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Thread: Medieval - Total War mod

  1. #31
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Also, just one idea with the Russians/Volga Bulgarians which I think is pretty cool. Most of the wars fought between them were not so much for territorial aquisition, but for influence over the minor tribes. To represent this, you could have about half a dozen units that can only be built in a couple of provinces, like the Spartan Hoplites in RTW. CA did this by having spartan troops requiring an invisible resource, called 'Sparta'. You will need to have a building that can be built by Novogrod, Kievan Rus and the Volga Bulgarians, maybe the Cumans too. The units would add something to the army list, and would be better than just mercenaries, as anybody can just wander in and hire them, and it is more realistic that only the Steppe factions can build them. Also, this would mean that not so many units are required in those factions army lists, and so frees up some unit space. I can supply the names and descriptions of the tribal troops, but from your XL mod there would be the Bashkorts, buildable in the Volga Bulgarian home provinces, and the Chernye Klobuki, buildable in the Kievan Rus home provinces (although they were historically much more widespread). I have some others, but still finalising information for them.

    While on the subject of the Rus, here is a website describing arms and armour that might be useful to you.

    http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory...mor/partii.htm

  2. #32
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    thanks for that info faisal, I'm not really 100% sure on the Muslim factions, I knew that the Almoravids were invited into Spain to help the local Muslim chieftains defend against the reconquista and then took power, then the Almohads took over from them, but one thing I'm not sure about, were they actually a different people or not? I was under the impression they were, or were they just different sects or 'political parties' for want of a better term in Islamic North Africa? This has been bugging me for ages, and I haven't really found a good answer on it yet.

  3. #33
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Well racially they were different iirc both Almohads and Almoravids were from different berber tribes from southern morroco and algeria, both have different ideaologies, but are not different sects you can call them political parties if you will.

    The Almoravids (corrupted from Al Murabiteen/Murabitin) were formed to defend Muslim spain from the christian kingdoms in the north (hence the name Al Murabiteen, defence of Islam), their domain was around Morroco and southern Spain, they also established Al Ribat (stems from the word Murabit), they were usurped by the Almohads after the death of one of their leaders (can't recall the name). The Almohads(corrupted from Al Muwahideen) were formed on a pretty extreme ideaology wich is to unite the world under the banner of Islam (comes from Tawhid or Muwahid i think which means unity). The Almohads were initally succeeding by expanding much further in north africa than the Almoravids, and also partially in spain, but internal problems, the Merinid revolt in Marrakesh, and Granada's Revolt and also external problems, defeat at Navas de Tolosa (called al Kark by the arabs) and the Reconquista lead to its downfall.

  4. #34
    Member Member Lord_Winter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Okey more questions...

    Will you use hidden resources or other limitations to create region specific units...

    Will the campaign map be changed...since Byzantines are not that well represented by the current one at least not in a 1206 setting and I think it would be even worse to try represent central europe, france and england with the current map...

  5. #35
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Great idea VH!!!
    I wich i could help but i have problems with my internet provider :(
    AS an advice the Knights of honour demo has shield and banners for more than 100 factions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I wish you good luck and if my internet stability is solved my email is arxidamos2003@yahoo.gr

    Hellenes
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  6. #36
    Member Member VikingHorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @Armchair Athlete
    As always, you have a lot of good ideas. The mod should be historycal correct, so your russian ideas could be cool.

    @faisal
    Thanks for the info. I don't know much about muslim factions so any info on them is good.

    @Lord_Winter
    I don't know much about the hidden resources yet because I have only at this time made new units. I would like to add a good amount of region specific units.
    The campaign map will be totaly redone, because the current one isn't that good of the medieval period. I hope to add about 150-200 provinces with 32 factions and as meny units as possible.

    @hellenes
    Thanks for letting me know about the game, I will check it out. Any help help with the mod is welcome.

    MTW XL version 3.0 out now! Get it here:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31201

  7. #37
    Member Member VikingHorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty peasant
    Hi everyone! Nice work on those knights ! Ive done some medieval units and posted the screens on http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...howtopic=13162 and http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/fo...showtopic=2089 maybe they
    will be useful for MTW mod
    Good work on those units. I could use some of them, the rest would be good for the Citadel: Total War mod because of the high amount of armour.

    MTW XL version 3.0 out now! Get it here:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31201

  8. #38
    Member Member Dirty peasant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Ive posted archive on twcenter forum

  9. #39
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @faisal
    Thanks for the info. I don't know much about muslim factions so any info on them is good.
    Pleased to help

    I'll try my best answering any further questions so keep em coming, i don't know all Muslim factions like turkish factions for example, i'm not that knowledgable on them, hopefully one of the resident turkish forummers might know about it, but i know north african and arab factions.

  10. #40
    Member Member Thedevil003's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir-san
    This sounds good. Silver Rush, are you still interested in hosting the mod at SCC? VikingHorde has agreed a bit ago...
    OT:
    Really? I see a thread here at the .org, a thread at TWC in which two other members, at twc have made units and map modification, but none at SSC. Quit spamming these boards with your advertisements, this isn’t a competition. Sad, I think.

