campaign map development (P&M RTW)

[Narayanese]

Göteborg was founded in 1620 (source), before that the swedish west coast port was Älvsborg, at almost exactly the same place as Göteborg, and just as important for sweden (historical note: Älvsborg was taken by denmark in the 1560s, but bought back for 150.000 riksdaler), so Goteborg should be renamed to Alvsborg in the early campaign.

The first system for transporting ships through Stockholm (dictionary says the english word is "lock") was built in 1642(source). The water passes through Stockholm through Strömmen, a shallow rapid which only small boats with little keel can pass.
Södertälje kanal was built in the reign of Karl XI (17th century) (source), but was secondary to the passage through Stockholm (says Nordisk Familjebok, an encyclopedia).
So there was no passage for warships between Mälaren and the Baltic Sea in most of the period of this mod.

[Eastside Character]

Ok man, so here is Stockholm as I have it now; so what's wrong with it (I'm asking cause I don't know all those names you used describing the area)?



I got a few more screenshots of what's been corrected, changed, etc. etc. and I need your help, cause got some problems I cannot solve myself, see them listed below Below*.

Spain, hopefully now everything is OK? Or not?



Below*

Problem 1, Kakheti's town and its location, what I got now is wrong and I can't find what it should be.


Problem 2, Circassia's town and its location, rest the same as in Problem 1 above.


Problem 3, where precisely to locate Blunflo.



Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, Spain finally looks fine. And you´ll be glad not to hear a nitpicker like me whining again .Ah well its all good.

[Narayanese]

I can't find any town called Blunflo in my swedish atlas, however I found Brunflo, a town at the eastern tip of the lake Storsjön in Jämtland. The other names on the map is my assumptions of what rivers and lake you have included on the map.


Here's what I meant about Stockholm. I have included Hjälmaren (a lake) because it was a rather big lake before the 19th century, before it was made deeper (by use of explosives) to make room for farms (was a few year since I read it though, in the school history book). The only natural passage for water from Mälaren to the Baltic Sea is through the middle of Stockholm. Strömmen is one of two places in Stockholm where water can pass. At the cuty of Södertälje, there is a narrow piece of land separating Mälaren from baltic sea. Stockholms old wharf, is on Beckholmen and Skeppsholmen (two small island next to eachother), is due east of Stockholm's Old Town (the old town is two islands between the points where water flows from Mälaren to baltic sea), on the baltic sea coast, in Uppland (the landskap (province) north of Stockholm), however they are more or less inside Stockholm. Stockholms old commercial port is simply the shores of the old town.
I green is what I think is a better coastline.

[Narayanese]

just to clarify: brunflo is north of Ljungan. It might be Indalsälven you have included on the map (but I don't think so, Indalsälven doesn't seem big in my atlas), Brunflo is south of Indalsälven, but if the river is Indalsälven then Storsjön is a little too far north.

[Ironside]

Brunflo is correct Blunflo is spelling mistake (and I missed it for like forever ).

[Eastside Character]

Hey all, I have some things corrected, some to correct prehaps...

Stockholm


from Kalmar to Abo


some other view on Sweden

So it is Brunflo, and I changed Goteborg to Alvsborg too.

and here, a more Norwegian view


I'm wondering if Bergen is OK? Is it? I mean I doubt it is 100% correct to be honest.


The North, the question is if it should be there possible to have ports or not?


A different story here, the whole Massive Centrale area redone.


Bordeaux's port at the mouth or Garonne river.


The Alps have been reworked as well, they are more massive and elevated now.


That's all for now. I'm waiting for your comments and corrections.


Regards
EC

[Narayanese]

Bergen was founded in th 12th century, and was an important merchant city, exported mostly dried fish.
http://hem.passagen.se/anfreas/stadshansor.htm
Maybe you've placed it a bit too far south, I don't know.
You might consider if western norway shouldn't be more mountainous, the norwegian coast, except Bohuslän (near Göteborg) and the Oslo fjord, is mostly mountains after all, almost no flat land.

