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Thread: most powerful faction

  1. #61
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    doesn't the description at the kingdom selection phase at the very beginning describe Parthia as being rich due to sitting on the trade routes with China or something like that?
    Well, they lied. While it's true that Armenia, Parthia, and Pontus get Trade Caravans/Spice Roads/Silk Roads (+2/+3/+4 to trade), they don't begin the game with them, and there are two issues at work.

    The first is that a settlement needs to reach 12k population before you can even build a simple Trade Caravan. For Pontus, that's not a big problem because Sinope (and other port cities in Anatolia) can get there quickly. For Armenia, it's a problem at the start which is quickly remedied by eliminating Pontus and the Greek Cities and taking over Anatolia for themselves. For Parthia, only Seleucia is capable of getting to 12k in a reasonable amount of time, and horse archers are a very bad unit to be using to attack a walled city, which leaves only laying siege and waiting for the garrison to sally (or an outside stack coming to their relief). It's doable, but tough.

    Problem two are the roads. Parthia (and Armenia) can only build dirt roads which is an oversight on the part of the devs. In a discussion 'long ago and far away' about the engineering capabilities of Eastern factions, I posted a picture of a paved road in Armenia built in BCE times that led to a stone bridge spanning a ravine. And simple logic will tell you that a faction that can build stone city walls complete with buttresses, crenelations, turrets, etc., could certainly lay stone pavers for a road (and both Armenia and Parthia can build stone city walls). Why is this important? A paved road doubles the trade income along that route, a highway triples the income.

    IIRC, some simple modifications to the RTW\data\export_descr_building.txt, and RTW\data\text\export_buildings.txt, allows you give the capability to build paved roads to a faction.

    Several quotes from this article---https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/36216/jacobson_herbert_r_194005_ms_95034.pdf

    Persia, recognized by all authorities as a builder of roads, displayed considerable ingenuity in the improvement of transport and communications, much more so than in industry. The empire, extending from the Aegean to the Indus River and from the Caspian to the Indian Ocean, was interlaced with a magnificent system of highways. In order to unite and efficiently control his widespread empire, Darius I (521-485 B.C.) instructed his engineers to construct great roads between the various capitals, and over these excellent roads was maintained a government-controlled postal service such as had not hereto-fore existed on so vast a scale. The Persians inherited from the Babylonians and Assyrians a considerable network of great roads over which traffic had flowed for thousands of years regardless of the rise and fall of great empires. The most famous of these was the Royal Road which ran from Susa, the capital of Persia, through Arbela, Guagamela, Nineveh, Amide., Comana, Ancyra, Oordium, and Sardis to Ephesus. Although this road is called the Ancient Royal Road of the Persians, it was already ancient long before the Persians gained control over it.
    And an indication of how developed, and sophisticated these highways were...from Herodotus:

    With respect to this road, the case is as follows: There are royal stations all along, and excellent inns, and the whole road is through an inhabited and safe country. There are 20 stations extending through Lydia and Phrygia, and the distance is 94 parasangs and a half. After Phrygia, the river Halys is met with, at which there are gates, through which it is absolutely necessary to pass and thus to cross the river: there is also a considerable fort on it. When you cross over into Cappadocia, and traverse that country to the border of Cilicia, there are eight and twenty stations, and 104 parasangs; and on the borders of these people you go through two gates, and pass by two forts. When you have gone through these and made the journey through Cilicia, there are three stations and 15 parasangs and a half. In Armenia there are 15 stations for resting places, and 56 parasangs and a half. As you enter from Armenia into the country of Matiene, there are four stations; and from thence as you proceed to the Cissian territory there are 11 stations, and 42 para-sangs and a half to the river Choaspes, on this Susa is built. Now if the royal road has been correctly measured in parasangs, and if the parasang is equal to 30 stades, as indeed it is, from Sardis to the royal palace is a distance of 13,500 stades (1550 miles), the parasangs being 450; and by those who travel 150 stades(17i miles) every day, just 90 days are spent on the journey.
    The RTW devs would like you to believe that only the Hellenic cultures and Rome were road engineers. As you can see, that is simply not the case. Middle East cultures weren't just building simple paved roads, but highways....very sophisticated and well-designed highways.....long before Rome came along.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 11-02-2016 at 16:16.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    I have never tried Parthia, mainly because of their infantry. Or lack thereof. Slingers probably would do just as well as EI. And it's not like Hillmen are putting any fear into people. I get that Parthia has good cav, I should probably try them out sometime just to see how it goes. I do prefer cavalry heavy army, but I like to have some infantry. At least to build a ram to knock a hole in the gate so my cav can wreak havoc.

