Macedon

[Pedro_Ortiz]

Macedonia is Greece.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Well.......yeah. But they are not the Greek Cities

Different rosters, different temples, and a vastly different starting position.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

As we all know, the Greek's spent a lot of time divided.... So, yes, Macedonians are Greek's, but they live in the northern part of the country. Not a huge difference. The Greek Cities faction represents the league of Greek city states. However, Macedon was unified and under one Macedonian ruler. So they were like a Monarchy I believe. They're a continuation of the Antoginid dynasty of one of Alexander the Great's general's Antigonus the Cyclops. (Or one-eyed alternatively.) So they're a major successor power like the Selucids of general Selecus and the Egyptian dynasty of general Ptolemy.

They have Sarissa pikes that are much longer than the Greek Cities Hoplite's spears. And though their defensive statistics are lower, the longer range and larger unit sizes of pikes generally ensures victory over an opponent using Hoplites. Macedon also get's good cavalry. Like the light lancers, Greek cavalry, and Macedonian cavalry. As well as the heavy Companion cavalry. Light lancers are quick, light, and they hit hard. They're also very low on defense. So there's a learning curve to get used to them. But they are very good if you can use them properly. And if you prefer, it's not too hard to get slightly heavier Greek cavalry. Also a good light cavalry unit. One that I'd often use for it's higher defense. Typically in a medium cavalry role. Macedonian cavalry are great as lancers. They're also the heaviest cavalry you get, aside from Companion cavalry. They have a good charge, good stamina, and good morale. They're also not to hard to get. Companion cavalry are your last line of heavy cavalry, and are superior to many other faction's highest tier cavalry. They are however, quite pricey, and require the highest stables building you get to create. This gives Macedon long reaching pikes, and good cavalry to protect the flanks. Making your army a force to be reckoned with for sure!

[Myth]

One thing i have to disagree is the Pikes vs Hoplites argument. Armoured Hoplites and Spartan Hoplites both walk right trough those Sarissas and steamroll the Macedonian Phalanx (in-game at least). Same for any post-Marian Roman legions. But yes, Macedon's trump card over the Greeks is their superb Cavalry. While they are no Armenia or Seleucia, the Companions are deadly in the hands of a Human player.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

The Sarissas pike is another thing that may require a human's direction. In my battles, I typically out-number hoplites for one, enveloping them, and flanking can remove the problem of the hoplite's higher defensive statistics. Hitting a hoplite from two sides is enough to defeat any hoplite. Including the mighty Spartan. I rarely lose more than a few pikemen.

They pikes are slow though. And awkward. But they help you control the flow of battle. If the enemy won't engage with them fine. But that means that won't get to your missile troops either. If the pike's are the body of the army though... the cavalry is it's arms.

Roman armies can be hard to fight with pikes. As pikemen in phalanx are the antithesis of the agile Roman Legionnaire. But remember, your pikemen can run! And they're usually good at storing their energy. Run to close distances and re-engage into phalanx. And thing that tries to fight that will suffer heavy losses.

But as always, remember the cavalry. They are the most important part of your army.

[Myth]

It's not a matter of agility or even the pila. Urban Cohorts just charge rigth at the MCD phalanx and smash them to bits. Yes outnumbering and outmaneuvering the AI is what does the trick, that's why faction slike Thrace can beat the Brutii when in the hands of a Human. But check this battle out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snzaGHD6NUE

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've watched this actually. I forgot he said the Hoplites are tougher. And they are defense wise. But, I'm still convinced pikes can be better. It's all about mixed units tactics. Longer ranged spears, supported by peltasts and archers can easily dominate a hoplite heavy army. Especially when using the cavalry. Cavalry can destroy the superior hoplite's defensive capabilities by ruining their morale.

This of course requires more money, but not quite. Keeping in mind Macedon's wider array of troops to recruit from, Macedon will always have more tactical flexibility. And if those are used right, then Macedon will win. Macedon and the Greek city states share the Greek Cavalry, and the standard peltasts and archers. (Greek City states also get's a heavy peltast)

Battle's in campaign and online with set money limits are two different things entirely though. The Greek City states does have superior infantry, in some respects, but Macedon has better cavalry. I'll always favor cavalry, myself.

Under the right condition's pikes out-perform hoplites though. And they're also good for mustering large masses of professional soldiers.

[ReluctantSamurai]

One of the things I always do with Macedon's pikemen is to form them into 5 lines instead of the mass they are in default. This gives a wraparound effect when fighting the smaller GC hoplites. I've never conducted 1v1 experiments with pikemen vs hoplites, so I couldn't say who would hold up better in a standup fight. I'm sure someone has, so maybe a hunt for an older topic concerning this is warranted

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I do the same thing ReluctantSamurai. And it tends to work rather well for me. They tend to out-number and out-range the hoplites. Who take heavy casualties before they even engage. But I've never tried it one-on-one in a test. So I can't really say if they're better. Not conclusively anyhow.

