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Thread: Naval battle changes

  1. #1
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Naval battle changes

    Hello everyone!

    This thread is dedicated to the the Naval battle changes sub-group.

    For those working on this group, start posting your info here, instead of the general EB MOD thread.
    Last edited by Aymar de Bois Mauri; 10-27-2004 at 17:00.

  2. #2
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    I was told to post naval info here. What exactly are you looking for and how would this relate to game changes as this would help to narrow down research. What CAN be done makes a big difference to what I will look for.

    1. Ship types?

    2.Naval tactics?

    3.Speed/bases/build time/type of lumber used(vulnerability to damage and service life)/regions where resources permit quick build(imported materials always possible but would increase time and cost)
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  3. #3
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    I was told to post naval info here. What exactly are you looking for and how would this relate to game changes as this would help to narrow down research. What CAN be done makes a big difference to what I will look for.

    1. Ship types?

    2.Naval tactics?

    3.Speed/bases/build time/type of lumber used(vulnerability to damage and service life)/regions where resources permit quick build(imported materials always possible but would increase time and cost)
    Sorry for not replying sooner. I was hoping that khelvan could reply better than me, because he is one of the persons working on this.

    I think the most important areas should be:

    -Relate the RTW ship types to historical ones and see if they have been implemented in a realistic way (not obvious I know), regarding widespread use or not, cost relating to one another, specific use, etc... This should give us an idea of the ship types and their proportion in naval armadas at the time. We'll see if we can implement something similar in the MOD.

    -Not specifically naval tactics. See if the automatic naval combat system results are in any way concurrent with battle results in that era of History. Try to find a solution (idea, not technical implementation) to solve the discrepancy.

  4. #4
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
    Sorry for not replying sooner. I was hoping that khelvan could reply better than me, because he is one of the persons working on this.

    I think the most important areas should be:

    -Relate the RTW ship types to historical ones and see if they have been implemented in a realistic way (not obvious I know), regarding widespread use or not, cost relating to one another, specific use, etc... This should give us an idea of the ship types and their proportion in naval armadas at the time. We'll see if we can implement something similar in the MOD.

    -Not specifically naval tactics. See if the automatic naval combat system results are in any way concurrent with battle results in that era of History. Try to find a solution (idea, not technical implementation) to solve the discrepancy.
    They are not historical but the game stats have to reflect reality, or try to get close. I have a Unit Guide with some of the ship stats put out by SoulFlame V1.1. Are there anymore stats I'm not seeing on that guide which might help, or can you tell me where to look in the files?

    1. Can speed be changed from ship type to type or not?
    2. Can the zone of influence be changed from type to type?
    3. What kind of bonus if any can a ship get through experience/admirals/retinue/etc?
    4. Can hidden, or not so hidden resources be attached to provinces?
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  5. #5
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    Note: I had some ideas I wanted to discuss regarding the implementation of navies in EB, but I was waiting for the passworded forum. Hopefully you will soon have access there, Sharrukin, and we can discuss them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    They are not historical but the game stats have to reflect reality, or try to get close. I have a Unit Guide with some of the ship stats put out by SoulFlame V1.1. Are there anymore stats I'm not seeing on that guide which might help, or can you tell me where to look in the files?

    1. Can speed be changed from ship type to type or not?
    2. Can the zone of influence be changed from type to type?
    3. What kind of bonus if any can a ship get through experience/admirals/retinue/etc?
    4. Can hidden, or not so hidden resources be attached to provinces?
    1) I am not sure of this - it is not defined at the unit level, though there may be a way to change this at the strategic map level. I know you can change the speed of ships as a whole. Whether or not you can do so based on ship type, I am not sure. I haven't looked into it yet.

    2) I do not believe so. At least, I too have asked that question more than once and have never received an answer. I hope it will be the case, but I am not counting on it.

    3) Ship units receive experience just as ground units do. As far as admirals, I have seen them receive command stars through traits and retinues; I have not tried adding anything other than command stars to an admiral yet.

    4) Yes.
    Cogita tute


  6. #6
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    Quote Originally Posted by khelvan
    Note: I had some ideas I wanted to discuss regarding the implementation of navies in EB, but I was waiting for the passworded forum. Hopefully you will soon have access there, Sharrukin, and we can discuss them.



    1) I am not sure of this - it is not defined at the unit level, though there may be a way to change this at the strategic map level. I know you can change the speed of ships as a whole. Whether or not you can do so based on ship type, I am not sure. I haven't looked into it yet.