It seem there was no mayor port in Österbotten, a few small illegal ones (for food import - österbotten has almost no farms - and export of fur and animal fat), and a medium big port (not big but bigger than just a fishing village) in today's Vasa/Vaasa.
I can't find any refernence of anything other than fishing village ports in västerbotten/norrbotten, so I suppose they didn't have any big port.
So I think Österbotten should have Vasa as fishing village and Västerbotten shouldn't have any port at all, but I don't have good sources for that.

Öland (the island outsida Kalmar) has alvar (~steppe) on the southern part of it, that part south (but not including) the point of Öland that is due east of Kalmar. The terrain there is a little grass and flowers and very shallow soil, I think it should be "Low Fertility" grassland.

kanal means channel btw

[SwordsMaster]

Looks good enough to me, although Bourdeaux port is actually in Bourdeaux and Orleans is spelled Orleans.

[Eastside Character]

Hey, here are some new changes:

Denmark and some islands.


Norway, more mountainous and with redone fjords.


northern Norway, some pretty cold place they say, and mountainous too.


closer view on Bergen, I'm now only not sure where to place its port as there is very little space there


Trondheim and its surroundings


Central Europe, redone to a certain extent


Carpathian Mountains


Alps, again


Venice, placed on a sorf of 'island', and still not really an island

So I think Österbotten should have Vasa as fishing village and Västerbotten shouldn't have any port at all, but I don't have good sources for that.

Done.

kanal means channel btw

Funny enough, in my mother tongue, kanal means channel. But what's the whole point abour kanal, I mean I don't think I asked what that means?

Looks good enough to me, although Bourdeaux port is actually in Bourdeaux and Orleans is spelled Orleans.

That about Bordeaux, I think you know a port cannot be placed inside of a city, but there even has to be a 1 tile space (minimum ofcourse) between a port and a city, hence I placed Bordeaux's port as near as I it is actually possible.

About Orleans, thanks I will correct it very soon.

Regards
EC

[Narayanese]

Nice, now Norway just just as forbidding as in the atlas. Stockholm and Brunflo also looks fine. Good work! I also like the Venice "island", I think it's the closest you can get to that little protected island Venice is situated upon.

But what's the whole point abour kanal, I mean I don't think I asked what that means?

Nevermind, I just saw I hadn't translated it in a previous post.

[SwordsMaster]

EC, would it be possible to change the "wall" model on the campaign map to something different? Redoubts per example.

I think we are not going to include wooden walls in cities. The only settlement of importance with wooden walls at the time was the Sich as far as I remember.

So there is no point including wooden walls in the campmap. Instead replacing the "wooden wall" icon with the "stone wall" one, and replacing the "stone wall" with the "redoubt". And the same should apply to the building roster, except for the Sich that would start with wooden walls.

What do you guys think?

[Eastside Character]

EC, would it be possible to change the "wall" model on the campaign map to something different? Redoubts per example.

I think we are not going to include wooden walls in cities. The only settlement of importance with wooden walls at the time was the Sich as far as I remember.

So there is no point including wooden walls in the campmap. Instead replacing the "wooden wall" icon with the "stone wall" one, and replacing the "stone wall" with the "redoubt". And the same should apply to the building roster, except for the Sich that would start with wooden walls.

What do you guys think?

Yes, it is possible, but I think we should do a different trick here. I'm saying we don't need ANY rtw castles/settlements/walls models, we have to have new ones. Thats the best solution. Actually, all models which will appear on the camp map should be our own and not rtw ones.

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Yes, it is possible, but I think we should do a different trick here. I'm saying we don't need ANY rtw castles/settlements/walls models, we have to have new ones. Thats the best solution. Actually, all models which will appear on the camp map should be our own and not rtw ones.

Regards
EC

Well, yeah, that would be the best option, but that is a bit ambitious, so I thought that even if we can reuse some of them it would be good enough.

Of course if it is possible to redo them all, that would be just great.

[Templar Knight]

why not have the capital of lowland Scotland as Edinburgh and the Capital of the highlands Inverness rather than the two cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh so close together. It would allow for some nice highland battles as the enemy drew nearer to Inverness

[Eastside Character]

I'm experimenting with map's textures:

why not have the capital of lowland Scotland as Edinburgh and the Capital of the highlands Inverness rather than the two cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh so close together. It would allow for some nice highland battles as the enemy drew nearer to Inverness

Hmm, maybe its a good idea, but I'm not a Scottish expert. Any experts for this one?

