campaign map development (P&M RTW)

[Eastside Character]

campaign map development (P&M RTW)

What is this thread all about:

1. Map arrangement (regions, geographic features, proper names etc.).
2. Wealth, resources, tradable goods etc. of provinces.

This post will be updated.
Any sensible suggestions, comments, corrections etc. are welcome.

Regards
EC

-EDIT-

Screenshots of all areas of map:
- Germany


- Denmark


- Austria


- Finland


- Norway (united with Denmark) and Sweden


- Poland and Lithuania


- Russia


- The Wild Fields (Cossack or Tatar states)


- Hungary


- Ottoman Empire


- Asia


- Italy


- Africa


- Spain


- Scotland


- England


- France


- Netherlands


List of provinces: (to be updated)

FYI:
->the following division of regions into groups is for convenience
 purpose only and not to argue whether or not a region X is more
 western or norhtern european etc.
->the pattern is: province name - city name
->all the names are my propositions and are all open for discussion
->K. - Kingdom
->G.D. - Grand Duchy
->D. - Duchy
->A. - Archbishopric
->B. - Bishopric
->C. - County
->El. - Electorate
->A.D. - Archduchy
->M. - March
->E. - Eyalet

Western Europe
- - - - -
Papal States - Rome
Campania - Naples
Calabria - Reggio
Puglie - Bari
D. of Modena - Modena
D. of Tuscany - Florence
Liguria - Genoa
Lombardy - Milan
Venezzo - Venice
D. of Savoy - Turin
Corsica - Ajaccio
K. of Sardinia - Cagliari
K. of Sicily - Palermo
- - - - - 13
Provance - Marseilles
Languedoc -Toulouse
Dauphine - Grenoble
Overny - Clermont Ferrand
Limousin - Limoges
Guyenne - Bordeaux
Gascony - Auch
Poitou - Poitiers
Lyonnais - Lyon
Burgundy - Dijon
Orleanais - Orlean
Anjou - Angers
Brittany - Nantes
Normandy - Rouen
Champagne - Reims
Picardy - Amiens
Ile de France - Paris
- - - - - 30
Flanders - Ghent
Brabant - Brussels
G.D. of Luxembourg - Luxembourg
Franche Comte - Besancon
Switzerland - Bern
Alsace - Strasbourg
Lorraine - Nancy
B. of Liege - Liege
A. of Treves - Treves
A. of Cologne - Cologne
Holland - Amsterdam
Het Sticht - Utrecht
Generaliteitslanden - Breda
Stad en Ommelanden - Groningen
B. of Bremen - Bremen
B. of Munster - Munster
- - - - - 46
Portugal - Lisbon
Algavre - Algavre
Aragon - Barcelona
Andalucia - Seville
Valencia - Valencia
Granada - Granada
Galicia - Santiago de Compostela
Leon - Leon
Navarre - Pamplona
Castille - Valladolid
New Castille - Madrid
Mallorca - Palma
(...)
- - - - - 58
Eastern Europe
- - - - -
Upper Palatinate - Nuremberg
Lower Palatinate - Worms
C. of Hesse - Cassel
B. of Wurzburg - Wurzburg
D. of Brunswick - Brunswick
D. of Hamburg - Hamburg
G.D. of Mecklenburg - Lubeck
El. of Brandenburg - Berlin
D. of Pomerania - Stettin
D. of Baden and Wurtemberg - Stuttgart
El. of Saxony - Dresden
Silesia - Breslau
- - - - - 70
C. of Tyrolia - Trident
El. of Bavaria - Munich
A. of Salzbourg - Satzbourg
K. of Bohemia - Prague
A.D. of Austria - Vienna
D. of Styria - Graz
D. of Carinthia and Carniola - Klagenfurt
K. of Croatia - Zagreb
Royal Hungary - Presburg
Dalmatia - Zara
- - - - - 80
Budina - Buda
Tokai - Tokai
Transilvania - Nagyszeben
Wallachia - Buchuresti
Bulgaria - Sredec
Nish and Vidin - Nish
Serbia - Belgrade
Bosnia - Sarayevo
Montenegro - Cenita
Macedonia - Salonika
E. of Istanbul - Istanbul
E. of Roumelia - Edirne
E. of Janina - Janina
Dobruja - Silistra
Morea - Athens
Rhodes - Rhodes
Crete - Crete
- - - - - 97
Royal Prussia - Danzig
Ducal Prussia - Konnigsberg
D. of Courland - Mittau
Greater Poland - Poznan
Lesser Poland - Krakow
Mazovia - Warszawa
Lithuania - Vilnius
Belarus - Minsk
Polotsk - Polotsk
Ruthenia - Lviv
Volhynia - Lutsk
Podolia - Kamieniec Podolski
Kiev - Kiev
- - - - - 110
Zaporozhye - Sich
Yedisan - Ochakov
Moldavia - Jassy
Bessarabia - Akerman
Crimea - Bakhcheserai
Chernigov - Chernigov
Kuban - Azov
E. of Keffe - Keffe
Belgorod - Belgorod
Don - Serai/Tzaritzin
Smolensk - Smolensk
Tula - Tula
Ryazan - Ryazan
Kazan - Kazan
Muscovy - Moscow
Tver - Tver
Pskov - Pskov
Nizny Novgorod - Nizny Novgorod
Great Novgorod - Novgorod (...)
- - - - - 129
Northern Europe
Siberia - Vologda
Livonia - Riga
Estonia - Revel
Ingria - Nyen
Kexholm - Kexholm
Finland - Abo
Osterbotten - Uleaborg
Vasterbotten - Lulea
Uppland - Stockholm
Gotaland - Goteborg
Smaland - Kalmar
Gotland - Visby
Jamtland and Harjedalen - Blunflo
Skane - Malmo
Ostlandet - Oslo
Bergenshus - Bergen
Trondelag - Trondheim
Denmark - Kopenhagen
D. of Schlezwig and Holstein - Kiln
- - - - - 148
Essex - London
Wales - Cardiff
Wessex - Winchester
Kent - Canterbury
Oxfordshire - Oxford
Nottinghamshire - Nottingham
Northumbria - York
Lancashire - Preston
Galloway - Glasgow
Louthiane - Edynburgh
Ulster - Belfast
Leinster - Dublin
Munster - Cork (...)
- - - - - 161
Asia
Khazakhstan - Orsk
Astrakhan - Astrakhan
Circassia - ?
Abkhazia - Sukhum Kale
Kartli and Imereti - Tibilisi
Kakheti - ?
Erevan - Erevan
Daghestan - Derbent
Shirvan - Bakhu
Azerbaijan - Tabriz
Luristan - Hamadan
Kirkuk - Kirkuk
- - - - - 173
Cypres - Nicosia
E. of Van - Van
E. of Anatolia - Angora
E. of Konya - Konya
E. of Trebizond - Trebizond
E. of Adana - Adana
E. of Aleppo - Aleppo
E. of Syria - Damascus
E. of Mosul - Mosul
E. of Baghdad - Baghdad
Palestine - Jerusalem
Arabia - Madina (...)
- - - - - 185
Africa
Tanger - Tanger
Oran - Oran
Morocco - Fez
Algeria - Alger
Tunisia - Tunis
Tripolitania - Tripolis
Barca - Benghazi
Egypt - Cairo
Sahara - ? (...)
- - - - - 194