    2) I do not believe so. At least, I too have asked that question more than once and have never received an answer. I hope it will be the case, but I am not counting on it.

    3) Ship units receive experience just as ground units do. As far as admirals, I have seen them receive command stars through traits and retinues; I have not tried adding anything other than command stars to an admiral yet.

    4) Yes.

    I found this over at the Total War Centre. It looks like what I was talking about, but someone with great intellect will need to tell me if it is or not.

    I'll go ahead and contribute my movement rate set. What this does is give spies, assassins, and diplomats all varying ranges of movement (diplomats have the most, then spies, then asassins), and then adds a whopping amount of movement to all boats. It's a completely transparent trait (because it's hidden), so it doesn't even show up as listed, and occurs 100% of the time upon agent creation (admirals are agents). If you don't like the amount of movement increase, it's easily changable in 10% increments, where each point is +10%.

    to export_descr_character_traits.txt:

    CODE
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait DiplomaticImmunity
    Characters diplomat
    Hidden

    Level DiplomaticImmunity
    Description DiplomaticImmunity_desc
    EffectsDescription DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc
    Threshold 1

    Effect MovementPoints 9



    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait Sneaky
    Characters spy
    Hidden

    Level Sneaky
    Description Sneaky_desc
    EffectsDescription Sneaky_effects_desc
    Threshold 1

    Effect MovementPoints 7



    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait NeverSeen
    Characters assassin
    Hidden

    Level DiplomaticImmunity
    Description Never_Seen_desc
    EffectsDescription Never_Seen_effects_desc
    Threshold 1

    Effect MovementPoints 5



    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait OceanGoing
    Characters admiral
    Hidden

    Level OceanGoing
    Description OceanGoing_desc
    EffectsDescription OceanGoing_effects_desc
    Threshold 1

    Effect MovementPoints 16


    The triggers (I simply doubled them up for the agents, so overwrite the existing triggers here):

    CODE
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger spyinit1
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = spy

    Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 100
    Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
    Affects GoodConspirator 1 Chance 20

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger spyinit2
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = spy
    and Trait NaturalSpySkill = 1

    Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 33

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger spyinit3
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = spy
    and Trait NaturalSpySkill = 2

    Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 20

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger diplomatinit1
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = diplomat

    Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 100
    Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger diplomatinit2
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = diplomat
    and Trait NaturalDiplomatSkill = 1

    Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 33

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger diplomatinit3
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = diplomat
    and Trait NaturalDiplomatSkill = 2

    Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 33

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger assassininit1
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = assassin

    Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 100
    Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger assassininit2
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = assassin
    and Trait NaturalAssassinSkill = 1

    Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 33

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger assassininit3
    WhenToTest AgentCreated

    Condition AgentType = assassin
    and Trait NaturalAssassinSkill = 2

    Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100
    Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 33



    to export_descr_VnVs_enums.txt:

    CODE
    OceanGoing
    OceanGoing_desc
    OceanGoing_effects_desc
    Sneaky
    Sneaky_desc
    Sneaky_effects_desc
    NeverSeen
    NeverSeen_desc
    NeverSeen_effects_desc
    DiplomaticImmunity
    DiplomaticImmunity_desc
    DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc


    and to /text/export_vnvs.txt

    CODE

    {OceanGoing} Ocean Going

    {OceanGoing_desc}
    The seas allow the freedom to reach faraway places in a fortnight which would take several months on foot.

    {OceanGoing_effects_desc}
    +160% to movement on the sea

    ¬--------------------

    {Sneaky} Sneaky

    {Sneaky_desc}
    This man knows how to travel lightly and silently.

    {Sneaky_effects_desc}
    +70% to movement

    ¬--------------------

    {DiplomaticImmunity} Diplomatic Immunity

    {DiplomaticImmunity_desc}
    Guards and borders mean nothing to this man.

    {DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc}
    +90% to movement

    ¬--------------------

    {NeverSeen} Never Seen

    {NeverSeen_desc}
    Those who travel alone travel quickest.

    {NeverSeen_effects_desc}
    +50% to movement


    The text files are there in case you wanted to make them standard (non-hidden) traits. I chose 160% for admirals because at my action point level (105), it just barely allows a ship to go from Carthage to Corduba in 2 turns. I thought that was a pretty good yardstick for ship travel. Anyway, I think this perhaps the best way to give individual unit types their own movement range--I know this has been a sticking point about the game for me as well as a lot of other people, so I hope this works out for everyone.