Sincerely
EC

[Templar Knight]

Im a Scottish expert

[AlexPeters]

Some questions and proposals:
I've seen this city in Northern Germany, called Klin, well, i've never heared about before. There's the city of Kiel, quite important during the 1st and 2nd WW as a military harbour. But as far as i'm remembering its importance came from the circumstance that it is located on the eastern entrance of the North Sea - Baltic Sea Channel and this channel was build about 1900, before the city wasn't of any importance.
The rulers of Schleswig og Holstein as the area was called in Danish (Schleswig-Holstein in nowadays German) have lived in Gottorf, Schleswig or Glücksburg (near Flensburg) and as far as i know you'd better choose Schleswig as the main city there.
I've added a map of the area:
Map of Northern Germany

Another proposal, also Northern Germany:
There's a mountain area south of Brunswick (in German: Braunschweig), it's called the Harz and it's peak is about 1200m, it's quite impressive and a topographic mark that was quite important. It's almost impassable and cuts together with the river Elbe the area in two halfs. The western part later becomes the english owned Hannover and the eastern part belonged to Brandenburg/Prussia.
You can see the topographie here:
Mountain area of the Harz (Panorama)
and another map here:
Mountain area of the Harz

Alex

[Eastside Character]

Im a Scottish expert

Oh, then it will be Iverness as you suggested.

Some questions and proposals: (...)

Thanx a lot for your corrections, I will adjust the map. Sorry for the many mistakes.

SICILY AND SOUTHERN ITALY
And some other thing concerning the regions.
I was looking at the whole map lately and the only place I'm not really content with is Sicily and southern Italy. I think Puglie should be merged with Calabria, as Reggio was not that important a city at all. Instead I'd like to see Messana or/and Syracuse in Sicily, as they were pretty important trade centers and large cities too. Any opinion on that?

Regards
EC

[SwordsMaster]

SICILY AND SOUTHERN ITALY
And some other thing concerning the regions.
I was looking at the whole map lately and the only place I'm not really content with is Sicily and southern Italy. I think Puglie should be merged with Calabria, as Reggio was not that important a city at all. Instead I'd like to see Messana or/and Syracuse in Sicily, as they were pretty important trade centers and large cities too. Any opinion on that?

How many regions do we have in Sicily? if we have only 1 (Palermo?) then we could add another one, but considering relative sizes of the Italian peninsula and Sicily, I wouldnt go further than that.

Besides, are there any free region slots left?

regards

[Ranika]

Ireland looks a bit empty. One of the notable features of this period's Ireland was numerous thick forests (Irish raiders commonly struck enemies in ambushes, and withdrew into the thick forests where they couldn't be followed). The northwest portion of Ireland is particularly hilly, and was difficult to manuever in (one of the reasons Connacht, even under British dominion, operated often a bit autonomously, because the British trouble moving through the territory to solidify rule). Taking Irish provinces should maybe seem a bit 'needlessly' complex due to the terrain; terrain issues made capturing and keeping regions of Ireland a severe pain.

[Eastside Character]

Besides, are there any free region slots left?

All regions but 3 are now used in campaign. I left those 3 for final touches when there will be all major regions issues solved and set in stone. It is the time we can use those 3 slots.

Ranika, thanks for your feedback. I will rework Ireland soon.

Regards
EC

[Eastside Character]

[streety]

Hi y'all

I'm primarily involved in P&M MTW, but, as a keen historian, I thought I'd offer some advice on the British campaign map for the 16th and 17th century RTW version.

Though all the towns you use certainly existed in those times, and I appreciate that you need to divide the map up in certain ways etc, you are missing Bristol, which was still the second British city after London, and during these times Bristol was key in both military campaigns and trade, both with the Old World and in founding and developing the New. Cardiff is just not relevant to any key issues of these periods. If you must have a Welsh town then I'd suggest you use Pembroke, but Wales (and the borderlands) up and through this period was still all actually adminstered from Ludlow (which by the way is still today a massive castle and beautiful walled town) just slightly over the modern "border" in England, in the county of Shropshire. I say "border" in speech marks because since Platagenet times, Wales (subjugated to the English throne) was styled a Principality, and on such a technicality is not a country in the same way as Scotland still is (our united kingdom being a mutually agreed union between the English and Scottish kingdoms).