[Eastside Character]

I've started updating the list of provinces in the first post (as you can see). As far as the map is comming along, I'm now putting together the Russian part of it. It's not yet ready to be shown, as I'm not yet certain of what regions should there be. Now I have: Muscovy, Smolensk, Chernigov, Kursk, Don, Kazan, Ryazan, Tula, Orel, Tver, Vologda, Pskov, Novgorod. I'd appreciate any feedback.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Does this mean that the whole of Naples is going to be one single province?

[Eastside Character]

That's the idea. Dividing it makes little sense as far as the province ownership is concerned. Historically it belonged to Spain (which owns bunch of regions all over the western Mediterranean anyway). The whole Italy is not very much divided because of the faction arrangement we have. There aren't enough factions to divide the Italy more IMHO. The Papacy, Spain and Venice (and some rebel states here and there) are the only factions which will own regions in Italy. If Kingdom of Naples should be divided, then for what reasons?

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Just to make it harder to conquer. Its half Italy in territory, so IMO it should be split in, at least 2.

[Eastside Character]

So what would you suggest to be added? Spoleto?

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Or maybe Tarento....

Maybe we could contact Prometheus and ask him which he considers more important...Italian history isn't my forte...

[Eastside Character]

Or maybe Tarento....

Maybe we could contact Prometheus and ask him which he considers more important...Italian history isn't my forte...

Then contact him if you can, as I simply don't know him.

[SwordsMaster]

Here it is:

See this:

- Campania: capital Naples;
- Calabria: capital Reggio;
- Puglie: capital Bari

[Eastside Character]

Great Britain
I need some ideas of how to arrange Great Britain. I think Scotland should get two regions - what names of regions (Highlands and Lowlands?) and what names of their capitals.

But then about England I only realise there should be Wales with Cardiff as its capital and what then? Cities like London, York will certainly have to be there, but what should be their provinces etc. I need info on that.

Great Map
The whole map is looks pretty much done in mos places, I'm closing the region limit. Soon there will be a major update with screens. Hopefully, after we all discuss what to change after that, we'll have a ready to go campaign map!

