campaign map development (P&M RTW)

[Moros]

just a note: I missed two important city's: Antwerps and Brugge (not sure if it's the correct Englisch name for the last city) but in the 15th Century Brugge had the most important port of Western Europe. they imported wool from England, they imported food from the Baltic states and they traded with the Italiens. In the 16th Century Antwerps take over the Brugge's monopoly. Then when the war between spain and the Nothern Netherland started all the economic trade went to Amsterdam. These are true facts so I suggest adding at least adding one of those. Perhaps by deleting Ghent wich wasn't as important Antwerps or Brugge at start of the game.

[Eastside Character]

This is this major map update I've been talking about before.

I have updated the first post with screens.

As I checked it is correct and both Brugge and Antwerp were signifficant trade centers, but I haven't yet made any changes. I think I'll rename and relocate Ghent to Brugge most probably as Netherlands are very crowded anyway.

Obviously the map isn't yet 100% ready, as I have to add forests to many places as well as make some other minor changes. I bet you'll come up with what to enhance/change.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Most impressive EC . Great job!

[Ironside]

Looks exellent

Although some links doesn't work.

[Sundjata Keita]

Very good

Few changes in Africa though Benghazi should be Darnah
Should add Rusicade as a city
Look at a sattelite image to see there is more desert near Oran

[SwordsMaster]

Hey, EC, I've been taking a closer look at the map, and have a few comments on Spain:

There should be more mountains stretching west of Madrid (actually that range tretches almost to Lisbon, but that would be too much...)

Also, More mountains surrounding Granada. The city itself is at 2000m over sea level. That range stretches almost all the way up to Seville. The range north of Granada and Seville should stretch a few more tiles to the west too.

In general, the terrain north of seville has quite a lot of hills too. (They grow olives there )

The peaks between Pamplona and Valladolid should be removed. Instead, Valladolid should be moved a tile or 2 east.


Also, If possible, the port of Granada, should be in modern day Cartagena, on the east coast, about 300+- km south of Valencia, if possible. There were no really important ports on the south coast apart from Cadiz.

I love kingdom of Naples. And is Sicily finally getting 1 prov only?

[Eastside Character]

SwordsMaster
I will correct the spanish regions later as I aint home right now. Anyway I think tomorrow evening I will be able to do sth. As for Sicily, well I'm aware that both Mesana and Syracuse were important in our mods timeframe, we can't have them. Or we can't have them both, because theoretically we can still add three regions.

Sundjata Keita
I will correct Africa as well, later.

Ironside
You're right about that screen not showing up, I'll upload another one later.

I'm glad you like the general characteristics of the map. Still there are some places on which I have to work on more, like that bay by which Edynburgh is located - it isnt sailable right now, and it should be. Similar thing is with that bay west to Stockholm, although I haven't actually sailed there. I think I'll have to try tomorrow. But all in all, the coasts of the added northern areas are accessible and cause no problems.

Regards
EC

[Eastside Character]

Hey, EC, I've been taking a closer look at the map, and have a few comments (...)

I would like everyone viewing the screens to take a closer look, that's the point exactly. I'm posting screens for you to get some feedback on flaws.

Regards
EC

[Eastside Character]

I guess now that provinces are pretty much done (will later post changes screenshots), we can focus more on tradable goods and resources list, and then resources for particular regions.

From what has been said in discussion about resources in the general P&M RTW thread, and from what I have learned from other historical books, here are the resources/tradable goods I can come up with right now:

01-gold
02-silver
03-copper
04-iron
05-lead
06-quicksilver
07-timber
08-coal
09-glass
10-metalworks
11-textiles
12-linen
13-silk
14-wool
15-cotton
16-hides
17-furs
18-grain
19-salt
20-spices
21-sugar
22-wine
23-cattle
24-high quality horses
25-camels
26-slaves
27-fish

Many resources from the list above appear in vanilla RTW.

So what are your other suggestions, as I think there should be more?

Regards
EC

[Sundjata Keita]

I think you have everything important apart from fish which was quite tradable at the time. If you want more there are lots of other things introduced around the period, tobacco for instance.

Once the whole lists sorted I can give you the resources for Africa which you can then cut down slightly for game balance.

[Zafer]

Looks great. Some things I think are important however...

Tatars and other central Asian states are Turkic and Muslim people, they are not Cossacks, which were Ukrainian or Russian I believe?

I can help you with the province and city names for the Turkic nations if you wish (Ottomans, Central Asian states, Tatars, etc). The Turks also write in the latin alphabet, so making the spelling correct is easy.