  11. #41
    Magistrate of Pirkka Member Sebastian Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    How big map are you going to use? Is sweeden and finland going
    to have land connection? And how much russia will there be?
    Humans very easy to make and very hard to understand. - SS

  12. #42
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    OK here is a preliminary army list for the cumans. Its just some ideas for them, there are no Cuman sources of writing so it is reliant on others, such as the Rus and Byzantine. As such, there is not much description of Cuman terms, so to name the troops I have had to use things like 'Cuman Warriors', 'Cuman Cavalry' etc. Usually I don't like using these generic terms, but in this case it is unaviodable. I have also done a basic bit of stats, of course this could be subject to balance changes but it will give you a general idea about how good each troop should be. I have also put what 'tier' they might be built in, like how in RTW there are 5 different tiers corresponding to town hall sizes. As CA has said that population levels are hardcoded, I think they will have to stay the way they are. I have not put poor morale as a trait for any units, because I think it was a good move with your XL mod to raise morale of all units by a small amount, and one that this mod could benefit from. Finally here is a website that has pictures of cuman warriors, weapons and some buildings. Should help with the artwork http://www.kipchak.com/interested/

    Eastern Militia - attack 3 defense 5 (shield 3 armour 0 skill 2) weapon - spear men - 80 cost - 100 upkeep - 80 Tier - 1
    Generic Eastern Militia unit. Buildable by the Rus, Novogrod, Armenians, Georgians, Cumans and Byzantines. Nothing special really, just a cheap garrison unit, built when nothing else is available. Due to the limited number of units, I thought that the lower level units should be mostly generic (like in MTW).

    Eastern Spearmen - attack 4 defense 8 (shield 4 armour 1 skill 3) weapon - spear men - 120 cost - 175 upkeep - 120 Tier - 2
    Generic Eastern Spear unit. Buildable by the aforementioned eastern factions.

    Eastern Skirmishers - missile attack 7 melee attack 3 defense - 4 (shield 3, skill 1) weapon - Javelin men 80 cost 135 upkeep 110 Tier 1
    Generic Eastern Skirmisher. Throws Javelins. Vulnerable to missiles.

    Eastern Archers - missile attack 7 melee attack 2 defense 3 (skill 3) weapon short bow men 80 cost 225 upkeep 170 Tier 2
    Generic Eastern Archer. Shoots arrows. Vulnerable to missiles.

    Horse Archers - missile attack 7 melee attack 2 defense 2 (skill 2) weapon short bow men 54 cost 440 upkeep 150 Tier 2
    Generic Horse Archer. Vulnerable to missiles. Shoots arrows.

    Cuman Warriors - missile attack 9 melee attack 10 defense 10 (armour 1, shield 4, skill 5) weapon short bow men 80 cost 500 upkeep 220 Tier 3
    Cuman Warriors are archers that also have decent close combat statistics. Same as the Cuman Warriors in your XL Mod. One of only two half decent Cuman foot units, most of their units are mounted. Better shooters than normal archers too, to represent the more powerful eastern compund bow. I feel that they should not get the long range tag however, as bows were almost always outranged by crossbows.

    Pecheneg Auxiliaries - attack 7 defense 13 (shield 6, skill 6, armour 1) weapon spear men 120 cost 450 upkeep 220 Tier 3
    When the Cumans made their push to the western steppes, they defeated the Pechenegs, another nomadic steppe people. They crushed a large horde of Pechenegs near the Danube river with the help of the Byzantines. The defeated Pechnegs either fled or were absorbed into the Cuman armies. As the mongols were later to do, the Cumans mostly made them fight dismounted and ahead of the standard Cuman troops, to help stop them fleeing. They could either fight, or run and be shot down by the Cumans behind them. Despite all this, they were still skilled fighters. For balance reasons too I thought they should have spears to help defend against cavalry, and as a cheap anchor for the Cuman battle line. There is no clear historical reference as to how they were equipped, so you have a bit of liberty here to do what you like. Here they have a large shield

    Cuman Cavalry - missile attack 9 melee attack 6 defense 7 (shield 4, skill 3) weapon short bow men 54 cost 600 upkeep 220 Tier 3
    The bulk of the Cuman army was made up of these cavalry archers. Fast, with small shields and armed with compound bows, they are much more dangerous than standard horse archers, and can fight in close combat if need be, although their only hand to hand weapon is the Turkish knife. Note they are NOT vulnerable to missiles. They should be quite similar to the Parthian cavalry in RTW. At the website I wrote earlier they have heaps of pictures of Cuman cavalry.

    Cuman Raiders - missile attack 7 melee attack 10 defense 9 (armour 1, skill 4, shield 4) weapon axe men 54 cost 700 upkeep 250 Tier 4
    Cumans were fond of raids, a noticeable one being the sack of Kiev. These Cuman cavalry are armed with axes, to hammer down wooden doors in the search for loot. They are also armed with a few javelins, to pepper enemy formations before closing in for the kill. Once again, for balance reasons I thought the Cumans should get an axe wielding unit, to help them out against armoured apponents (in RTW some armour is ignored). Also gave them javelins, as they were a weapon used by Cuman cavalry, but not very often. They would make good flanking units, but are still fairly fragile for a tier 4 unit, so aren't too strong I think.

    Cuman Heavy Cavalry - attack 9 defense 20 (skill 5, armour 15) weapon Lance men 54 cost 1100 upkeep 375 Tier 5
    Cuman Heavy cavalry are well armoured cavalry lancers, able to smash and trample enemy formations. Armed with a Lance for a devestating charge, they are the decisive arm of the Cuman forces. They will have a hard time catching more nimble lighter cavalry, and will only be able to fight them if they somehow corner them. These would be the same as the Cuman Heavy cavalry in your XL mod. They should take two turns to build, to represent their scarcity, and should only be buildable in the Cuman home provinces. They have no shield, like the Scythian Nobles in RTW.