    And I love slingers against chariots, although I mainly use Rhodians or Baleric.

  3. #63
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    I had no clue the Parthians were unable to build anything other than dirt roads.

    Learn something about the game after a decade.
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  4. #64
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Now it would be a simple modification to enable paved roads for Parthia, right? And they should get a decent melee cav other than Cataphracts.
    Slingers probably would do just as well as EI
    Defense is too low. According to export_descr_unit, defense for slingers is 4, while EI is ten. And EI are a spear unit, giving them a total +16 attack bonus vs cav, -4 attack penalty against other infantry. Which means that against other infantry, slingers would be more effective, both before and during melee. So they can wear light enemies (including EI) down, before engaging in hand to hand combat if necessary, against infantry, and have more attack than either EI or Hillmen. Slingers actually have better morale than EI as well.

    Slingers actually get only two less attack than Hillmen before bonuses/penalties, same amount of men in unit, and Hillmen defense is actually lower than EI. Also spear, so same advantages/disadvantages as EI. So against cav, field EI or Hillmen, EI gain one defense, lose two attack, two lower morale, but extra forty men. If fighting infantry, you might as well be fielding slingers. Their attack is greater than EI vs infantry (who actually unupgraded get no attack vs infantry), and also than Hillmen, who unupgraded get only attack of one vs infantry. So vs Infantry, Slingers get 4 attack, EI get 0 (actually would be -1), and Hillmen get 1. So field Slingers as Parthia to deal with infantry/chariots, but protect them from cav with your infantry, and protect your infantry from their infantry.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 11-02-2016 at 21:00.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    And it's not like Hillmen are putting any fear into people.
    Never, ever, waste precious denarii on Hillmen. They have all the disadvantages of Eastern Infantry, and none of the benefits. The biggest benefit of EI over Hillmen is mass. The extra +2 attack that Hillmen get (go figure that one out as both are basically militia) does not offset the added 50% in numbers of an EI unit.

    I have never tried Parthia, mainly because of their infantry. Or lack thereof.
    Elephants, elephants, and more elephants....when you can afford them, that is

    At least to build a ram to knock a hole in the gate so my cav can wreak havoc.
    Parthia can build Onagers.

    Before taking on Parthia, browsing the Guide to Playing Parthia thread would probably help.

    Now it would be a simple modification to enable paved roads for Parthia, right?
    To add more levels of roadbuilding to any faction:

    http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/f...,3850,2220,all

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...other-factions

    Parthia, IMHO, should get highways; Armenia and Pontus should get to advance from dirt to paved (the article I posted above is a fascinating read if you have the time as it covers road engineering from ancient to modern).
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 11-02-2016 at 21:40.
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  6. #66
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Never, ever, waste precious denarii on Hillmen. They have all the disadvantages of Eastern Infantry, and none of the benefits. The biggest benefit of EI over Hillmen is mass. The extra +2 attack that Hillmen get (go figure that one out as both are basically militia) does not offset the added 50% in numbers of an EI unit.


    Parthia can build Onagers.
    Somebody did the comparison, I think it takes three units of Hillmen to defeat one unit of EI. Maybe it was two units of EI. As far as the Onagers goes, it takes a while to get to the point of building Onagers. Then again, with the lousy infantry, one should focus on upgrading the archery range and stables instead of the barracks, so you will get there more quickly. If all you need is a first level barracks for EI, then don't waste your money going better. The extra experience that is gained (if I remember correctly) from a better barracks is not worth it to improve a lousy unit that you will want to use sparingly anyway. And once you get to your better cav, forget the infantry. And if dealing with chariots, if you can have Elephants, chariots are nothing. But if you must use infantry, you are better off with slingers and archers, with maybe some EI to ?protect? them from cav. One thing is sure, with Parthia you don't want to fight using a traditional battle line.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  7. #67

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    While I realize in standard melee, EI are far better than slingers would be, I wonder if the added bonus of missile attack would be enough to field slingers instead of EI. Most of the infantry you will face will be either EI or phalanx. Either would be easy pickings for either slingers or archers.
    With Scythia, I tend to field more CAW than Axemen. Granted, CAW's melee attack and defense are far superior to Parthian slingers and archers, but the same strategy is used. I would assume that the difference in attack and defense makes the strategy less effective for Parthia. Something for me to try sometime, I guess.