Some changes to be made

Ottomans -
Angora = Ankara
Trebizond = Trabzon

The other city names located in the Ottoman Empire are fine because they are not ethnically Turkish cities, and should retain their original Balkan names.

and

Tatars (located in Crimea) -
Bakhcheserai = Bahceseray (pronounced the same)

Because of the Ottoman Empire and other Turkic states location on the silk road, and long tradition of nomadic horseback riding (remember these guys are the cousins of Mongols), I believe they should have easy access to silk and definitely easy access to high quality horses.

I think you have done a great job for the Ottoman Empire territories, I am looking at a 1500 AD map right now and everything is there.

Keep up the good work.

[Eastside Character]

Looks great. Some things I think are important however...

Tatars and other central Asian states are Turkic and Muslim people, they are not Cossacks, which were Ukrainian or Russian I believe?

I can help you with the province and city names for the Turkic nations if you wish (Ottomans, Central Asian states, Tatars, etc). The Turks also write in the latin alphabet, so making the spelling correct is easy.

Some changes to be made

Ottomans -
Angora = Ankara
Trebizond = Trabzon

The other city names located in the Ottoman Empire are fine because they are not ethnically Turkish cities, and should retain their original Balkan names.

and

Tatars (located in Crimea) -
Bakhcheserai = Bahceseray (pronounced the same)

Thank a lot for all the corrections. I only knew Trebizond is Trabzon, but kept the english name. Next time you see any screens of Asia Minor, you see the names you've given.

Because of the Ottoman Empire and other Turkic states location on the silk road, and long tradition of nomadic horseback riding (remember these guys are the cousins of Mongols), I believe they should have easy access to silk and definitely easy access to high quality horses.

Certainly so, silk and textiles are going to be most common goods, but there also will be (or I think should be):
iron (Trabzon, Adana, Syria),
linen (Anatolia),
wool (Anatolia and Konya),
glass (Istanbul, Aleppo),
metalugry (Istanbul, Syria, Trabzon (actually in Sivas)).
About the horses, I think they will have to be in most of Ottoman provinces.

I think you have done a great job for the Ottoman Empire territories, I am looking at a 1500 AD map right now and everything is there.

Thanks, I was trying to do my best. Ottoman Empire is probably the most important power of the P&M period and any help with making things correct is most welcome.

Regards
EC

[Moros]

I think wool is a must, Britain and flanders (SOuthern part of the Netherlands) traded lots of wool.
Slaves well, I don't know how much to the south you're map will be. Cause yuou could only buy slaves in Africa.
Horses? Well I don't know perhaps high quality horses are bettter cause in those areas I think you could buy lots off horses anyway.
Salt,pepper and other spices I would defenatly add them cause wasn't those one of the reasons the east was very rich. but then again that is if you'd add Asia otherwise I wouldn't add so much spices.

I have nothing to say about the other rescources as I am no historican so not everything I said (euhm..wrote) could be historically correct.But I thiught a few comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

PS: sorry for my bad Englisch.

[Moros]

Cause I can't edit my post for some reasons I'll just have to send a new message:

About Brugge and those rescources well I just remembered a few maps In my historical Atlas wich you may find usefull tough it is in dutch I could send you a translation of things if you don't know what it means. The maps contain city's (include brugge) their enconmic activites and an otherone has rescources on it and trading routs. It also shows how imporatant Brugge was in that time. (the first one is only of the netherlands and the secon is of Western Europe)

[Sundjata Keita]

You can edit your posts once you become a member.

Just wanted to say you could also get African slaves in coastal Spanish provinces because of the moors and the rebellions of the Africans once they had been captured which led to some interesting unit types (the pirates I mentioned)

[Zafer]

Well, keep in mind that the Barbary and Ottoman Pirates took about 1 million white slaves in a span of over a hundred years to North Africa. There were instances even in which they went to Iceland and took over 100 people back to North Africa. British coasts were in constant threat of attack (in 3 years the pirates took over 7,000 British into slavery by capturing their ships off the coast).

In America it's an understandably common misperception that slaves were always African.

[Sundjata Keita]

true, very true (never knew they went to iceland though!)

[Eastside Character]

I've been working on the map lately a little...

SwordsMaster
I corrected Iberian geography quite a bit as you suggested, here are the new screens:










And as the last screen shows Portugal I need to ask if we really need that Algarve province? I mean it is so small, has no port, it's only a symbolic region to me, so that the Portugal is not only one region. But as far as I know Algarve wasn't that important at that time compared o other cities like Porto, Braga, Coimbra, so why not to replace Algarve with some other region? I'm not an expert on Iberian affairs, but to me if would seem that Porto is the best option. Anyway what do you think?

And should there be any forests in Iberian peninsula, if yes where approximately?

Sundjata Keita
Here's what are the African regions right now. Cyan dots mark ports, white dots - cities. I know you had some suggestions, so could you point out all the changes you think are necessary?


