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Thread: Squalor

  1. #1
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default A short investigation of squalor

    For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

    Conclusions
    • I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
    • Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
    • The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
    • You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
    • I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.



    Major Edit:

    Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor:


    Code:
    Sq% 	GH	GV	GP	PCP	IP
    5	1150	1500	1500	1500	1500
    10	1900	3000	3000	3000	3000
    15	2650	4250	4500	4500	4500
    20	3400	5000	6000	6000	6000
    25	3850	5750	7500	7500	7500
    30	4150	6500	9000	9000	9000
    35	4200	7250	10500	10500	10500
    40	4550	8000	12000	12000	12000
    45	N/a	8750	12750	13500	13500
    50	4900	9350	13500	15000	15000
    55	5250	9500	14250	16500	16500
    60	5600	9700	15000	18000	18000
    65	5650	10050	15750	19500	19500
    70	5950	10250	16500	21000	21000
    75	...	10400	17250	22500	22500
    80		10750	18000	24000	24000
    85		10900	18350	24750	25500
    90		11100	18700	25500	27000
    95		11450	18750	26250	28500
    100		11750	19050	27000	30000	Patch 1.2 Limits P/O here
    105		11800	19400	27750	31500
    110		12150	19500	28500	33000
    115		N/a	19750	29250	34500
    120		12500	20100	30000	36000
    125		12850	20250	30750	37500
    130		13200	20450	31500	39000
    135		13250	...	32250	40500
    ...		...		...	...
    250		...		...	61500	Cap for Growth Squalor
    Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
    GH = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's House.
    GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
    GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.
    PCP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Pro-Consul's Palace.
    IP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Imperial Palace.

    NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. Growth rate penalty is capped at 25%, which is reached at a population of 61500 (with the Imperial Palace).

    See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table.

    End of Major Edit



    Methodology

    All right, here's what I did:

    I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

    Immediate effects:

    Squalor: 15% > 125%
    Growth rate: 2% > -21%
    Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
    Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
    Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

    Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

    Squalor: 100%
    Growth rate: -0.5%
    Garrison: 5%
    Taxes: 1224
    Trade: 530

    The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

    In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

    As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

    [*] In another post, I concocted a formula to estimate garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

    NB: These calculations only hold true for large units sizes. The game appears to scale the garrison effect according to the average size of the units in the game. So two units of Hastati have the same relatively effect from small to huge unit sizes. Ergo you need to scale appropriately. Multiple the result of the equation by the following factors to get the right result:
    • 4 for small
    • 2 for normal
    • 0.5 for Huge
    Last edited by therother; 10-01-2005 at 01:02. Reason: Collating data from subsequent studies
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  2. #2
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by therother
    Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...
    Ha, that's certainly true! Ingenious methodology there, nice work.
    Last edited by Tamur; 10-10-2004 at 23:38.
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    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Excellent work, therother. Have another pint from me.

    So, "happy" buildings (other than the "city hall" buildings you describe") do nothing to curb squalor. They only delay squalor's ill effects.

    As I wrote on another forum, the usual formula is an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Maybe the "formula" with squalor is one ounce per ton.
    Last edited by Doug-Thompson; 10-08-2004 at 23:20.
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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Hmm, just starting a more conventional examination of squalor, trying to clarify the relationship between population, squalor and the effect of the 'Town Hall'. I'm still running it, but I thought I should air my preliminary findings/suspicions.

    The problem with the previous investigation was that I never studied the development of squalor with anything lower than an Imperial Palace. With the top level of governance, does seem that a 1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men.

    However, it's becoming clear that is not the case for the lower buildings. It seems to me, from the raw data I'm collecting, that the ratio is closer to ~150 men to 1% increase in squalor. I suppose this is what the game means that squalor will go out of control if you don’t upgrade the governor's residence!

    There are still some a few questions I have. I'm going to upgrade one of my cities, whilst leaving the other to rot with just the Governor's Villa. Hopefully I can more sharply determine the rates, as there are huge error bars on the gradient at the moment!

    PS Cheers Tamur and Doug-Thompson. I was due a Deuchars (obligatory, parochial alcohol reference).
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  5. #5

    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.

    From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.

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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewt
    By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.
    Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to this, "1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men." By that I mean that you will get another squalor icon, which represents 5%, every 1500 men. But I'm about to expand on that massively, as it seems to be much more complex than that, so watch this space.