Of the other towns you use, in addition to London, Oxford, York and Nottingham (and, up in Scotalnd, Edinburgh) are all key places for this period, but not really Canterbury, Preston or Winchester. So, I'd suggest you remove Winchester in favour of Bristol, and remove Cardiff in favour of Ludlow (or Pembroke).
Hope this helps.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

so far, I have to say (after reading the first page) that Ireland deserves more provinces, Scotland is about right.

England probably did not contain the majority of the populace of the British Isles until the end of the 18th century or so (massive immigration from the other nations probably helped in this as they ended up with lower populations and England got a higher population).

Also, Cardiff should not be the city in Wales. Somewhere like Carmarthen would be far more important for the time.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Comments on page 2:
Glasgow should have a port.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Page 3:
Streety: a kingdom does not make a nation. Consider the chunks of culturally Welsh England that suddenly appeared after Henry VIII's tinkering. Ludlow was very much on the border of Welsh and English culture. Loads of places in the English border counties have had their Welsh names replaced by new English names over the last few centuries. Definitely a cultural border even if the political borders were altered by various English monarchs.

Anyway, I say Carmarthen for the Welsh city as it was very important at the time: politically and economically.
Caerfyrddin is the Welsh spelling at the moment. I will investigate older spellings.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Streety,
Actually, seeing as I was mentioning Welsh culture on the "wrong" side of the political border I should probably mention that I think Dr Robert Owen Jones has done work on these communities and I've definitely heard that they existed into the Victorian period. Again, I'll try to find out more about this.
A bit off topic I know, sorry.

[streety]

Hi y'all,

Cheers Taff, though please note that actually I was careful not to use the word "nation" myself, because of it's potential ethnic connotations rather than purely geopolitical ones. And my use of "border" in quotes was partly because I too feel its a synthetic line across the land where in truth places like Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Montgomeryshire etc, etc, had long been something of a mix. And much of South Wales had long been a mix too.

Anyway: in trying to offer RTW people some 16th-17th century of-the-period geopolitical advice. Yes, Carmarthen may indeed be a more naturalistic choice for positioning the Welsh castle/capital in the game, and if (because of game constraints) the castle/capital needs to be in Wales, then Carmarthen or maybe Caernarfon would do admirably. But through this period, Wales itself doesn't exert a separate geopolitical force. From 1416 and the end of Glyn Dwr's civil war (I say "civil war" rather than "Welsh Rebellion" because some Welsh sided for the English crown), until 1536, when that year's "Act of Union" abolished use of the Welsh language in courts etc, and began dissolving the monasteries etc, Welsh identity thence got increasingly subsumed within that of England, and the various people in Wales, when they did fight, fought for various competing "English" factions rather than as any separate unified identity against the English. The notion of a Welsh nationhood identity thence didn't begin to recover from the English thumb until the 18th century. The administrative capital (of Wales and the Welsh border counties of England) through this 16th-17th century period was Ludow, so (given the simplistic constraints of the game) it might be best to loop the Welsh border-line around Shropshire (and upset English sensitivities). However, militarily, Harlech and/or Pembroke would be good choices (and both are in Wales proper). The first "English" Civil War formally ended on 13th March 1647 when Harlech castle fell to the Roundheads, and the Second "English" Civil War started when Pembroke castle (under the Roundhead govenor, Colonel Poyer) declared for the King in February 1648, and sized most of Pembrokeshire. So perhaps, for game play, Ludlow (with the border moved out to include it in "Wales and the Marches" (or some such title), or Pembroke, and/or Harlech, would be the best way for these guys to go, if they're at all interested.......

[SwordsMaster]

Guys, this is the campaign map development thread, so please dont wander off subject. It makes it much easier to read and understand if you just state what should be changed and why and discuss the other topics in the research or general threads.

So, is there agreement or not on the representation of Wales?

Cheers