    Cuman Noble Cavalry - missile attack 9 defense 15 (skill 5, shield 4, armour 6) weapon bow men varies cost none (generals bodygaurd unit) upkeep varies Tier all
    Cuman Noble cavalry are armoured cavalry archers, well able to shoot opponents from a distance before closing in for the kill in Hand to Hand combat. The Cuman generals and their gaurdsmen were well versed in use of the Bow and other Cuman weapons. This would be a generals bodygaurd unit for the Cumans. they would look similar to Steppe heavy Cavalry from MTW. I also thought giving them bows would be a good idea, as it seems at the moment the generals in RTW are a bit suicidal, so maybe it will help stop them charging enemy spear formations, as they would be shooting from behind the line. As the unit is quite small, this is not too overpowered I think.


    Well thats what I have got for the Cumans, a nomadic, predominately cavalry army is how they operated historically, and this can translate into the game with all cavalry armies intially attacking enemy settlements, with infantry detachments marching up behind to help assault the town. The cavalry armies will also help to represent their fast raiding nature. Tell me if there is anything you dont like about the list and I will change it. Once again statistics are only meant as a rough guide to how effective they should be.

    EDIT - 11 new units
    Last edited by Armchair Athlete; 10-28-2004 at 02:49.

  13. #43
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Great job armchair athlete, you wouldn't mind if i borrow your style of describing units?

    I'll put up a unit list for Almohad/Almoravid and Abassid armies, maybe a bit of the egyptians too. Most Islamic armies had an emphasis on attack over defence, good weapons but light armour.

    Anyways i'll do the foot units first and i'll post em up here if anyone wouldn't mind...

  14. #44
    Member Member VikingHorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @Sebastian Seth
    I hope to get the original map extended and make new redo most/all the provinces. The map should be extended north and east with most of sweden, norway and bigger parts of Russia on the map. I don't know how much im going to make of the map, because a lot of modders have joined the last few days. There will only be landbriges if the land is connected on the map.

    @Armchair Athlete
    Nice work, that should get things started

    MTW XL version 3.0 out now! Get it here:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31201

  15. #45
    Member Member Lord_Winter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Lost a longer post but...

    Here is a list of Byzantines units not complete or entirly reserched since I'm putting it into print with only the reasources of my minor library and of course the net...however also note that I will compile a quiet short list of actual units and one as long of mercenaries since in both the early and the late age the Byzantines where once more turning away from the tried and proved Thematic system towards the unreliable mercenaries...and somewhere around 1261 (the recapture of constantinople) their reliance was fast becoming their doom...since they no longer had the ecconomy to support this type of warfare...

    Also some general thoughts...the Byzantine infantry should be overpriced or in some other way less attractive then equal infantry of other nations making cavalry a more attractive choice since 2/3 of the armies most often was just cavalry....also mercenaries should be attracted at high rates in at least Constantinopel and probalby Nicea and Greece (in M:TW terms)...

    Early Cavalry
    Thematic Kataphracts : The remnants of the more and more disfunktioning Thematic system...the texture could easily be something along the lines of the partian chatapract or cappudocian cavalry...with small changes possibly the addition of the bow...
    Statistics: V High Defence, V High Charge, Good Attack, Good Moral, Wedge formation

    Kataphracts Archers : Since the Byzantine heavy cavalry often used bow and lance the best would be to have a single Catapract unit with both however if this is not possible two would do...
    Statistics: High Defence (more lightly armoured rider), Good Charge, Good Attack, Good Moral, (NOTE: No circle thing like other horse archers got...however possibly the wedge)

    Both Era Cavalry
    Pronoiarios : Soldiers which where paid in land or lesser nobles which had been given enought land to send someone else...usually of less quality then the catapract however more common in later times...the pronoia should have lance however with lot less armour then catatanks, possibly only a small round shield, open helmet and chainmail...
    Statistics: Good Defence, V High Charge, Good Attack, Good Moral, Wedge

    Light Pronoiarios : Se above but equipted
    Even lighter armour, bows and short spears as swifter and nearly horse archer like but also adequate in close combat...
    Statistics: Normal in most stuff, Good Moral, Good Charge, Possibly Good Attack

    Noble Retianers : The great land owning nobles in lesser asia are rich and have quiet some entourages of heavy horsemen. These horsmen are lighter then the traditional Katapractoi and heavier then the Pronoiarios however they are also less discplined and harder to control. The also lack the any distance weapons...
    Statistics: V High Charge, V Good Attack, Good Moral, Good Defence, Impetious, Wedge,

    Armenian Heavy Cavalry : During a long period of Byzantine history the orthodox cristians of armenia where at the forefront of battle against the diverse enemies of the emperor...sometimes semi independant, sometimes part of the empire and sometimes in full war...no theme fed more rebellious warlords, nobles and wannebe emperors then armeniacon...here the great landlords ruled absolut for long times...Trainable in eastern parts of the empire...(current pontus, ancyra and manzaka) historically these units lost use as the eastern provinces where lost...
    Statistics : High Charge, Good Attack, Good Defencem, Good Moral, Wedge

    Late Cavalry
    Stratiotai : Byzantine cavalry with a mix of byzantine and western gear such as true lances and heavier plate armour...but still with a special eastern touch...no bows however this is done with the early....
    Statistics: V High Defence, V High Charge, V Good Attack, Good Moral, Wedge formation

    Infantry: (All byzantine infantry should have slightly higher upkeep and cost then regular units of their kind due that Byzantine armies usually relied on their supperior cavalry...inf should be supportive never dominate their armies..)
    Eastern Militia: Look above...Byzantine Militia was used soley for the defence of fortresses and strongholds and are therfore sub standard in the otherwise quiet well trained army...