    Edit: Sorry, I have just got what you meant. I was so engrossed in what I was doing that I just missed what you were saying. I mean 1% public order.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewt
    From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.
    As am I.
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 05:17.
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    Member Member Inuyasha12's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    NOTE: If you want to get architect vice take your general and build several watchtowers and/or forts. He will earn it in no time. I found this out while building watchtowers along my border with one general.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Doesn't "architect" and such come from the academy? I'm not really sure what the building does...I assumed it gave me some nice ancillaries. Some of my really high management, high influence, high star types seem to have no squalor, despite decent populations.

    I've wondered if squalor builds on itself? Seem like you should be rewarded for doing early public water works, roads, walls, and city govt upgrades. On the otherhand, if you did them late it should be slow to fall. Squalor begets squalor.
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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Doesn't "architect" and such come from the academy? I'm not really sure what the building does...I assumed it gave me some nice ancillaries. Some of my really high management, high influence, high star types seem to have no squalor, despite decent populations.
    AFAICT, academies and beyond make it more likely for ancillaries to show up. They are a requirement for some. But the "trigger" for the architect, according to the export_descr_ancillaries.txt file in home/data is:
    Code:
    Trigger trigger_architect
        WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
        Condition SettlementBuildingExists >= proconsuls_palace
              and IsGeneral
    
        AcquireAncillary architect chance  5
    So, if I'm parsing this properly, there is a 5 per cent chance of getting an architect in a settlement that has just build a Pro-Consol's Palace or greater.

    If you want to find the ancillaries that do need the various Academies, open up the file above and search for the "academy", "scriptorium", and "ludus_magnus".

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    I've wondered if squalor builds on itself? Seem like you should be rewarded for doing early public water works, roads, walls, and city govt upgrades. On the otherhand, if you did them late it should be slow to fall. Squalor begets squalor.
    You would think so, but I'm beginning to think not. There seems to be set populations at which squalor will increase. More about this in a bit!
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 04:46.
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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Right, these are the population levels for various levels of squalor with the Governor's Villa:

    Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
    Pop: the population of the settlement.
    Diff: population difference between this squalor level and the last. Iterations are usually 5%, with one exception.
    Men/PO%: the number of men it takes to raise the Public Order (PO) penalty due to squalor by 1 per cent.

    Code:
    Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%  Comment
    5	1500		
    10	3000	1500	300	'Normal' population levels
    15	4250	1250	250		|
    20	5000	750	150		|
    25	5750	750	150		V
    30	6500	750	150	Should be upgrading now!
    35	7250	750	150
    40	8000	750	150
    45	8750	750	150	Given to here for 'free'
    50	9350	600	120	Non-linearity sets in, but only mildly
    55	9500	150	30	Here we go, you're really paying now!
    60	9700	200	40
    65	10050	350	70
    70	10250	200	40
    75	10400	150	30
    80	10750	350	70
    85	10900	150	30
    90	11100	200	40
    95	11450	350	70
    100	11750	300	60
    105	11800	50	10
    110	12150	350	70
    115	N/a			Oddly, this doesn't exist.
    120	12500	350	35
    125	12850	350	70	Growth penalty decouples from order.[*]
    130	13200	350	70
    135	13250	50	10
    ...
    On so on. I don't think it's particularly worthwhile to go on, you get the idea.

    [*] The growth penalty, until this point is a tenth of the public order squalor penalty %, i.e. if squalor takes 2% off your growth rate, it takes 20% of your settlement's loyalty. 125% off loyalty is the hard limit. I put the city up to 50,000 men, and it was still 125%.
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 05:28. Reason: Improving formatting
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    Wait, what? Member Aelwyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    I thought that creating buildings that improve public health would decrease the squalor level, but that doesn't seem to help for me. I upgrade the government building right when I get a chance, and the water supply buildings as soon as I can. But it still seems like squalor is always a problem no matter what.

    I don't like it. Why don't people just get up and clean something. That would help I think.

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    Senior Member Senior Member RedKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Very cool, therother. I'll take a harder look sometime when it's not late Friday night and I've been sharing some beers - virtually. One thing perhaps pounded into the ground but which I don't remember seeing is that, AFAIK, when you make a water building, it doesn't show up as affecting the bottom/negative side of the Details, just the positive/top side. Which is to say it only counters squalor, it doesn't directly affect it.

    Pray tell - what does 'therother' mean? Sounds like a couple of words jammed together - or is it a British term? Er sorry - I meant a Brittania term.

