescue armies came, and I didn't expect any as five other nations where at war with them as well. I tryed many offer combinations, and nothing ever doned on them. So I sieged the city for 7 turns and then took it.

    Pride is one thing, but I think I was giving a pretty reasonable offer. It just felt hollow, like no AI there at all, just a "no" script. What did I do wrong?

  2. #32
    Member Member Ktonos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    I am afraid that all those diplomacy features are there just for the Roman campaign. For the rest factions the diplomacy stayed the same as STW and MTW. I would n't be frustrated if It wasn't something relativly easy to make. Maybe in the patch, but then again maybe not...
    O xein aggelein Lakedemoniois oti tade efi kimetha tois koinon rimasi poi8omenoi

  3. #33
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Finally back, I'll see if I can add anything helpful here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktonos
    1. In short campaigns the scenario demands to win 1 or 2 named factions. Whenever I play the named factions are always at war with me nomatter what. Is it default that you'll have to fight them to theend with no possibility to have a nice alliance from the begining etc?
    Good question... my guess is that diplomacy is rigged -- the faction stance rating between you and faction X that you're supposed to exterminate/outlast is SO bad that no amount of negotiation will heal the rift. That's just a guess though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktonos
    2. Military access with a facrion is in fact a true alliance. But its very hard to achive that. Is it just that you have to offer some large amount of D?
    Yes, a large sum of denarii will get you military access almost every time. Sometimes this can indeed be a LARGE sum, like 30.000 d in single payment, if the faction is strong. Gifting regions seems to be worthless when it comes to gaining military access.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktonos
    3. My only objection with STW and MTW was the lack of diplomatic options. Every faction would attack at its own descretion nomatter what. The oly diplomatic option was to make alliance or cease fire and those were extremely unstable. Now there are the options, many of them and prety clever too. But the AI gives me the impression of the previous TWs. "I attack you because I want too nomatter if you are an ally or if you can smash me in 2 years.
    Hmmm... I'm in the late midgame of a Brutii campaign right now and have had a solid alliance with the Britani, the Dacians, and the Germans going for almost thirty years. In another (short) campaign as the Macedonians, I have Military Access alliances with the Scythians, the Dacians, and an alliance with the Brutii, that's been going for twelve years and through which I've been able to ask for assistance (and got assistance) against the Greek Cities.

    If you're playing a Roman faction, then you absolutely have to get as far away from Rome as possible to negotiate properly. Otherwise the other factions will attack the factions you're making agreements with. Once that happens, every other faction in the game will call you a liar for years, and refuse to negotiate with you.

    Try either getting a "wall" of provinces between your allies and the other Roman factions, or just play a non-Roman faction with a decent economy, and you should find that it's a very robust and enjoyable part of the game.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  4. #34
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Praylak
    ...They say no, so I ask again this time I ask only 5 turns 100d each, for a ceasefire and traderights or we attack. No dice. ... Pride is one thing, but I think I was giving a pretty reasonable offer. It just felt hollow, like no AI there at all, just a "no" script. What did I do wrong?
    I've had experiences like that as well -- in fact, right now the Greek Cities are refusing any and all offers, even though I've been offering them Protectorate status and Ceasefires for several turns now. I've got them down to a single city (Mazaka, not exactly a stronghold) and still they refuse. Also, the Scythians refuse to give me military access even though I've offered them 20.000 denarii for it.

    I would very much like to know the mechanics better --- why do some of these factions refuse right until the bitter end? I don't know, would love to learn though.

    And therother, THANKS! That's a great list, I'll be adding it shortly here, and will definitely work in your suggestions for a retinue discussion. I dug around as much as I could in the data files, but don't have the technical knowledge to do very well at it.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  5. #35

    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Of what use is military access? Units seem to move around the map without restriction. I have marched right by armies of neutral countries to get to another and nothing happened????

  6. #36
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    Of what use is military access? Units seem to move around the map without restriction. I have marched right by armies of neutral countries to get to another and nothing happened????
    AFAIK, there are two main consequences of not having military access:
    • If you are Roman, the Senate will be upset with you. This can be a real problem if relations between you and the Senate are poor, as they may threaten to fine you.
    • The infringed neutral (or even allied) country will be mightily annoyed at you, and will be less likely to respond positively to your diplomatic approaches, as well as possibly retaliating by moving an army into your territory. Having a couple of huge neutral armies from nations that are annoyed with you sitting just outside one of your cities is usually not a good thing!