    Psiloi: The main part of the byzantine fot folk is made up of light foot men with bow, swords and a small shield...these units used the slightly supperior eastern composite bows...
    Statistics: Common archers with a slightly more powerful bow

    Skutatoi: Skutatoi as the common fotmen or spearmen of the Byzantine armies are often called carried a larger shield and long spear and often opperated in mixed formations with bows (which we will be unable to recreate i guess)...
    Statistics: Slightly supperior to common spears mostly moral wise and with large shields...

    Ethnic Inf : Either turkish/armenian in the east or slavic/albanian in the west these units where of lower quality then the skutatoi but often of more use on the offence...light armour...helmets...shields and swords or other short close combat weapons...
    Statistics: A weak swords unit...which probably holds until the cavalry comes...possibly easier to hide in trees and other terrain...

    Varagian Guard: The famous russ/norse/britton viking bodyguard of the Emperor possibly a generals unit otherwise a powerful infantry unit which should either be to expencive for mass production or take 3+ turns to build to make it unattractive enought to only appear in small quiantities...Great Axes and heavy chainmails are their weapons...possibly also a shield used against arrows before the battle is closed...
    Statistics: V Good Attack, Heavy Armour, V Good Charge, V Good Moral,

    Mercenaries
    Russ Infantry (Vikings from M:TW) (EARLY)
    Pesheng Horse Archers/Scyticon (HA...like those in R:TW already) (EARLY)
    Normand Knights (Early Knights) (EARLY)
    Normand Retainers (Think mounted sergeants but useful) (EARLY)
    Normand Sergeants (Spearmen...of good quality but poor moral) (EARLY)
    Scythicon (horse archers...possibly with spears and bows) (Both)
    Latinicon (Feudal Knights for Hire) (LATE)
    Italic Crossbowmen (Italian sergenats with crossbows) (LATE)
    Turkopoloi (Both fot and horse Turkish units) (Both)
    Alan Cavalry (M:TW) (Both)
    Catalan Great Company (no idea how to implement them since they were many thousand strong but it would be cool to do so...these guys kicked first the turkish in lesser asia soundly...then when the emperor payed them in false coinage they rebelled and threw back at least two byzantine armies without any major losses as well as rampaged from near Constantinopel to Grece devestating the country side for a long while...in greece they conquered i think it was Achea from the reigning Latin Duke...also a unbleivable victory...)

    Okey this was what got out of my mind...not as good as the first list i did but I will complement it in time...there are certainly some errors in spelling above which I fault tiredness and irritation of stupid forums for...
    Last edited by Lord_Winter; 10-26-2004 at 20:07.

  16. #46
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by faisal
    Great job armchair athlete, you wouldn't mind if i borrow your style of describing units?
    Go for it mate, I'm interested to see what you'll put Hopefully in the next few days time I'll put up a list for the Armenians

    EDIT - nice list Lord Winter, with the Catalan Grand Comany (pretty good weren't they?!) they mostly consisted of Almughavars (a rarely seen unit from MTW). When I get around to doing the Aragonese I'll put some stuff on them.
    Last edited by Armchair Athlete; 10-27-2004 at 01:29.

  17. #47
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Well, sitting here bored, so I might as well put up the Armenians now. Unofrtunately there are not a lot of pictures as to what the Armenian soldiers looked like, and Armenian sources (like most other Medieval sources) are more concerned with describing exploits of the Kings rather than what soldiers were called, or how they were equipped. At the start of the game period, the Armenians were still very much an eastern faction, but through contact with the crusaders, became gradually more westernised, ending up with western style knights. Some historically correct names have been used, but others have had to be vague. This website gives at least some pictures on the Armenians. http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm

    Eastern Militia - already done earlier

    Eastern Spearmen - already done earlier

    Eastern Archers - already done earlier

    Eastern Skirmishers - already done earlier

    Horse Archers - already done earlier

    Caucasian Mountaineers - attack 8 defense 7 (shield 3, armour1, skill 3) weapon small sword/knife men 80 cost 200 upkeep 140 Tier 2
    When the Armenian Naxarars (lords) fled Armenia from the onslught of the Seljuk turks, they bought their retinues and warriors with them. Caucasian mountaineers were one group of mercanaries that fought for the Armenians, for the promise of plunder. They are tough fighters, having lived in harsh mountain regions, however are not well equipped and will not stand up to more heavily armed troops. They are experts at hiding in various terrain types.

    Armenian Infantry - attack 8 defense 13 (shield 6, armour 3, skill 4) weapon sword or other hand weapon men 80 cost 350 upkeep 175 Tier 3
    The bulk of the Armenian army is made up their infantry. When Armenia was governed by the Byzantines, large numbers were drafted into the Byzantine army, and many posts in Asia Minor were manned by Armenian troops. After the Byzantine defeat at Manzikert (spelling?) and Asia Minor subsequently being overrun by the Seljuk turks, the Armenian militia members left the byzantine army to return to their homelands, and to the new Armenian province of Silicia. These would be like the ones in your XL mod.