  8. #68
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch the Mace View Post
    While I realize in standard melee, EI are far better than slingers would be
    Morale:
    Slingers 4
    EI 2
    Hillmen 4

    Defense
    Slingers 4
    EI 10
    Hillmen 9

    Attack vs Infantry
    Slingers 4 missile, 3 melee
    EI 1 (I am assuming if penalty results in negative attack, attack equals 1)
    Hillmen 1

    Attack vs Cav
    Slingers 4 missile, 3 melee
    EI 19
    Hillmen 21

    So if going against infantry, slingers' reduced defense can probably compensate for their lack of armour to a certain degree, especially when paired with their missile attack. That said, you don't want to leave either in prolonged melee combat.

    Ultimately, when your stables gets good, forget infantry. Use onagers to assault walls, don't even bother with archers/slingers. Go all cav.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  9. #69
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Most of the infantry you will face will be either EI or phalanx.
    Early on (game difficulty at VH/H), Seleucia will field Militia Hoplites, Militia Cavalry, and Peltasts; Armenia will field Horse Archers, Eastern Infnatry, Hillmen, and Peltasts; Egypt will field Nubian Spears, Skirmishers, Nubian Cavalry, and a few Chariot Archers. The VH campaign setting means that armies already on the map will have more advanced units even if the faction cannot recruit them yet.

    Later you will see from Seleucia, scads of Pikemen (both Levy and Phalanx), Greek Cavalry, Archers, and some Scythed Chariots; Egypt will field scads of Desert Axmen, numerous Chariot Archers, Bowmen, and Desert Cavalry. Fighting Seleucia is much easier than Egypt because other than Scythed Chariots and Greek Cavalry, their battle line plods along only as fast as the Pikemen. If you allow them to get Elephants...you have a big problem....literally Egypt is much tougher not just because of the Chariot Archer, but the Desert Axmen are very fast-moving, and the AI thinks they have a big red S on their chest. I just shake my head in amazement when the AI throws them at my heavy Cats At any rate, they get on you quickly, so skirmishing-style infantry has a hard time keeping distance.

    The problem I see using slingers against Chariot Archers is range and hitpoints. All Slingers have a range of 80 (except Rhodian and Balearic Slingers who range out at 120). Chariot Archers range out at 120 which means that they will stay out of range and pepper you to death. Even if you get slingers into range, you've got to tear through the CA's hitpoints before you can start killing them. I find it hard to believe that a) you'll have enough slingers left to get the job done; and b) the slingers won't attract the attention of enemy cavalry.

    I never had much luck with slingers, and stopped using them altogether. Doesn't mean, however, that they can't be useful for those who like them.
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  10. #70
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    The problem I see using slingers against Chariot Archers is range and hitpoints. All Slingers have a range of 80 (except Rhodian and Balearic Slingers who range out at 120). Chariot Archers range out at 120 which means that they will stay out of range and pepper you to death. Even if you get slingers into range, you've got to tear through the CA's hitpoints before you can start killing them. I find it hard to believe that a) you'll have enough slingers left to get the job done; and b) the slingers won't attract the attention of enemy cavalry.

    I never had much luck with slingers, and stopped using them altogether. Doesn't mean, however, that they can't be useful for those who like them.
    I don't use them against chariot archers, though I certainly like them for dealing with chariots and unarmoured units, especially when firing from elevation. Especially if I am using Balearic/Rhodian Slingers. Slingers are actually better in EB (AP even), that is where I first actually really started fielding them regularly. I only discovered their usefulness in RTW as a desperation move to see if I could knock out some Armoured Hoplites from the rear, if that made a difference. It did. But in most cases, you will not be able to run them behind the enemy because of enemy cav. It just so happens that Greeks don't field much cav unless it is Militia Cav, and then the slingers can deal with them too. Also, as you said, Balearics and Rhodians have more range than standard slingers, so that makes a difference.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 11-03-2016 at 07:29.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  11. #71

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    One of the reasons I despise Egypt is their chariot archers. Yes, I definitely try to keep my slingers out of their range. If I have straight up missile units vs inf, I almost prefer slingers to archers. Although slingers definitely require more attention due to the fact that you can't have them behind your line of infantry. Against chariot archers, good archers are the way to go. Not sure what kind of range Cat Archers have, but I do like them against Egypt, because then I have a heavily armoured, very mobile archer unit; one that can go toe to toe with chariot archers.