    Military Access is what really cements an alliance into a true friendship rather than just a piece of paper. It means that the faction trusts you to march all over their territory. I would assume that it make them much less likely to break the alliance, giving you a greater measure of security on one of your borders.
    Last edited by therother; 10-06-2004 at 17:03.
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  7. #37
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    An 'Alliance'-only alliance is like a MTW/STW alliance. Factions can (and often do) break them if they see an opportunity to strike.

    Military Access makes the alliance a solid, difficult-to-break thing. Only if you make a major diplomatic blunder (like clicking to support a faction who are attacking your ally, or offer to your ally to cancel trade rights) will the alliance be broken. I've had simple on-paper alliances broken in less than two turns, while I have yet to have a Military Access-type alliance broken (in over fourty years of game time).
    Last edited by Tamur; 10-06-2004 at 16:20.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  8. #38
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    New version up, with therother's Trait/Retinue info, discussion of Retinue Management, four small additions to good old Appendix B (Offers & Demands).
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  9. #39
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    I was a big fan using spies in MTW to soften up the enemy, and to cherry pick rich trading provinces without risking war - well, except with the rebels! I've been developing analogous backstabbing strategies in RTW, and I think that I've found one hopeful that's ready to go wild. I'm not sure this exactly counts as diplomacy, it's more like a subterfuge strategy, but I'll submit it anyway.

    What you want to do is make one of neighbour's settlements revolt, putting it in the hands of the rebels. You then move in and take the settlement for yourself: it shouldn't be that well guarded by the revolting peasants. Now, if all you’re interested in is a land grab, you just keep the settlement. But you can now use this settlement as leverage with the faction from whom you've pilfered the province, or indeed with a one of their rivals with whom you wish to improve relations. This is where the extra layers of diplomacy RTW allows really come into play!

    Anyway, you'll need a siege army, a few spies, an assassin or two, and, of course, a diplomat. The quality and number of spies, diplomats and assassins, as well as of the army, will depend on the size and agent defence of the target settlement.

    Move your spies into the target settlement. If the chances of infiltration are low, get your assassin(s) to kill any enemy spies stationed in the settlement. This should allow easier infiltration. Once your spies are in place, check the public order percentage. Hopefully it is now well below 100%: the lower the better. If it's not low enough to set off a revolt (below 50% is usually when things get very hairy), get your assassins to fulfil their other role by sabotaging public order building to really turn up the heat. Temples, law institutions, and so on, are the key targets.

    Meanwhile have your diplomat station himself near either the faction that the target settlement belongs to, or the rival faction you wish to help/curry favour with. Once you've secured the settlement, you can now offer it to the faction in exchange for various treaties, from a ceasefire, all the way up to protectorate, although I've never managed, much to my chagrin, to get anyone to accept becoming my protectorate. Or you could just ask for cash, or even give it as a gift if relations between your factions aren't too hot.

    Not comes the even more devious part. Once you give back the province, you can just repeat the process, only it's easier this time, especially if you've not given it back to the former owners, as they won't be able to garrison it for at least a turn or two, all the whilst your spies are still causing trouble. So it will likely revolt again pretty soon! And you can repeat this, perhaps alternating the faction to give it to. You may want to have another diplomat on hand to bribe the relief force coming to take over the city if needs be, as you won’t want to spoil relations by attacking it.

    The most success I've had with this tactic is going from a Senate inspired - but thoroughly unwanted (for my part at least) - conflict with the Egyptians, to an Alliance with the Egyptians. I also managed to get Military Access at what I considered a bargain price from the Armenians. Previously they would even entertain the idea! This was all over Tarsus. The fact that the ceasefire that was forced on the other Roman factions by my Alliance lasted only 3 turns is besides the point; it not my fault they declared war on the Egyptians again, and I was still in the binding Roman alliance, so that automatically broke the Alliance. But at least we were no longer in a war with each other, and relations had improved markedly. They still haven't resumed hostilities a dozen turns later, whereas our previous ceasefire lasted only a couple of turns.
    Last edited by therother; 10-06-2004 at 17:06.
    Nullius addictus iurare in uerba magistri -- Quintus Horatius Flaccus

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Senior Member Tricky Lady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Hi Tamur,
    Perhaps it's just me, my PC or my Acrobat 5.0, but I can't open your document. It says just "this document is damaged and can't be opened."

    It worked fine when i opened & read your file when you just posted it.