    Armenian Borderers - attack 10 defense 10 (shield 4, armour 1, skill 5) weapon axe men 60 cost 375 upkeep 195 Tier 3
    The passes in the mountainous areas surrounding both the Armenian homelands as well as Armenian Cilicia are patrolled by these border gaurds. They can hide anywhere, and many a Turkish raid has been stopped before their targets by a well timed charged from the border gaurds, suprising and defeating them. Because ambushing was the best way to defeat the Turkish invaders, heavy equipment cannot be taken, and so these men should not be used for the front line of a battle, but for hiding and ambushing unwary opponents. Only buildable in the Armenian home provinces, plus the Armenian home kingdom (currently owned by the Seljuk Turks).

    Early Didebuls - attack 8 defense 15 (shield 6, armour 4, skill 5) weapon spear men 54 cost 550 upkeep 250 Tier 4
    Didebuls were the minor land owning classes in Armenia, comparable to the feudal knights of Western Europe. They were responsible for security of the surrounding area, and so needed to be skilled with use of arms, favouring use of horses. Like many Armenians, they left their ravaged homelands and journeyed to Cilicia. This uit would represent the Armenians before they had great contact with the crusaders, and so their appearance would definately be eastern. They are spear armed cavalry, and so would have a strong charge. Like in your XL mod.

    Latin Auxiliaries - attack 11 defense 17 (shield 6, armour 5, skill 6) weapon spear men 60 cost 700 upkeep 275 Tier 4
    When the crusaders first came into contact with the Armenians in Cilicia, they were pleased to have some friendly neighbours. After the crusaders were successful in capturing Jerusaleum, and the subsequent infighting between the states, many went on to act as Mercenaries to other Christian powers nearby, such as Armenia. Their amount was bolstered by large numbers of crusaders leaving the fourth crusade shortly after the capture of Constantinople. They are expensive to use, but have good experience from fighting a variety of enemies, and so can be relied upon in battle.

    High Didebuls - attack 10 defense 23 (shield 6, armour 12, skill 5) weapon lance men 54 cost 1150 upkeep 400 Tier 5
    Contact with the crusaders led to many of their practices being adopted by the Armenians, including their arms and armour. The Didebuls, minor landowning classes, became heavily armoured knights, able to defeat most opponents they can catch. It is tremendously expensive to equip a warrior in this fashion, but the results are often worth the cost! The high didebuls should take two turns to build, and once again only be buildable in the Armenian home provinces, but not the old Armenian Kingdom. They would look like the ones in your XL mod.

    Hospitaller Foot Knights - attack 13 defense 23 (shield 6, armour 10, skill 7) weapon sword men 40 cost 900 upkeep 350 Tier 5
    The Knights Hospitaller were founded originally to gaurd hospitals for pilgrims in the holy land, but soon evolved into a fully fledged fighting order. Only nobility could be accepted, and had to undertake strict vows to join. The Knights hospitaller were all full time elite knights, rarely running from battle and fighting on against desperate odds! The Knights hospitaller also had many estates in Aragon and assisted in the reconquista, and were also given many border estates by the Cilician armenians, to act as a buffer against the Turks. They could fight just as effectively dismounted as they could mounted. They should take two turns to build, but not receive any territorial restrictions, as historically they had a vast range of estates. They are good, but expensive, and they are a small unit too, so I hope that this balances them well.

    Eastern Crossbows - missile attack 12 melee attack 4 defense 8 (skill 4, armour 4) weapon crossbow men 80 cost 550 upkeep 200 Tier 5
    generic eastern Crossbow uit. The reason I think they should be high tier is because they are very good shooters, and will outrange bows, and are an excellent counter to horse archers (as they were historically). As horse archers are vulnerable to missiles, and have shorter range, it would be too unbalancing if crossbows could be had earlier, and factions like the Cumans and Turks would be in a lot of trouble. Of course they would have a slower rate of fire than bows.

    Bedouin Warriors - attack 7 defense 9 (shield 4, skill 5), weapon spear men 54 cost 400 upkeep 110 Tier 3
    Bedouins were arab nomads who lived almost entirely off their Camels. Camels were used for food, clothing, mounts, milk and even camel urine was used to wash hair, getting rid of lice! Armenians made use of groups of Bedouins in many of their armies after the Turks arrived, becuase the Seljuks were driving the Bedouins off their land just as they were driving off the Armenians. the Bedouins are camel mounted warriors, who should cause fear in horses but be vulnerable to missiles. Fairly fragile, but with a decent charge value due to the spear.

    Naxarar - attack 10 defense 16 (shield 6, armour 4, skill 6), weapon spear men varies cost none (generals bodygaurd unit) upkeep varies Tier none
    The Naxarar were the significant land owners of Armenia, like the feudal lords of Europe. They were administrators in peace time, and warriors in war time, fighting as a well equipped heavy cavalry unit. You could have an early and high version, like in your XL mod, to represent the adoption of European arms and armour.