They seem better to me, but that might be because of other factors I have going in a battle. Either way they're a dependable unit for any player who has started a game as Macedon.

I think rows of five men deep is historical as well. Which is why I started doing it honestly. But I have noticed it helps the units envelop the enemy.

In the video Myth posted a link to the Hoplites under Prince of Macedon dominate the Royal Pikemen. But we don't know if the opponent maximized the usable space he could have created with his pikes. Also, both players have other troops, so it's not purely a hoplite.vs.pikemen battle. And if it was that would be very boring lol.

Pikes definitely lack the agility of some units, but they offer the ability of denying large areas of the battlefield of being of use to any enemy.

[Myth]

Lategame campaign is equal to unlimited money in MP. Which means 19 units of Spartans and 1 general. Guess who wins? :) Spartan spam is a banned tactic in MP for a reason (even though i don't play MP i know this). Sure hammer and anvil is nice, cav is nice, mobility is nice, chasing down fleeing opponnents is nice. But I'm just saying, 19 units of Spartans will steamroll anything Macedon can throw at them, especially if they waste troop slots on skirmishers/archers. The ideal stack to battle spartan spam is 10 Royal Pikes + 9 Companion cav and 1 general (in SP). But if those Spartans turn around as you attempt to flank them.. Bye bye cavalry!

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've done some tests. And Hoplites certainly win against some pike units. But the lower end one's do not. It depends on the pikes and the Hoplites in question really. That being said... I've modded hoplites into my Macedonian game. Heh. XD

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've done more tests! And have some interesting data to report on. First of all I chose Macedon for my pike unit, Royal Pikemen. By far the best pike unit in the game. Better than the Seleucids Silver shields, and the Pontic Bronze shields. Their attack and defense are higher, so I thought the Royal Pikemen are the pike using world's best bet. For the Hoplites, I chose the Armored Hoplites. The Spartan Hoplites are a bit overkill I thought for the test. More on that latter.

First test, Greek Armored Hoplites vs. Royal Pikemen.

Battleground: Grassy Flatlands.

I commanded the Macedonian Royal Pikemen. I ordered my men to advance and meet with the Hoplites. The longer pikes of my pikemen met with the enemy first and instantly started racking up kills. The status of my pikemen was "Victory seems certain." After a while of protracted hand to hand though, the Hoplites started to fight back hard. My pikemen were taking losses, and our statuses switched places. I ordered them to halt, so they could reform a phalanx. I re-established some control over the battle, but I wasn't happy. I ordered my pikemen to fall back and re-establish a phalanx. This time, I had changed the battle around again. My men were winning and the hoplites were dwindling. In the end, I was left with about 60 pikemen, and there were only about 8 hoplites left.


This battle went to the pikemen. But I have to say, it required a lot of micro-management. Left to battle in hand to hand, the pikemen may lose. I recommend you keep checking on the pikemen's status. And if you can, reforming and counterattacking may be your best option.

Now the Macedonian pike is a good pike unit. Nearly similar to a Hoplite unit in attack and defense. (But far more numerous.) So I had to try another pike unit. Since all of the other top end pikes are pretty identical, I chose the Seleucid Silver Shield Pikemen. I fought the Armored Hoplites again. To be consistent of course.

Same battlefield. Different results.

My pikemen started to dwindle immediately. The rate at which I was losing men was alarming. I wanted to re-form and counter attack, but this didn't help either. I stretched my battle line out to try and envelop my foe, desperately trying to seize some advantage. To no avail. My men continued to fall, and the hoplites were almost unscathed. The few I did kill, I attribute to the first moments of the closing formations. My longer pikes did take some early kills, but as it drug on, this battle clearly went to the Greeks.

Lastly, I tested Macedonian Royal Pikemen against Carthage's Sacred Band. Sacred Band is moderately better than the Greek Armored Hoplites. This went almost just like the Seleucid vs Armored Hoplite battle. My men were falling fast. This time when I tried to re-form, my men turned and fled. This didn't work out good....

So the lesson is, Royal Pikemen are very good. But very good hoplites will beat them. So, for the Macedonian player. Bring cavalry. Alexander the Great knew Macedon's strength was it's cavalry. And remember, it's most important that you have fun. :D

[Bellicin]

Nice testing there, thanks for sharing!