  11. #41
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Ah yes, sorry I should have noted: you need Acrobat Reader 6.0 to see the document. It's a free download, that's the good thing. The bad thing is that its smallest version is near 9 MB, large is 22 MB. If you're on dial-up, I apologise!
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  12. #42
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Thanks Tamur - without this guide I never would have turned my war with Thrace into Protectorate status. :cheers: Now I'm trying to see if I can use Diplomacy to build the Selucids back from the single province they are now in.
    robotica erotica

  13. #43
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Yippee... glad to hear of your success Colovion! Protectorates are the peak of diplomacy, well done.


    There is a new version of the guide up.

    -- added new appendix (Diplomatic Phraseology). It's raw data, and you've seen many of them before, but this list is an eye-opener in a few places.

    -- added two new strategies

    -- added many corrections and additions to Bribes, Responding to Proposals, Traits & Retinue Members

    -- added short section on Interpreting Answers
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  14. #44
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Great guide....

    Question: What is the difference between offering a gift and making an offer to see what the other faction will give you?? I mean a nice little early money boost as the Romans is wait for the senate to tell you to take someones settlement and then make a diplomatic offering to attack that same faction, they will usually give you a few hundred denarii.. You can also wait until all Roman factions are at war with a faction and then make the same offer to them all. But this is always a "what will you give me to do this" thing and not a "gift" thing....

    Page 12, Mechanics of bribed or adopted characters are who they are assigned to. To me it appears this is always the nearest family member.

    Finally, asking for something simple like Map Info, often if you simply make the demand and leave the price open the other faction will say, never!!! But if you stick an offer of a few denarii in there they might start negotiating... Whats up with that????

  15. #45

    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    One trick that I've used (and had used against me) is "Forced War". Basically, if you are allied with someone, and you have a unit next to someone your ally is at war with, when your ally attacks that unit, you'll get dragged into combat as well. And you'll automatically go to war with that unit. Of course, that works for you as well, if you see your ally is sitting next to someone you are at war with, but they aren't, it's a great way to make sure they are. And because you would both now be at war with that faction, it helps cement your alliance.

    I find this works best on the water, as ships seem to congregate. Playing as the Carthagians and allied with the Numidians, they dragged me into a war with Spain. So I returned the favour, and dragged them into a war with Gaul. We've been allies now for close to 50 years, and considering how often I hear that it's impossible to keep an alliance with the Numidians, I consider that a pretty good feat.

    (I posted this here as it's a tangible benefit/penalty from alliances, in case people were wondering what the point of them might be)

    Bh

  16. #46
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    What is the difference between offering a gift and making an offer to see what the other faction will give you??
    When you have crafted a proposal, you have three buttons that either light up or not, depending on what you're proposing. If you have the option to give something as a gift, then you aren't expecting anything back.

    And you shouldn't, either, when it comes to cash. So far in my tests, giving a gift has helped once -- in dropped the price of getting an alliance with the Gauls -- as the Carthaginians --from 25.000d to 22.000d. And the gift that led to that was 8000d!

    One very useful thing about gifting is that you can "gift" an attack on an ally's faction when they're being beligerent and saying, "We cannot trust you, and refuse to accept your attack on our foes." If you Offer an Attack Faction on someone they're at war with, and actually gift it rather than "table" for their consideration, then they will accept it, and you can improve relations with them by fulfulling your promise.

    The laboratory is bubbling re: gifts, hopefully there will be a few more conclusions soon...
    Last edited by Tamur; 10-11-2004 at 22:45.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  17. #47
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Another of my mixture models:

    You can cause trouble for your Rome allies by declaring war on factions that are of little threat to you, but are of a threat to the other factions. As an example, say the Julii are deeply committed with the Gauls, but are neutral/allied with the other barbarian factions. You can use your absolutely binding Alliance with the other Roman factions to get them to declare war on all of these factions, causing added problems for them.

    This is worthwhile as the Roman factions will eventually be your strongest opponents, and having them weaker than you is a very good thing indeed. Of course there are a number of risks to this strategy, not least that they might actually beat your "ally", and start to threaten you, or that it damages your standing permanently with the nations you attack, the other nations, and perhaps most significantly with the Senate: they can do some nasty things to you if annoy them enough (fines, suicides of family members, declaring you an outlaw).

    PS I have Acrobat (no Reader) 5 on my machine, and it reads the file fine.
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  18. #48
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Keep it up - it's a great guide!