    Finally, this unit would be a mercenary unit, hireable in Cilicia through to the Armenian homelands and Georgia.
    Azat Cavalry - attack 10 defense 12 (armour 3, shield 4, skill 5) weapon spear men 54 cost 675 upkeep 300 Tier none (mercenary)
    The Azats were the cavalry of Armenia. After the Turks over ran he Armenian homeland, the Azats found themselves landless, and so many became mercenaries, offering themselves to not just the highest bidder, but every bidder, be it Seljuk, Byzantine, Georgian or Armenian. They served in with many different factions, sometimes even fighting against each other, and due to their skills as fast cavalrymen were in constant demand. This unit is the Armenian heavy cavalry of MTW. I made their upkeep higher than what their stats should suggest to represent the fact they are mercenaries, and ment to complement an army, not form the bulk of it. Should be useful to the Turks, who did not have good cavalry lancers.

    Well thats the Armenians, when making the list i have tried to think about balance as well as historical accuracy, but obviously come the final version things might need to be changed.

    EDIT - 11 new units
    Last edited by Armchair Athlete; 10-28-2004 at 02:48.

  18. #48
    Member Member VikingHorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @Lord_Winter and Armchair Athlete
    Good stuff, lots of good units


    MTW XL version 3.0 out now! Get it here:
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  19. #49
    Member Member Lord_Winter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Athlete
    EDIT - nice list Lord Winter, with the Catalan Grand Comany (pretty good weren't they?!) they mostly consisted of Almughavars (a rarely seen unit from MTW). When I get around to doing the Aragonese I'll put some stuff on them.
    The catalans where mostly light infantry (almughavars...in M:TW) and of a smaller part Heavy Cavalry... and they should be quiet good i think since the emperor payed several times the normal mercenary tax to per soldier and season...and to my knowledge they never suffered a major defeat...in the east at least...

    @Armchair Athlete
    Very nice armenian list...maybe a few of those units should be available to the byzantines in their eastern provinces...dunno...but Armenian Bordermen and Intantry seemed to have formed the bulk of the fot folk until right before the early campaign begins...

    @Viking...
    What is the roof for unit count...heard two hundred but it would be nice to know exactly...and will you use generic units which can be used for every fraction or specific units which can only be used (looking correctly) for one fraction...if the first option I think it would probably be good to make a list of fractions and units eliminating down until we reach the limit because with about 15-20 units and 32 fractions it wont reach even near the limits...

  20. #50
    Member Member McFlugle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    An idea for the Senate problem: Have the Pope become the senate and have the 3 factions controlled, be the 3 independent crusader states; Jerusalem, Tripoli and Edessa. (antioch was a Byzantine protectorate at that time) That way the crusader states have some ability to fight enemies, yet since you are making them 3 different factions they are more realistic and not so dominating as a fully united crusader state was in other mods.


    is it any good?

  21. #51
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @Lord Winter - yeah the Byzantines used a lot of Armenian units, but by that time period (1100 AD) most of them had left the Byzantine army. Some eve betrayed the Byzantines, helping the Turks to attack the Byzzies! There were lots of Armenian/Byzantine wars. But they would be able to hire Azat cavalry (Armenian Heavy Cavalry) as mercenaries. Also the game supports a maximum of 300 units. Said in this thread by Jerome
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37359

    EDIT - maybe after we post potential army lists, we could say how many new units there are, so at the end we can just tally them up and see if we have too many.
    Last edited by Armchair Athlete; 10-28-2004 at 11:41.

  22. #52
    Altogether quite not there! Member GodsPetMonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Athlete
    Also the game supports a maximum of 300 units.
    Some quick numbers, theres 264 units in RTW (no mods) and about 180 in MTW with VI.
    Some of those RTW units are repeats though, just using different models (like the peasants).

    Now, with (say) 30 factions, that means each faction can have up to 10 units, if every unit in the game was unique to one faction (a bit small). But if every unit that was in MTW:VI was put into RTW, we would still have 120 or so to spare. Whilst you will need more generic units, I think for now is safe to presume you dont have to go overboard with them.
    As an example, if you had 30 factions, and 5 culture groups with 6 factions each, if you made a generic peasant unit for one culture group, you would have effectively freed up 5 slots for unique units (if all factions in that group would have used a unique peasant unit instead). I should guess that these 'savings' would add up pretty quickly.
    Caligula and Hadrian - Unit and Building editors for Rome: Total War.
    Now editing -
    export_descr_unit.txt, export_descr_unit_enums.txt, export_units.txt, descr_model_battle.txt
    export_descr_buildings.txt, export_descr_buildings_enums.txt, export_buildings.txt

  23. #53
    Cathedral of Despair Member jimmyM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Is there a way to mod cities or buildings? - e.g, so you can have Constantinople on the Golden Horn, the Haghia Sofia etc. (i haven't noticed any cities in RTW right on the coast...)sorry, not reallly sure what all this (especially the buildings) entails, it wouldnt just be re-skinning...

  24. #54
    Member Member VikingHorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Winter
    @Viking...
    What is the roof for unit count...heard two hundred but it would be nice to know exactly...and will you use generic units which can be used for every fraction or specific units which can only be used (looking correctly) for one fraction...if the first option I think it would probably be good to make a list of fractions and units eliminating down until we reach the limit because with about 15-20 units and 32 fractions it wont reach even near the limits...
    There will be a lot of standard units like in MTW (feudal knights, FMAA ect.), so I think there should be good space for most factions to have uniqe units.

    @McFlugle
    A very good idea, never thought of that one. I was thinking of the Italian city states as an idea, but this could be good too.

    @jimmyM
    Im not a 100% shure about building limits, but we are planing to add a lot of new building. There are at 4-5 modders on this project now, so it's looking good.