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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by RedKnight
    One thing perhaps pounded into the ground but which I don't remember seeing is that, AFAIK, when you make a water building, it doesn't show up as affecting the bottom/negative side of the Details, just the positive/top side. Which is to say it only counters squalor, it doesn't directly affect it.
    Indeed. I think, personally, it would make more sense if it did actually directly affect squalor. But it doesn't, or at least I haven't been able to discern any noticeable effect, and I've been looking pretty hard!

    I suppose it makes no difference in the end, as the effect of squalor does not seem to be compounded - it increases in predetermined steps based on population and Government building - so it matters little to the squalor level when you build the government buildings: it will drop back to the level, appropriate for your current population, it would have been had you build the new Government building as soon as you could. However, as the table above shows, you start to pay an extra penalty, both in growth rate and public order, for such slovenly practices, and it gets pretty steep.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedKnight
    Pray tell - what does 'therother' mean? Sounds like a couple of words jammed together - or is it a British term? Er sorry - I meant a Brittania term.
    It's just an old nickname, and given the relative paucity of nicknames I had as a kid, I didn't have much of a choice when I was deciding on usernames 10+ years ago. So it has kinda stuck with me, especially online.

    BTW, it's pronounced "The Rother", not "The R Other" as some seem to think!
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 06:45.
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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Right, these are the population levels for various levels of squalor with the Governor's Governor’s Palace:

    Headings are the same as before:

    Code:
    Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%  Comment
    5	1500			
    10	3000	1500	300	
    15	4500	1500	300	
    20	6000	1500	300	Normal Pop Levels
    25	7500	1500	300		|
    30	9000	1500	300		|
    35	10500	1500	300		v
    40	12000	1500	300	Can upgrade to Pro-Consul's
    45	12750	750	150	
    50	13500	750	150	
    55	14250	750	150	
    60	15000	750	150	
    65	15750	750	150	
    70	16500	750	150	
    75	17250	750	150	
    80	18000	750	150	
    85	18350	350	70	
    90	18700	350	70	
    95	18750	50	10	
    100	19050	300	60	
    105	19400	350	70	
    110	19500	100	20	
    115	19750	250	50	
    120	20100	350	70	
    125	20250	150	30	Again, the growth penalty decouples.
    130	20450	200	40	
    ...
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    Consul Senior Member Scipio's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    So is anybody gunna mod squaker to be less devastating? It is really starting to piss me off.
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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Scipio
    So is anybody gunna mod squaker to be less devastating? It is really starting to piss me off.
    Well, I'm not a hardcore modder, but the only thing I could think of that's easily accessible is to mod the traits, so that ever general who's ever in a settlement is given -10 squalor or so.

    I've haven't fully tested this, so if you try backup your files.

    Open home/data/export_descr_character_traits.txt, find this entry
    Code:
       
        Level Great_Builder
            Description Great_Builder_desc
            EffectsDescription Great_Builder_effects_desc
            Epithet Great_Builder_epithet_desc
            Threshold  36 
    
            Effect Influence  1 
            Effect Construction  15 
            Effect Squalor -3
    Change Effect Squalor -3 to whatever you want, and perhaps remove the other effects.

    So you could change it to:
    Code:
        Level Great_Builder
            Description Great_Builder_desc
            EffectsDescription Great_Builder_effects_desc
            Epithet Great_Builder_epithet_desc
            Threshold  36 
    
            Effect Squalor -10
    Then search further down for:
    Code:
     Trigger governor_building
        WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
    
        Condition GovernorInResidence
    
        Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  20
    Change to:
    Code:
    Trigger governor_building
        WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
    
        Condition Condition EndedInSettlement
    
        Affects GoodBuilder  36  Chance  100
    If you want the game to display the right figures, you'll need to edit the appropriate line in home/data/text/export_VnVs.txt

    I've had a quick check and it seems to work quite well. A few only get Excellent Builder, but that's better than nothing I suppose. The Great Builder guys put a 80% Public order cap on squalor, even in the largest of large cities, and will eliminate it in all but larger Large cities. It's crude, I know, but hopefully it'll tide you over until one of the modders gets into gear.

    Remember to backup those files, and - if RTW's files are anything like MTW's - be sure to put exact the right spaces, tabs, etc in the file. Do one thing at a time, and check that RTW still loads. Run the game with the "-show_err” command for help if you make a mistake. CA says that it should give you more information about what went wrong in the error checking.

    Edit: You could also mod a health building, but that would just counter the effect, not reduce squalor itself. I suppose you could mod the health building to actually combat squalor. The advantage of this would be that you could remove the mod without affecting the game, whereas all family members in the game are permanently modified in the mod below. Also squalor could be tackled in all your settlements without the need for family members.