    But maybe could you add an 'update' section so you don't have to read through the entire guide to find what's new? :)
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  19. #49
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    *cough* Um, good point. Will add that with the next update later this week, thanks for the suggestion!
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  20. #50
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by sapi
    But maybe could you add an 'update' section so you don't have to read through the entire guide to find what's new? :)
    I'm sure Tamur can (and will) speak for himself(*), but he's usually pretty good at highlighting the major changes in the guide, and giving us info in this thread. But YMMV.

    (*)Edit: And he already had. Hmm, serves me right for not refreshing my browser!
    Last edited by therother; 10-13-2004 at 17:46.
    Nullius addictus iurare in uerba magistri -- Quintus Horatius Flaccus

    History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there -- George Santayana

  21. #51
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    first, thanks for the great work tamur. now, a question: i have tried your suggested "spy follows a diplomat" combo and it never works: i cannot ever get a spy follow a diplomat automatically (right clicking/left clicking, nothing). am i doing something wrong?

  22. #52
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists
    first, thanks for the great work tamur. now, a question: i have tried your suggested "spy follows a diplomat" combo and it never works: i cannot ever get a spy follow a diplomat automatically (right clicking/left clicking, nothing). am i doing something wrong?
    Nope, this is an error in the guide. A spy and a diplomat can only travel together with an army. They can also be together in one of your cities or fleets.
    Last edited by therother; 10-13-2004 at 20:19.
    Nullius addictus iurare in uerba magistri -- Quintus Horatius Flaccus

    History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there -- George Santayana

  23. #53
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    New version up, with lots changes (including the one in the post just above this one). I did add a Revision History, as well as graphical markers on new/edited information. There's also the new section on the calculation of acceptance/failure, hypothesis only.

    I've attempted contacting CA to get good, correct, definite, wonderfully true information for that section but have received no response, so we've got a working hypothesis and lots to test/correct.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  24. #54
    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Don't know about you lot but I find alliances no better than being neutral. In fact sometimes it seems that my allies are more likely to backstab me than my neutral neighbours!? Furthermore, both the military access and the offering/asking to attack a mutual enemy never seem to work or be of any use...!? So what's the point? By the way I play on VH campaign difficulty, which may explain the relative redundancy of any noteworthy diplomacy.

    Are there any advantages to being allied other than the fact that they get dragged into a battle against a mutual foe on the off-chance that an army of theirs is within the same battle square...?
    =MizuDoc Otomo=

  25. #55

    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Part of the problem, I think, is that people don't understand the concept of "allies" as it relates to R:TW. An ally is basically someone who's interests correspond with yours. For example, if you are at war with Carthage, and they are at war with Carthage, then they will likely not only be receptive to making an alliance, but actually stick by it. However, if they are your neighbours, and you have no common enemies, then there is no reason for them to stick to an alliance with you. In fact, it's likely not in their best interests.

    In practical terms this means that going around and trying to make alliances with everyone is just silly. Pick your alliances based on your diplomatic situation. Look for people who are at war with the people you are at war with. Look for people who are allied to people you are allied with. But don't just expect to be able to make an alliance with anyone and have it stand.

    Bh

  26. #56
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    What he said (nicely told, Bhruic).

    Work to have allies with the same allies/enemies as you. Once you have that, get Military Access treaties. Then don't try reselling map info to them, don't bribe any of their units, expand roads between you and them (if possible), offer to attack their enemies, and ask for their help (even if you have to pay for it). With that sort of a scenario, you can expect your alliances to last 50-150 years.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  27. #57

    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Tamur, in your (wonderful) guide, it says that one way of gaining favor with another Roman faction is to complete their Senate objective (such as taking a city) and then offer it to them. Are you saying that there is a way to see the missions Senate assigns to other families?

  28. #58
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    No, unfortunately. That would be a splendid feature, but it's not possible.

    However, once you've played all three Roman factions, you can take a very good guess in the early game t what they'll be assigned to do -- i.e., the first city grab on the Julii list will be Segesta, while the Brutii list will be headed by Apollonia, etc.

    Without a mission view list, that technique becomes somewhat untrustworthy later in the game --- though if the Julii are still struggling to take and keep Patavium in 200 BC, you can make a fair bet that the Senate are after them about it.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

  29. #59
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    Very interesting guide.... Have so far stayed with brute force though.... *blushing*

  30. #60
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

    That's ok molsson... that's why it's Total War! Bludgeon them all, or sweet talk them, it's your pick. Or starve them. Or assassinate them.

    Version 1.13 is up. No major additions, but a lot of small-to-middlin' corrections regarding info which has been in the guide since its inception and has been proven to be mistaken.
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

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