Having just started an imperial campaign as Macedonia (H/H) myself I've discovered two things about pikemen. Firstly the Levy pikemen will usually beat militia hoplites if they both just clash front to front in phalanx formation. Presumably it's the combination of longer spears and larger units that does the trick, but I'm not sure. Secondly I'm fairly certain you can impale your other troops with your phalanxes, so be careful when maneuvering them around. One of my favourite tactics is surrounding incoming hoplites with three units of pikemen in a triangle, and it would appear that if I put them too close to each other they start killing off each other as well as the hoplites. Which I suppose is realistic as we're talking about relatively untrained men with long spears!

Also the spartan hoplites are ridiculously overpowered and I'm grateful not having to face them too often in the imperial campaign. Surrounding them with 600+ levy pikemen, militia and mercenary hoplites in phalanx formation and pounding them with archers and peltasts they still managed to not only stay alive for ages but also kill off half of my troops in the process. The final humilation was when my faction heir and his 40+ strong, three chevrons strong bodyguards charged the last remaining spartan and losing 20 men in the process...

Kind regards

Bellicin

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Nice testing there, thanks for sharing!

Having just started an imperial campaign as Macedonia (H/H) myself I've discovered two things about pikemen. Firstly the Levy pikemen will usually beat militia hoplites if they both just clash front to front in phalanx formation. Presumably it's the combination of longer spears and larger units that does the trick, but I'm not sure. Secondly I'm fairly certain you can impale your other troops with your phalanxes, so be careful when maneuvering them around. One of my favourite tactics is surrounding incoming hoplites with three units of pikemen in a triangle, and it would appear that if I put them too close to each other they start killing off each other as well as the hoplites. Which I suppose is realistic as we're talking about relatively untrained men with long spears!

Also the spartan hoplites are ridiculously overpowered and I'm grateful not having to face them too often in the imperial campaign. Surrounding them with 600+ levy pikemen, militia and mercenary hoplites in phalanx formation and pounding them with archers and peltasts they still managed to not only stay alive for ages but also kill off half of my troops in the process. The final humilation was when my faction heir and his 40+ strong, three chevrons strong bodyguards charged the last remaining spartan and losing 20 men in the process...

Kind regards

Bellicin

Hmm. I've had similar experiences with Spartans. But they die pretty quick if you surround them from all sides.

My faction heir did nearly get himself killed once though.

Yeah that sounds like the same conclusion I've come too. :D The longer pikes seem to fare very well. At least in a supported phalanx. It also depends on what units are involved. Militia Hoplites and Levy Pikemen are pretty close.

I'm not sure about pikes killing your own units. I've had cav run through them before and come out okay. (I like to have Phalanx troops get out of phalanx to let my men through. But sometimes I don't have time.) I suppose it pays to take caution though. And it would be realistic for sure.

Have fun as Macedon friend. :D

[Guyus Germanicus]

I'm not sure about pikes killing your own units. I've had cav run through them before and come out okay. (I like to have Phalanx troops get out of phalanx to let my men through. But sometimes I don't have time.) I suppose it pays to take caution though. And it would be realistic for sure.

Your heavy cavalry are vulnerable to your own phalanx when charging thru them from either direction. I found this out the hard way, but have also noticed it when playing against factions with phalanx troops in battles in the town square. Typically in town square fights, the enemy general will hang back and let his remaining phalanx start it's approach toward your infantry. Then the AI will have the enemy general charge you, but the general charges thru his own phalanx troops from behind. Several of the general's heavy cavalry body guard get killed and sometimes even the general dies in the charge before they even make it to my troops.

I learned about the vulnerability of Macedonian cavalry the hard way, though. I was winning a battle against an enemy force and sent my heavy cavalry, which was lined up in formation behind my phalanx troops, in pursuit. I didn't set my phalanx to standard formation before sending the Macedonians off in pursuit and, sure enough, there was a general slaughter of my prime cavalry as they attacked thru my phalanx even though they were simply passing thru from behind. I was surprised because I never had that problem with Light lancers or Greek cavalry, and usually didn't have it happen with my own generals. But with the heavy cavalry, yes. Why? I have no idea. I can't even think of a good reason why heavy cavalry should be so vulnerable passing through friendly pikes from behind.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Hmm. Well I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I haven't seen it happen to Light Lancers, or Greek Cavalry, but haven't really experienced it with my heavy cavalry. As a rule, I treat my pikes as an obstacle to keep my own men away from as well. They really slow down movement if they're not standing in standard formation.

It would make sense that they could. They're just like a more mobile set of stakes like the longbowmen deploy in M2TW. So I avoid them anyhow, odd that it only effect the heavy cavalry though.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Hmm. Well I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I haven't seen it happen to Light Lancers, or Greek Cavalry, but haven't really experienced it with my heavy cavalry. As a rule, I treat my pikes as an obstacle to keep my own men away from as well. They really slow down movement if they're not standing in standard formation.