From what I now can tell about how is campaign running, I'd says its good. I played once like 10 years and everything was fine. I'm tweaking the map all the time and a lot recently, changing geography and started adding forests.

Great Forest
And here's another thing I have to ask you: can you for your respective countries find some kind of info on where should some major forest areas be. Well if you can tell without searching then its ok with me, but I would need some pictures like maps with forest areas.

And one more thing about forests: I think we don't need dense forest in mod. What do you think? Instead we could change it into something else (like towns like Myrddraal /sp?/). Reasons for doing so are: we have pretty crowded map and adding some more obstacles would turn Europe into a labyrinth. Still, makind dense forest in places like Syberia etc. makes no sense either, as it's just like not using dense forest at all.

Great Wilderness
I have an idea to create one region that would represent territories with no permanent settlements and major political force, or because we have no factions to assign there, anyway that region would consist of: most of Sahara, most of Arabia, anywhere else you suggest?. I would like to make such region unconquerable, but if you think it shoudl be conquerable, I'm not going to argue much. I'm now only gonna say why making it unconquerable makes sense to me - because making so would be more ... historical as neither Turks, nor the Spanish conquered that territory. Still, passing it and making bases there would be possible, as well as hiring mercenaries probably.



Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

I think we don't need dense forest in mod. What do you think?

I think we dont need anything "impassable". At least not in the crowded Western Europe.

The point of having "dense" forests from the game mechanics point of view ensures that rebels dont appear in certain areas, i.e. only appear where you want them to. Consider this as well. So In the huge russian provinces it might make sense having a few dense areas just to avoid rebles spamming everywhere.

Still, passing it and making bases there would be possible, as well as hiring mercenaries probably.

You mean a territory with no capital?

If that is it, its ok with me...

[Eastside Character]

You mean a territory with no capital?

If that is it, its ok with me...

I mean a province with a capital but with no acess to it (like its behind some mountains or inside impasable-dense forest area. It's not possible to make a region have to capital.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

I mean a province with a capital but with no acess to it (like its behind some mountains or inside impasable-dense forest area. It's not possible to make a region have to capital.

Regards
EC

surrounded by "dense" forest?

[Eastside Character]

The province list has been updated. There are few things I need to know (look for question marks). I'd appreciate some feedback. All of the regions in the list (plus some more that aren't there yet) have been moded into campaign.

I still need info on Great Britain

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

How many regions do you want in UK?

Scotland: Capitals should be Edimburgh and Glasgow. (if we stick to 2 provinces that is)

I was just thinking, if Scotland has only 2 provinces, it is really easy for the english (or anyone else, for that matter) to conquer them outright. Blitz them.

Still, Scotland is not a hugely populated area, and thus probaly doesnt deserve more provinces, so maybe a "scottish" resource should be placed to make it rebellious if it doesnt belong to Scotland. Or make a lot of easlily ambushable areas around the cities to slow down the attacker....


How many provinces will Wales get?

[Ironside]

I would guess that Blunflo is the best capital for Jamtland and Harjedalen. It's about 20 km south-east of current Östersund (founded 1745 so Östersund is outside our time-period). It seems to be the best choise. Otherwise you could choose Sveg if it makes for a better map.

Some areas in northen Sweden could be made impassable, but you should be able to tavel from Norway to Sweden at some places up there. I should take time to do so though (= thickest passable forest).

[Eastside Character]

How many regions do you want in UK?

About ten: Ireland - 1, Wales - 1, Scotland - 2, England - 6 or 7.
Now, about Wales there's no way it gets abother province. Scotland's 2 should make it enough, but still there can be one more if it really proves to be necessary. England ends up with up to six regions, that is six probably.

About Edinbough and Glasgow as capitals of Scottish regions, are you really sure? I mean they are located very close to each other, it kinda contradicts with what you said about making it hard to conquer Scotland. I'd rather make Iverness or Dundee capital of the second Scottish region, but I'm not sure about the historical corectness of it. I'd be the best if someone from UK, or better Scotland gave us some hint or something.

For what I can think of now for England, there would be regions like:

City of London - London
? - Oxford
Wessex and Cornwall- Southampton
Kent - Dover
? - Nottingham
Anglia - Cambridge
Northumbria - York

That's just my idea and I'm not really sure if historically accurate. As you see I know little about it.

Regards
EC

[Eastside Character]

I would guess that Blunflo is the best capital for Jamtland and Harjedalen. It's about 20 km south-east of current Östersund (founded 1745 so Östersund is outside our time-period). It seems to be the best choise. Otherwise you could choose Sveg if it makes for a better map.

Some areas in northen Sweden could be made impassable, but you should be able to tavel from Norway to Sweden at some places up there. I should take time to do so though (= thickest passable forest).