  12. #72

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    I should specify that I rarely train a factions slingers. The slingers I am referring to are Baleric and Rhodian.

  13. #73
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch the Mace View Post
    One of the reasons I despise Egypt is their chariot archers. Yes, I definitely try to keep my slingers out of their range.
    Does anybody know if range improves with experience or weapons upgrades?

    Slingers are less than effective against armoured units in a frontal attack. Then again, I had lightly-upgraded Greek-style archers launch like seven volleys at LC before inflicting one casualty, so against high-armoured units, even archers don't do that much. Attacks from behind (and I believe the right side) inflict more casualties, as even Cohort and AH fall prey to attacks from the rear from any missile unit.

    The ideal counter to Chariot Archers is elite foot archers, of which there are five units: Archer Auxilia, Chosen Archer Warband, Cretans, Pharoah's Bowmen, and Forester Warband. Cav archers work too, but most cav archers don't have the range, attack, or defense of these foot archers, all of who get Long Range Missiles as an attribute. Elephants work too.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  14. #74
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Not sure what kind of range Cat Archers have
    The same as foot archers, chariot archers, and any other mounted archer...120. The only unit with more range (in fact the longest reaching ranged unit in the game) are Cretan Archers at 170. To see the range of any missile unit, find the export_descr_unit directory (it's in the data folder). The fourth number in the stat_primary line is the range.

    The ideal counter to Chariot Archers is elite foot archers...Cav archers work too, but most cav archers don't have the range, attack, or defense of these foot archers
    The ideal depends on what faction you play. The best regardless of faction are the Cataphract Archers. Their heavy armor allows them not only to go toe-to-toe with Chariot Archers, but to chase them across the battlefield (inflicting rear missile fire the whole time) and go over to melee to clean up stragglers. All cavalry archers from Scythian-style to Cataphract Archers have the same range as any foot archer, Cretans excepted.

    As any Greek faction, I employ scads of Cretans against the chariots. They do need a screen against enemy units, but they out-range everything on the battlefield. The Roman Archer Auxillia does well, but also need the frontal screen. Never made it to the Middle East as Germania or Gaul, but Chosen Archers and Foresters would decimate the chariots, I'm sure. In my experience, Ellies are too slow to give chase (and with the constant rallying of AI troops, chariots need to be destroyed outright, or decimated and "escorted" off the battlefield). Ellies should be busting up infantry formations anyway

    because then I have a heavily armoured, very mobile archer unit; one that can go toe to toe with chariot archers.
    I'm not sure if you saw the screenies I posted earlier, but this general (http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a...rmenia02-1.jpg) (http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a.../Armenia06.jpg)took on four successive Egyptian stacks; the first had 10 Chariot Archers, and the next three had 8 or 9 each. IIRC, it was 36 Chariot Archer units total. In addition to wiping out the CA's, Egypt lost over 4000 men. Losses were about 150 Cataphracts, of which about 1/3 were the Archers. That's about 1900 Chariot Archers lost for 50 Cataphract Archers (game settings at VH/H). Can any other missile unit match that? And btw, the battlefield was basically an ironing board...no terrain advantage/disadvantage for either side.

    Does anybody know if range improves with experience or weapons upgrades
    No and no. Only terrain can modify range.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 11-04-2016 at 03:17.
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  15. #75
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    The same as foot archers, chariot archers, and any other mounted archer...120. The only unit with more range (in fact the longest reaching ranged unit in the game) are Cretan Archers at 170. To see the range of any missile unit, find the export_descr_unit directory (it's in the data folder). The fourth number in the stat_primary line is the range.
    According to the export_descr_unit file, at least in the version I am playing of vanilla RTW (1.5), the five types of elite archers have range of 170, foot archers and most cav archers 120. Cataphract Archers, Scythian Noble Women, Scythian Noble Archers, and Persian Cav have a range of 170 as well. Chariot Archers and War/Armoured Elephants have range of 120.

    I will agree, the defense and mobility of the Cataphract Archers, combined with their long range, would give a decided advantage. But of course, the AI has no qualms about charging them onto my phalanx.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  16. #76
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    I stand corrected Those are the numbers. Militia-type archers would be using a short bow, the more elite archers, foot or mounted, would be using a compound long bow.