I tried setting up some custom battles to test different circumstances with cavalry charging thru friendly pikes from behind. My results were inconsistent. In two different tests using Macedonain phalanx pikemen I sent two different cavalry unit types thru the infantry formation from behind charging at some enemy troops. In the first test I charged the enemy while they were a bit distant from my formation. In that particular case I suffered no cavalry losses with either heavy cavalry or light lancers when they passed thru my infantry line. But when I let the enemy close with my line (but not yet making contact with it) I lost almost 2/3 of my Macedonian cavalry charging thru my pikemen before they even made contact with the enemy units. The light lancers suffered a few casualties doing the same thing but not nearly as many.

In another test I tried charging Sacred band cav and round shields thru a line of Carthaginian Sacred band infantry from behind. The Sacred band heavy cavalry got thru without a problem, but the round shields suffered several losses. So in that case, it was my light cavalry that suffered and not the heavy cavalry. Tis a puzzlement.

So, bottomline, I don't know what to conclude in all this as far as some rule - other than what you yourself suggested in your last post. Simply put, it's a good policy to not charge thru your own pike infantry from behind unless your infantry is in standard formation, because the results are unpredictable.

I shall experiment some more with this.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I'm not sure it would help, but perhaps having your spears/pikes go to loose formation before the cavalry passes through, and then closing ranks after, might help. I use this technique all the time in STW for baiting enemy cavalry chasing my CA's (obviously this is passing front-to-rear through the spears), and to catch an enemy cav unit with my YC, trying to flank, exposing their flank (passing rear-to-front through the spears),...obviously not the same game, but still................

You would probably want some free space in front of your infantry, as you wouldn't want them to be engaged while reforming.......

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Sounds like a good idea Reluctant Samurai. :D

Merely switching the formation from phalanx to turning it off, having them enter standard, suffices though. The men will let the horses through that way. (They have little choice... XD)

[ReluctantSamurai]

Merely switching the formation from phalanx to turning it off, having them enter standard, suffices though.

True enough. However, the cavalry will move much faster and retain their formation better if the infantry unit they pass through gives them more space. Doesn't relate to the lost horsemen problem, but a thought, nonetheless..........

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Yeah, that will get the cavalry through the men quicker for sure.

[Guyus Germanicus]

I'm not sure it would help, but perhaps having your spears/pikes go to loose formation before the cavalry passes through, and then closing ranks after, might help.

That is what I normally do. I was just conducting some controlled tests using the Custom Battle feature of RTW to see what would happen to different types of cavalry units when I don't do that just to see what happens to the cavalry. Typically I will not charge my cavalry thru the rear of my own phalanx infantry line while they are engaging an enemy unit unless it's a moment of desperation i.e., my infantry are threatened by an enemy cavalry unit that has attacked it's flank, or the enemy general is engaging my phalanx'd unit.

So far, it seems RTW shows no particular pattern in my test results. My conclusion being - if you make the mistake of charging your cavalry thru your phalanx from behind without first setting them up in standard formation you should expect some casualties.

Time and again, in real games where I'm closing on the town square inside a city, and the enemy charges cavalry thru their own phalanx units, their cavalry suffers numerous self-inflicted casualties.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Wow. Running through the pikes seems like it'd be safer than running through them. I actually had men run right through my phalanx, head on. Dumb I know, but nobody got killed I don't think. : /

A glitch perhaps? It should certainly kill their own cav. (Though I was glad it didn't.)

[ReluctantSamurai]

Well, you can watch elephants and chariots run over other units without any apparent casualties....at least the AI can do this, so getting cavalry KIA by running through pikes/spears would have to be something to do specifically with spear units

And as an off-topic aside....I just have to LMAO when I see soldiers get up after being struck with onager fire-bombs. Say wha?..................

And Happy B-Day TA

[Tsar Alexsandr]

The AI isn't alone in seeing those casualties heal. I've seen men get right back up after getting struck or crushed by my elephants and chariots as the Seleucids. As well as other elephant-chariot possessing factions.

Ha ha. :D Yeah. Nothing like a guy getting back up after that. I think it's funny whenever my men hit a Centurion or Captian and the guy hops back up. I've even seen more normal troops do that. Um... what? XD It just doesn't make a lot of sense. A hit from an onager should certainly kill. I remember one time, incinerating and entire generals bodyguard and general in one nice salvo. Made a nice general's death video.....

Thank you! Yeah, it's been pretty good so far.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sarissas all had a butt spike. I think the game recognizes that by making them surprisingly lethal from the rear. However, I also suspect it is tied in with the graphics -- spear held level forward etc.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Sarissas all had a butt spike. I think the game recognizes that by making them surprisingly lethal from the rear. However, I also suspect it is tied in with the graphics -- spear held level forward etc.

Ahh yes!! Good thinking Master Moderator. That would make sense.

Long time no see, Seamus. Good to hear from you once again. Hope you are well.