I'm changing and tweaking other places in map as well.


Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

ok, I'll tackle those last pics one by one:

pic 1:
Pirenees should be more massive, maybe hillyer instead of actual impassable mountains, but definitely more voluminous.

The mountains N of Madrid should be also thicker. Just add a little bit more of them between the mountain range that is there now and Madrid. Also, the terrain NE and NW of the city is hilly.

The "chunk" of mountains between Valencia and Madrid is to be moved north to create almost a line In the Madrid-Corsica direction.

The terrain between Leon and Santiago is definitely hilly, although it is pretty flat around Leon itself. Galicia is a really eroded mountain block and has very little flat lands.

South of Toledo (it is not on the map, but just to give you an orientation) there should be a small mountain range: a line of peaks surrounded by hills before entering (going S) some fertile lands and another mountain range N of Seville.

pic2:

Cartagena (Valencia port) is ok. There is hilly terrain around it too, and its quite arid.

pic3 &4:

The mountain range is ok on the west, but it describes a "V" shape around Seville and the river. Seville being the moust "open" part of the "V" and the river valley stretching between the mountains.

Granada is ok, Add hills on the flat areas as it is literally surrounded by mountains (but will still have to be accessible).


Portugal:

You are right. Porto is much more significative from every point of view than Algarve. The problem with Porto is that it is split in 2 by the Douro and it is hard to represent. There were very important docks in Porto too.

[Sundjata Keita]

These are the regions as I understand them, can you please tell me what the question marks are and why there is a part of Biledulgerid seperated from the rest.

[Eastside Character]

ok, I'll tackle those last pics one by one:

pic 1:
Pirenees should be more massive, maybe hillyer instead of actual impassable mountains, but definitely more voluminous.

The mountains N of Madrid should be also thicker. Just add a little bit more of them between the mountain range that is there now and Madrid. Also, the terrain NE and NW of the city is hilly.

The "chunk" of mountains between Valencia and Madrid is to be moved north to create almost a line In the Madrid-Corsica direction.

The terrain between Leon and Santiago is definitely hilly, although it is pretty flat around Leon itself. Galicia is a really eroded mountain block and has very little flat lands.

South of Toledo (it is not on the map, but just to give you an orientation) there should be a small mountain range: a line of peaks surrounded by hills before entering (going S) some fertile lands and another mountain range N of Seville.

pic2:

Cartagena (Valencia port) is ok. There is hilly terrain around it too, and its quite arid.

Ok, up to this point its all good, I've already been making some of the suggested adjustments.

pic3 &4:

The mountain range is ok on the west, but it describes a "V" shape around Seville and the river. Seville being the moust "open" part of the "V" and the river valley stretching between the mountains.

Now here, I don't think I get what your saying. I mean you say the mountain range is ok on the west and then talk about V shape around Seville and the river (Gwadalkiwir or sth?) but that's actually west of Granada, so I'm confused.

Granada is ok, Add hills on the flat areas as it is literally surrounded by mountains (but will still have to be accessible).


Portugal:

You are right. Porto is much more significative from every point of view than Algarve. The problem with Porto is that it is split in 2 by the Douro and it is hard to represent. There were very important docks in Porto too.

Douro for a border works fine, so what's the name of that Porto region, and so if the rest is simply Portugal, or sth different?

These are the regions as I understand them, can you please tell me what the question marks are and why there is a part of Biledulgerid seperated from the rest.

So lets take a look at those question marks (look from left to right):
- port for Tanger
- Tunisia
- part of Biledulgerid

And as for Biledulgerid, I hoped to make it a region which could not be owned by any faction, but could be controlled by any. The idea is to place city in a mountain so there's no way out or in, or make it possible only to go out, but not in the settlement (I tested it and it's possible). This doesn't mean rebels (Berbers) who would permanently own the province are immobile. There would still be rebel forces comming from neighboring regions and as said before, rebels can be 'permitted' only to go out of their town. What do you think? This way I think, Biledulgerid would be more similar to what it was, well, and prehaps still is to some extent.

Oh, and I believe it's Oran not Telesin.

Regards
EC

[Sundjata Keita]

I was talking about the region not the port
Telesin is the region - Oran is the city
I think the whole area was called Tunis at the time rarther than Tunisia

I think maybee you should rename it into a different province if you have enough left otherwise just join the two areas up with an extra bit on the bottom part of Berdoa.

[SwordsMaster]

Now here, I don't think I get what your saying. I mean you say the mountain range is ok on the west and then talk about V shape around Seville and the river (Gwadalkiwir or sth?) but that's actually west of Granada, so I'm confused.

Yeah, sorry, I meant the east.

Douro for a border works fine, so what's the name of that Porto region, and so if the rest is simply Portugal, or sth different?

I´ll come back to this.