    The only catch here is that you need to add these traits to existing admirals, spies, and diplomats in your descr_strat.txt folder, because the trigger is unit creation. I'm not going to bother posting my descr_strat file here because we all probably have different ones by now.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  7. #7
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    It looks great, the problem is I thought you wanted to make individual units differ in movement. That is, fast ships go faster than slow ships. I see how you would do what you describe in the code above, but I don't see how it can be applied to individual unit types. You either make an admiral move his fleet faster or you don't, unless you know if a V&V can be triggered based on unit definition. I'll have to look into this when I get a chance.
    Cogita tute


  8. #8
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    This is from export_desc_unit.txt. Some changes for the naval ships. The build time is something we might want to wait to do. A lot will depend on what can be done with the game engine.
    Bireme=2 turns
    Trireme=3 turns
    Quadrireme=4 turns
    Quinquireme=4 turns
    Polyreme=5 turns or more
    Veneti Boats=1 turn
    Nydam Boat=2 turns


    type naval biremes
    dictionary naval_bireme ; Bireme
    category ship
    class light
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 20, 0, 1
    ship light warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 6, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 450, 80, 50, 70, 450
    ownership roman, greek,ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


    type naval triremes
    dictionary naval_trireme ; Trireme
    category ship
    class heavy
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 30, 0, 1
    ship light warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 8, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 570, 120, 80, 110, 720
    ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


    type naval quinquiremes
    dictionary naval_quinquireme ; Quinquireme =Quadrireme
    category ship
    class heavy
    voice_type Medium_1 Carthage should get bonus for construction
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 50, 0, 1
    ship heavy warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 10, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 5, 4, 0, flesh =4, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 900, 210, 130, 200, 1290
    ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


    type naval corvus quinquireme
    dictionary naval_corvus ; Corvus Quinquireme =Quinquireme
    category ship
    class heavy
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 50, 0, 1
    ship heavy warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 14, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 4, 4, 0, flesh =5, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 1000, 210, 150, 220, 1440
    ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


    type naval deceres
    dictionary naval_decere ; Decere =Polyreme
    category ship
    class heavy
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 60, 0, 1
    ship flagship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 16, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 8, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 3, 1200, 250, 210, 310, 2010
    ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


    type naval boats
    dictionary naval_boats ; Boats=Veneti Boats
    category ship
    class light
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 15, 0, 1=25, 0, 1
    ship light warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 6, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 1, 4, 0, flesh =2, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 360, 60, 40, 60, 360
    ownership barbarian


    type naval large boats
    dictionary naval_large_boats ; Large Boats=Nydam Ship
    category ship
    class heavy
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 30, 0, 1=40, 0, 1
    ship heavy warship
    attributes sea_faring
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 8, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 570, 120, 80, 110, 720
    ownership barbarian


    type naval pirate ships Renamed Hemiolia-Description should mention that in state
    dictionary naval_pirates ; Pirate Ships=Hemiolia /Triemiolia
    category ship
    class light
    voice_type Medium_1 One turn construction time
    soldier roman_light_infantry, 25, 0, 1=20, 0, 1
    ship light warship
    attributes sea_faring Rhodes should get a cost reduction or Valour bonus?
    formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 510, 100, 60, 90, 570
    ownership slave, roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  9. #9
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    At this point I am busy enough compiling everyone's work, so I will simply add everything you change straight into the next build without looking it over, assuming that is all right with you? Just send me the exact edits and I'll put them in.

    Unfortunately other projects have kept me too busy lately to be working on much other than what I've posted in the tasklist above. Shall I add naval changes to the list for you? If you email me the exact changes you want (to all relevant files) I'll make sure it is included in the next internal release.

    By the way, you will notice I upped the attack factor and lowered the defense of all naval units. Would you please go over this, relate it to what you are seeing for naval battles in the game currently, and perhaps change them further in some way? I think people are still seeing naval battles that are mostly pointless.

    Thanks!
    Cogita tute


  10. #10
    Member Member DharkEntity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    Hi, just joined and now browsing the forums. Not sure if this is the place to post:

    I often find my fleets "blockaded" by neutral vessels. Is it possible to change the zone-of-control of vessels, so they only affect hostiles?
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  11. #11
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval battle changes

    I believe that's hard-coded, but not certain. Anyone know otherwise?
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


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