    For example, in home/export_descr_buildings.txt:

    Code:
            sewers requires factions { ct_carthage, egyptian, greek, roman, }  and building_present_min_level market trader
            {
                capability
                {
                    population_health_bonus bonus 1
                }
                construction  2 
                cost  800 
                settlement_min large_town
                upgrades
                {
                    baths
                }
            }
    And edit the population_health_bonus bonus to something larger. You would either want to mod the upgrades or just remember not to build them as it would remove your extra bonus. You might also want to let the other factions in on the scheme.
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 10:37.
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    good work. I will comment after i understood everything.

  18. #18

    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Is it possible to mod the game so that squalor only have half the loyalty effect it has right now ?
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    Member Member CrackedAxe's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    I'm just a couple of decades into my Briton campaign, and it concerns me that I cant upgrade the cities here past the minor stage, but the population keeps on growing. Is the squalor going to spiral out of control?

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    Senior Member Senior Member Dorkus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Very interesting post.

    I believe you're over-complicating garrison effects. however. I'm pretty sure it's just 0.5% pop for 5% order, up to 80% max effect.

    Edit: actually it's more like 0.4 or 0.45% pop for 5% order, but at low levels and normal+ unit size, that's pretty much the same thing.

    At least that's what I got when i played around with it a while ago. The relationship does seem to be linear, whatever the precise constant and rounding method. I usually multiply pop% by 12, round up at 2.5 increments, and get the right figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by therother
    For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

    Conclusions
    • I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
    • Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
    • The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
    • You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
    • I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.


    Methodology

    All right, here's what I did:

    I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

    Immediate effects:

    Squalor: 15% > 125%
    Growth rate: 2% > -21%
    Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
    Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
    Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

    Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

    Squalor: 100%
    Growth rate: -0.5%
    Garrison: 5%
    Taxes: 1224
    Trade: 530

    The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

    In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

    As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

    [*] In another post, I concocted a formula for garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

    Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...


    Major edit

    Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor.

    Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
    GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
    GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.

    Code:
    Sq%	GV	GP
    5	1500	1500
    10	3000	3000
    15	4250	4500
    20	5000	6000
    25	5750	7500
    30	6500	9000
    35	7250	10500
    40	8000	12000
    45	8750	12750
    50	9350	13500
    55	9500	14250
    60	9700	15000
    65	10050	15750
    70	10250	16500
    75	10400	17250
    80	10750	18000
    85	10900	18350
    90	11100	18700
    95	11450	18750
    100	11750	19050
    105	11800	19400
    110	12150	19500
    115	N/a	19750
    120	12500	20100
    125	12850	20250
    130	13200	20450
    135	13250
    ...
    NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. I don't believe there is, in any practical sense, a similar limit for the growth rate penalty.

    See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table
    Last edited by Dorkus; 10-09-2004 at 15:58.

  21. #21
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

    For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

    However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Dorkus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

    For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

    However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?
    don't think it makes a difference. pop is pop. note that 300 men will not affect squalor at all (unless you're on the marign), since the game moves in 5% increments.

  23. #23
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedAxe
    I'm just a couple of decades into my Briton campaign, and it concerns me that I cant upgrade the cities here past the minor stage, but the population keeps on growing. Is the squalor going to spiral out of control?
    Barbarians can't upgrade cities beyond minor city status, so can't get a hold of further upgraded farms, growth temples, and the like. Therefore, if CA has done its numbers right, your squalor should start to balance out your growth rate long before you'd reach the 125% Public Order Maximum, by virtue of the growth rate squalor penalties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka
    Is it possible to mod the game so that squalor only have half the loyalty effect it has right now ?
    I don't know of a way. A trait (or building) that has an effect of (+/-) 10 is a 50% effect. However, this doesn't mean a 50% reduction of the current squalor level, but a 50% absolute reduction: it will reduce 10 from the squalor icons in public order calculation, whether you have 10 to subtract or not. Example: You have 80% Public order disruption due to squalor (16 squalor icons appear). You put a governor with -10 squalor in the settlement, and it will go down to 30%, rather than 40%. Further example, you have 20%, and move him in. Squalor will disappear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus
    I believe you're over-complicating garrison effects. however. I'm pretty sure it's just 0.5% pop for 5% order, up to 80% max effect.
    Quite possible. I only graphed a handful of points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus
    Edit: actually it's more like 0.4 or 0.45% pop for 5% order, but at low levels and normal+ unit size, that's pretty much the same thing.