Very good info thanks a bunch! Could you also gave some link showing approximate location of Blunflo? And about forest in Scandinavia - I'd really appreciate some info on it.

Regards
EC

[Sundjata Keita]

Hey I'm from U.K. maybee I could help with the regions. Here are my ideas.

England

Essex - London
Kent - Canterbury
Wessex - Winchester
Northumbria - York
Oxfordshire - oxford
Nottinghamshire - Nottingham
Sussex - Hastings

Wales

Wales - Cardiff

Ireland

Leinster - Dublin

Scotland

Galloway* - Glasgow
Louthiane - Edinburgh**

* Actually Endinburh and Glasgow were both in Louthiane so I picked the nearest province - Galloway
** Edinburgh then was called Edynburgh

[Eastside Character]

Thanks Sundjata Keita, that's what I needed. Only one thing tho, should then Ireland be named Leinster?

Regards
EC

[Sundjata Keita]

Well Ireland was split into four provinces at the time; munster, leinster, connaught and ulster. Dublin was in leinster but if you only want Ireland as one province then name it Ireland as it makes more sense. If you want Northern Ireland as a seperate one call it Ulster and call Ireland Ireland.

[Ironside]

Old railroad map

You can find Östersund and Storsjön on other maps correct? It's a map over alternative railroads in case you're wondering.

Other wise you can use this one
infosverige
Click on jämtlands län and zoon in a bit and you should find it.

And about forests, eehh uhmm take Norrland, put on forest, then make the entire area forest. There you have it. Same thing with northern Finland. Large parts of Småland was/is also forrested.
If you're going to redue the travelable forest in northen Sweden, we can assume that armies will go close to the rivers (älvarna), so the passable areas would follow the rivers as much as possible.
In southern Sweden is all forest passable.

Terrain hights
Gives you the mountain area atleast.

percentage of forest by area
And this it the situation today . It gets even worse considering that alot of the rest is swamps and "mountains at the surfuce". 11% of Swedens area is built on (3%) or agricultivated (8%) today. What I can see, it seems to be close to what it was earlier.

[SwordsMaster]

Thanks Sundjata Keita, that's what I needed. Only one thing tho, should then Ireland be named Leinster?

Regards
EC

Come on, only one?

Im living in Ireland at the moment, and at least Ulster should get a province. Think that the religious wars started at this time between catholics and protestants. Im not asking for 7-8 counties, but at least 2-4 provinces...

[Eastside Character]

Everyone has some point. First, that idea about Sussex and Hastings is not good as I can't place it correctly (or even acceptably) on the map as it's too close to Canterbury and Kent's border, so instead of that I put there Norfolk - Norwich. What do you think about that?

Now about Ireland, I agree, I checked that, and you're right about the four provinces. Still, there is no (and cannot be) Irish faction as such and so it makes Ireland less important globally. All there can be is three regions, so now you call them:
Leinster - Dublin
Ulster - ?
? - ?

But making those regions means I have to delete some others, I was thinking about what regions aren't important as much as to leave them and I picked:
Moravia - Brno
Bourbonnais - Moulins

Moravia can be merged with Bohemia and it afterall was populated by Czechs. Historically it always (in mods timeframe) belonged to rulers of Bohemia etc. etc. it's a good choice to get rid of this region.

Bourbonnais wasn't a particularly important province and I think France will have enough regions to keep it strong anyway.

And thank's for all that stuff Ironside That's really helpful.

I like some many people are active!

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Ulster - Belfast
? - Cork would be my choice as it divides the country nicely

[Sundjata Keita]

Munster - Cork

Yeah good point EC did not think about how close together the cities might be. I don't know if Norwich has any historical background though as any kind of city although the only other town I can think of in Norfolk is Great Yarmouth. I will look into it later.

[Eastside Character]

I put there Norwich as it appears on all my europe maps since the end of XVc. map, and that's exactly our period. But if there should be some other province and city used, that's ok. Just make the decision today as I want to finish the province arrangement today.

Regards
EC

[Sundjata Keita]

I think maybee you should make another province towards the north as otherwise Northumbria will be huge I suggest Lancashire - Preston

[Eastside Character]

The region list has been updated and it now counts 194, although there are actually 197 regions, I gotta find which I missed...

Anyway there are 3 regions left that I myself didn't want to use, but if anyone has some ideas prehaps we can use them.

Soon I'll present some screens of the whole map, so now I'm preparing for it (making the texturing looking better and changing geoghraphy).

That atlas I got is really helpful, I found a page with economic map of europe in XVIc. Think that can help in the whole resources/tradable goods matter.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

That atlas I got is really helpful, I found a page with economic map of europe in XVIc. Think that can help in the whole resources/tradable goods matter.

Which one is it? Just out of curiosity.