    MTW XL version 3.0 out now! Get it here:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31201

  25. #55
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    whoa, 4-5, where are the other modders?

  26. #56
    Member Member Dirty peasant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    @Armchair Athlete
    Visit http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showforum=45 topic MTW

  27. #57
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    ahh OK, I saw the thread posted there when Viking Horde first started it but it seemed to disappear off the front page so I thought it died...obviously not!

  28. #58
    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    Thanks armchair , i have for now done a list of Foot Units (Archers, Javelineers, Spearmen and Oddball units) this is my first draft, took me a couple of days to write down in note pad:

    Spearmen:

    Mutatawi'a - Attack 7 Defence 2

    Volunteers, they provided the money for their own arms and armour, or were sponsored by other wealthy but less than able to fight people. Undisiciplined, disorganised and impetuos. Armed with short spears (1 - 1.5 meter), sword and whatever armour/shield they could afford.

    Jund - Attack 8 Defence 10

    Basic soldiers, the rank and file of any Islamic army, carrying a spear, circular shield made of metal, turban helmet and a light mail of chain, they are armed with swords but are not effective in prolonged melees.

    Nubian Spearmen - Attack 10 Defence 16 (Unique to Egypt)

    Spearmen recruited from sudan, more disciplined than Jund and more organised, armed with a long spear, oval iron shields, chainmail under a heavy robe, and turban helmets.

    Askari - Attack 12 Defence 18 (Abassids only)

    Heavy Infantry, these are drilled and trained daily, very disciplined and organised, they carry a long spear, oval shield, wear lamellar armoured (chainmail enforced with rectangular plates) and conical helmets. They are also armed with swords although not effective but better than the Jund.

    Muwahid Foot Soldiers - Attack 14 Defence 12 (Almohad/Almoravid only)

    Spearment Recruited from northern parts of Algeria or Tunisia, over confident and impetous. They carry long spears, swords and large tower shields.

    Andalucian Armoured Infantry - Attack 12 Defence 20 (Region Specific to Southern Spain)

    Due to Spains cooler climate compared to the hotter climate in north africa, the muslim soldiers under the corduba caliphate copied their spanish counter parts in arms and armour.

    Archers:

    Archers - Missile Attack 8 Melee Attack 5 Defence 5 (Unit Specific for Abbasids and Egyptians)

    Ranged Infantry, wearing a heavy robe, armed with recurve bows and a long sword. Can skirmish but only in self defence or while flanking.

    Nubian Archers - Missile Attack 12 Melee Attack 4 Defence 3 (Unique to Egypt)

    Archers also recruited from Sudan, very accurate and live up to their reputation in deadly accuracy. Armed with bows and swords, not much armour besides cloth though, cannot skirmish aswell as their other counterparts.

    Berber Archers - Missile Attack 9 Melee attack 5 Defence 4 (Specific for Almohads/Almoravids)

    Archers recruited by the almohads and almoravids, armed with bows and a sword, can skirmish aswell.

    Andalucian Crossbowmen - Missile Attack 12 Melee Attack 4 Defence 6 (Almohad/Almoravid only)

    Christian mercenaries recruited from areas under muslim control in spain, they use Crossbows and are armoured by light chainmail. Armed with swords, but for self defence.

    Javelins:

    Berber Javelinmen - Missile Attack 16 Melee attack 7 defence 2 (Almohads/Almoravid specific)

    Used by the almohads/almoravids to skirmish and harass, armed with heavy javelins,swords, long wooden shields and heavy robes, only protection for their heads is the turbans, they can skirmish very well and can act as light infantry.

    Nubian Javelinmen - Missile Attack 18 Melee Attack 4 Defence 2 (Egypt Specific)

    Excellent skirmishers but cannot melee effectively, these are recruited from sudan and they bring their own equipment with them, only armed with heavy javelins (last one is kept for self defence) and light cloth.

    Sword Units:

    Arab Warband - Missile Attack 14 Melee Attack 12 Defence 7 (Abassid only)

    Undisiciplined, unorganised but very speedy, armed with swords, light javelins, wooden circular shields and light chainmail, also turban helmets.

    Blackguard - Missile Attack 15 Melee Attack 12 Defence 10 (Almohad/Almoravid only)

    The Elite of the Almoravid (Blackguard) and Almohad (AuM ) i combined both into 1 becuase they acted almost the same under both the command of El Mansur and Yusuf Ibn Tashufin but had different names. Armed with heavy javelins and towershields, chainmail, turban helmets and swords.

    EDIT - Defence was supposed to be 15, not 5, but thats pretty overpowered considered they also throw javelins.

    Futuwwas - Missile Attack 10 Melee attack 14 Defence 9 (Egypt Only)

    A military system developed in egypt, called the futuwwas, considered an elite form of infantry and could be used as cavalry when needed, armed with recurve bows, long sabers, round shields made of metal, turban helmets and chainmail armour. Armed with light lances when on horses.

    Axemen (Taken from MTW ) :

    Ghazi Fanatics (Foot version) - Attack 16 Defence 3

    Employed to pillage the country side and paid by whatever loot they lay their hands on, they prefer axes and wooden shields and use speed for defence.

    Abyssinian Guard - Attack 18 Defence 8 (Egypt only)

    Recruited from Abyssinia (Al Habasha) , they carry large axes and rely on speed for protection. Organised and Disciplined.