    At least that's what I got when i played around with it a while ago. The relationship does seem to be linear, whatever the precise constant and rounding method. I usually multiply pop% by 12, round up at 2.5 increments, and get the right figure.
    Hmm, perhaps I'm not following your method properly? For the example above, we have 400 men in a settlement of 4500. That means the garrison is 8.9% the size of the settlement. It has a 60% garrison bonus reported.

    I calculate, by your method, it should be around 100% (~12*9). I did think that it might be the difficulty level, but I started a very hard and an easy campaign game, and in both my formula worked quite well.

    To make it a rule of thumb, you should multiple Garrison % (*) by 7 and subtract 2.5 or 3. As you say, the maximum is 80%, and perhaps the minimum is 5%?

    (*) [(garrison size/settlement population)*100]

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?
    Dorkus is right: it doesn't matter how the population changes, the effect on squalor is the same.
    Last edited by therother; 10-09-2004 at 20:15.
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Dorkus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    What example are you referring to?

    In my experience, multipying % of pop by 12, then rounding up at units of 2.5 (so if you have 6.1% garrison * 12=73.2 rounded up to 75% order), always gets you within 5% of the actual value.

    I haven't tested this rigorously, however. The way I did it originally was I took like 20 units of peasants (at normal unit size) in and out of a huge city and that ratio jumped out.

    Since then, I haven't noticed huge deviatinos from that ratio, but then again I haven't paid too close attention, since I generally don't have too many problems with order.

    btw, i'm on vh/vh. so the differnece isn't because of my difficulty level.
    Last edited by Dorkus; 10-09-2004 at 20:17.

  25. #25
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus
    What example are you referring to?
    In the middle of the starting post of the thread, the one you've quoted in its entirety, are the following two examples.

    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
    -2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

    It was comparison of the garrison effect before and after changing the settlement population from 4500 to 30000. The game reported the garrison as 60% to 5%, which was borne out by my calculations above.
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member Dorkus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    just pulled out an old save game and used the multiply by 12 method on about 20 provinces ranging from 700 pop to huge city size. Seems to get it right within 5% for all of them.

    Are you sure you have the 400/4500 city correct?
    Last edited by Dorkus; 10-09-2004 at 20:35.

  27. #27
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus
    Are you sure you have the 400/4500 city correct?
    100% correct. But I've discovered why we are diverging. It's the unit sizes. You're on normal and I'm on large. The game scales the garrison effect accordingly.
    Nullius addictus iurare in uerba magistri -- Quintus Horatius Flaccus

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  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Dorkus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by therother
    100% correct. But I've discovered why we are diverging. It's the unit sizes. You're on normal and I'm on large. The game scales the garrison effect accordingly.
    ah of coruse. *bonks head*


    ca really shouldn't have done that though. if you get the gain, you should bear the pain.
    Last edited by Dorkus; 10-09-2004 at 20:45.

  29. #29
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    I should point out, if only for completeness, that the relationship between size of the garrison and the settlement population in determining the garrison public order effect is in fact non-linear. Best fit I've had to my data (excluding high order polynomials, of course) is a sum of decaying exponentials, but it's quite complex and not really very useful for a quick calculation of how many men you need to pacify a troublesome settlement, especially as it's quite linear in the normal ranges. The rules of thumb that Dorkus and I detail above should suffice, with the simple proviso (for my rule) that you should scale the figure by the following factors depending on the unit size setting:

    • 4 for small
    • 2 for normal
    • 0.5 for Huge
    Last edited by therother; 10-10-2004 at 16:35.
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  30. #30
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short investigation of squalor

    Here's the Imperial Palace data.

    Note: I deleted the old post by accident. The data in this one is identical.

    Code:
    Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%
    5	1500		
    10	3000	1500	300
    15	4500	1500	300
    20	6000	1500	300
    25	7500	1500	300
    30	9000	1500	300
    35	10500	1500	300
    40	12000	1500	300
    45	13500	1500	300
    50	15000	1500	300
    55	16500	1500	300
    60	18000	1500	300
    65	19500	1500	300
    70	21000	1500	300
    75	22500	1500	300
    80	24000	1500	300
    85	25500	1500	300
    90	27000	1500	300
    95	28500	1500	300
    100	30000	1500	300
    105	31500	1500	300
    110	33000	1500	300
    115	34500	1500	300
    120	36000	1500	300
    125	37500	1500	300
    130	39000	1500	300
    135	40500	1500	300
    Last edited by therother; 10-11-2004 at 01:34.
    Nullius addictus iurare in uerba magistri -- Quintus Horatius Flaccus

    History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there -- George Santayana

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