EDIT: Found a map that might be useful: on this page.

[Eastside Character]

Hey, I've been tweaking the map a bit here and there, here are some samples:

Zaporozhye


Sich was really an island so I wanted to try to make it so. It's separated by river from every side, eventhough as you can see in screenshot 2 there is actually a space between two ends of river. All in all the settlement is only accessible from bridges east and west of Sich. The screen 3 shows Zaporozhyan port separated from the rest of the region by part of Yedisan
and Crimea. Zaporozhyan Cossacks had their own navy and often used it in raids into Ottoman territory, so giving them a port is a fair decision I think. Moreover, the whole arrangement of that particular area, makes the whole territory of the provinces bordering Zaporozhye from south-west have almost no roads! And thats how it should be.

Baltic Islands


I've been working on the cosmetics of Baltic Islands, still have to work more on Sweden and Norway tho.

The Netherlands


I've tied making some Frisian Islands and it worked, so I went further and also changed Zealand and added port for Brabant, which i located approximately in place of Antwerps I think. I was also thinking that port for Groningen is not right. I've been checking this thing with different maps and so and I conclude Groningen should not have a port. Still the Dutch should be strong mostly thanks to their navy and taking away the port from Groningen makes it the United Netherlands end up with 2 ports. Realisticly, they have almost no chances with Spanish fleet if France is not in war with Spain. So does anyone have any ideas where could that third port could be placed instead of in Groningen's region?

Closer look on the Pireneyes


They are more massive, I elevated them quite a bit and also the whole area around is more hilly.

North-East Spain


Portugal


Was thinking, what about that Porto region be named like Minho e Douro, I've seen the name in the georgaphical atlas and I think it was the name of that coastal part of the region, the rest is Traz os Montes but I'm thinking that can be a name of some mountain range or not? Where is Dementhor? He should know 'everything' about Portugal, right?

Granada


Granada has to have a road connection with Seville as there was an important traiding route, and so the mountain range in that part is a bit reduced. The river cannot be as its in reality so the V shape of the whole area is not very much possible.

Anyway, if it's still very much not correct - I will correct.

North-West Spain


And some other questions I have:
-which Irish regions should have ports (I know only that Dublin should)
-if Glasgow should have a port or not (as would I say)
-should Osterbotten and Vasterbotten have ports (I don't know most of my maps don't cover that far north)
-if Trondheim should have a port

That's all, for now.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

I´ll have a look at the spanish maps tomorrow. Right now, how are the sieges on Zaporozhye going to work? are there problems with the river?

[Eastside Character]

Sieges work fine, a besiging army has stand on one of the bridges (east or west) and the siege is normal in other aspects. I haven't yet tessed a possibility when the besieged crew wants to break out and attacked the besieger. I wonder if such battle will be a river battle, or just a regular siege battle. I would say it should be (or I'd like it more) the first possibility, so a river battle. Will have to check it.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, here we go:

Pyrenees: As far as I know, the only 2 viable routes across the pyrenees were coastal, ie the route N of Barcelona and the route N of Pamplona. So IMO the road in the middle shouldnt exist.

Madrid&surrounding mountains: It looks perfect, good job.

Sevilla & V shape: Can you then make hills instead of mountains between Sevilla and Granada, and make the mountains N of Sevilla a bit more massive?

Porto: Is it possible to make Porto on one side of the river (SOuth) and its port on the N side of the river? That would make the impression of the city split by the river as it is in reality.

I can show you a picture if you want.

Besides the docks are on the northern side of the city anyway.

NW of Spain: unite the 2 mountain ranges between Santiago and Leon with hills and an occasional mountain.

Otherwise, the map is very good.

I cant comment on how provinces in Portugal are named, but if in doubt you can always call them Porto and Lisbon and call it a day.


I was also thinking about the Sich and IMHO it shouldnt be be upgradable past wooden palisades (as it is in reality, they still stand there...) and REALLY high unrest.

[Moros]

about the United Netherlands, Amsterdam was he biggest port of the United Netherlands in the 17th Century but Im' not sure if it had a big port before that. I'll look it up in my historical atlas, though I'm not sure it's in it.

[Moros]

Two Helpful maps (I translated everything I could)



About those ports, I'm not sure How the Netherlands is going to start will it be Only the Northern part or will it also contain Flanders. Or is after the war with spain? (this all depens on when the game starts) If it's Flander and northern Netherlands I'd say make it Amsterdam Antwerps (Brussels) and Brugge (Antwerps and Brugge had huge ports and Amsterdam was "famous" for its shipbuilding, see the map)
Otherwise Perhaps only Rotterdam and Amsterdam.
Btw: I love your new touch to the North of Netherlands.

[Ignoramus]

Looks great! When will it be completed?