    Note: units that are not specific are for all factions, these are common soldiers (ie vanilla) their names are based off of arabic names so Ghazi (Raider) or Jund (Militia).

    Armchair thanks again for letting me borrow your style, your unit lists are awesome, keep up the good work.

    Next on my list will be cavalry for the 4 factions.

    EDIT:argh my post hurt my eyes, need to seperate the units so i bolded the categories for an easier time to read.
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 10-29-2004 at 17:54.

  29. #59
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    nice list, I'm hoping to do the Georgians next them the Volga Bulgarians. The Volga Bulgarians were a muslim faction too, a couple of those units I could use for them, mind if I do? specifically Jund, Archers.

  30. #60
    Member Member Armchair Athlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval - Total War mod

    OK here are the Georgians. They were initially pushed back by the Seljuks, until their greatest King came to power right at the start of this campaign (David the Builder) and Georgia became a great power, defeating the Seljuks in numerous battles and extending their empire into Armenia and beyond Trebizond, before the Mongols came and destroyed them. Under the rule of David the Builder, and alliance was formed with the Cumans, and 40,000 Cuman Families were resettled in Gerogia. Each family had to provide one fully equipped warrior, and so an army of 40,000 men was created. This was done to offset the powers of the fickle Georgian nobles, who often tried to usurp the authority of the King and controlled the bulk of the Georgian army. The Georgian army would also consist of Armenian units, who found refuge in Georgia after fleeing the Seljuks. The Kings royal gaurd were elite and very effective, but few in number. I have tried to reflect this 'noble versus King' in the army list, where the noble's uits would make up the bulk of the army, with a few kings royal gaurd, plus Cuman and Armenian units. This link shows georgian architect
    http://www.umt.edu/fll/persian/georgia.htm
    Also the DBAOL website has stuff too.

    Eastern Urban Militia - done this unit before

    Eastern Archers - done this unit before

    Eastern Spearmen - done this unit before

    Eastern Skirmishers - done this unit before

    Horse Archers - done this unit before

    Cuman Warriors - done this unit before

    Cuman Cavalry - done this unit before

    Caucasian Mountaineers - done this unit before

    Armenian Borderers - done this unit before - NOTE I said earlier that these guys would be limited to the Armenian home provinces of Cilicia, and the original Armenian homeland, occupied by the Seljuks. This has not changed, so to gain access to this unit the Georgians will need to reconquer Armenia from the Seljuks. This would make it a bit more interesting, and be historically accurate.

    Georgian Light Cavalry - attack 8 defense 10 (armour 2, shield 4, skill 4) weapon Lance men 54 cost 450 upkeep 190 Tier 3
    Georgian Light cavalry was Lance armed cavalry, equipped and hired by the various Georgian nobles to fight for them. They have a devestating charge, but should not be lft in Melee for too long, as their low armour will mean they will be defeated. They also are primarily loyal to their nobles, and that means they may lack moral fibre in a crisis and flee. One thing about RTW that bugged me a bit was the amount of units that became redundant after a short period of time. So what I thought would be good here was to have Georgian Light cavalry as excellent chargers, but vulnerable in prolonged melee, and have Georgian Heavy Cavalry as very good in prolonged melee, but a poor charge. This would mean that both are useful in the game.

    Georgian Heavy Cavalry - attack 14 defense 20 (armour 9, shield 6, skill 5) weapon mace (reduces armour) men 54 cost 850 upkeep 320 Tier 4
    The Georgian army consisted of mainly cavalry, and Georgian Heavy cavalry add their potent force to this mix. Although having a poor initialy charge value, their strength isthe ensuring melee, where their armour protects from attacks and their maces can destroy enemy formations. Once again, this unit is equipped by the Georgian nobles, and while being better equipped than Georgian Light cavalry and thus willing to stay in a fight more, still do not have the iron discipline that the Kings royal gaurds have. To represent the fact that these guys are equipped by nobles, I made their upkeep costs fairly low (for cavalry), while the upkeep costs for the Kings Royal Infantry are much higher, as it is paid straight out of the Kings treasury.

    Georgian Royal Infantry - attack 16 defense 21 (shield 6, armour 8, skill 7) weapon long pike men 80 cost 1200 upkeep 475 Tier 5
    Georgian Royal Infantry are the most elite soldiers available to a Georgian king - excellent morale and able to defeat most enemies in a head on confrontation. They are totally loyal to the King, as they are equipped and paid by only the King. This however is a significant drain on the treasury, and so no more than a few regiments can be operating at one time. They should only be hireable in the Georgian starting provinces. These would be like the Spartan hoplites of RTW, and maybe should be able to form a phalanx due to their excellent discipline and training. They are very expensive though, and take a long time to get.

    Georgian Royal Cavalry - attack 13 defense 15 (shield 4, skill 6, armour 5, hitpoints - 2), weapon Lance men varies cost none (generals bodygaurd) upkeep varies Tier none
    Georgian Royal cavalry are the Kings personal gaurd, and excellent fighters. They have a lance for a devestating charge, and can swing the tide of the battle. They are few in number though, and it may not be wise to risk the generals life all the time!

    Eastern Crossbows - already done this unit before

    Well thats the Georgians. Good cavalry, with Cuman auxiliaries and possible Armenian units. They have a mix of other faction units, so there are only 4 new units in this list.
    Last edited by Armchair Athlete; 10-29-2004 at 07:14.

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