    I find use of the Scythian Noble Women rather redundant because the Scythian Nobles are available, the half-size unit, and limited melee value. Now the Head-Hunting Maidens with their AP axes, are fast and good for chasing down skirmishers and routers.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Completely agree. The Noble women are basically an half-sized unit of the Nobles. Never did field them very much.

    The Head-hunting Maidens do provide a nice light cav unit. And I believe their axes are armour-piercing, so they actually do a fair job against armoured units. Although, their low defense means limited melee is best; but that applies with any light cav. I had them do a rear charge on a unit of Cats that was already engaged, and they tore them up. One of the best jobs of taking care of Cats that I have seen cav do.

  18. #78
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch the Mace View Post
    Completely agree. The Noble women are basically an half-sized unit of the Nobles. Never did field them very much.

    The Head-hunting Maidens do provide a nice light cav unit. And I believe their axes are armour-piercing, so they actually do a fair job against armoured units. Although, their low defense means limited melee is best; but that applies with any light cav. I had them do a rear charge on a unit of Cats that was already engaged, and they tore them up. One of the best jobs of taking care of Cats that I have seen cav do.
    Never really tried a Scythian campaign. If it is same level building to build Noble Women vs Noble Archers, yeah, why would you want Noble Women (unless they cost enough less to make it a factor). It actually makes sense that the Cats got wasted by the HHM. HHM are light cav, so not much armour, and AP. Cats have a low enough attack so that they won't do too much against the HHM, and with not much armour, the maces of the Cats (I never see them use them anyway) won't do much either. Scythia looks like another faction that you would forget about their infantry. That said, at least they have a good foot archer unit who can stand in as decent infantry and good melee cav, so you would not have to totally abandon conventional playing if you did not want to.

    I ran a battle trying out Cataphract Camels vs Cappadocian Cav, and the Camels wasted the Cappadocians. The camels carry maces as well, Cappadocians carry swords for when they do go to the secondary. I am getting tempted to try Parthia out again.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  19. #79

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    The HHM and SNW come from a temple. I think you can get SNW faster than Noble Archers, but it wouldn't be by too much, and definitely not worth spending the money on. I am pretty sure they are more than half the cost of NA. I believe the HHM are in the first level temple and SNW the third level, but don't quote me on that.

  20. #80
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Haven't played RTW in a while (I did play RTW Alexander relatively recently), but I reminded of mercenary Cretan Archers. Those guys were useful with literally every faction. Loved them.
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  21. #81
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    I believe the HHM are in the first level temple and SNW the third level, but don't quote me on that.
    Head-Hunting Maidens become available at lvl2 (Sacred Grove of Api). The Noblewomen become available at lvl3 (Sacred Circle of Api). The Lvl1 Shrine of Api costs 400 denarii; the Grove 800 denarii; the Sacred Circle 1600 denarii. The Sacred Circle is not worth building unless you are looking for the +2 to population growth

    Scythia looks like another faction that you would forget about their infantry
    The Axmen are serviceable. Do their job well of tying up other infantry while the Scythian Noble lancers make their way to the flanks. Certainly much better than Eastern Infantry against other infantry. I do believe I used an all cavalry army as Scythia at times. Not as powerful as an Armenian cavalry army, but the tactics are the same. I found Thracians/Bastarnae to be an excellent alternative to Axmen. Love those guys! On a par with Germania's Bezerkers as shock troops.

    mercenary Cretan Archers. Those guys were useful with literally every faction.
    One of my top five favorite mercs (when playing a faction that doesn't have an elite foot archer). "Creeshan Arshers". Another of the classic unit calls....
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  22. #82
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    The two hit points of the Bastarnae are really nice. Don't know if they will compare to this.

    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 11-05-2016 at 02:58.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  23. #83
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Creeshan Arshers man, they always do the damage.

    To be fair, it was either Cretan Archers or Barbarian Mercenaries (spearmen/warband) as the most used mercenaries when you were playing as one of the Roman factions. Always good support from both.
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  24. #84
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    As a Roman faction, "Creeshan's" were definitely useful until Uncle Marius showed up and you got Archer Auxillia, but Warbands were nothing more than fodder to throw at the enemy while you flanked them. The only two line units I recruited were merc Hoplites and Thracian/Bastarnae

    @ Vincent

    You gotta love those 'Zerkers
    High Plains Drifter

  25. #85
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    As a Roman faction, "Creeshan's" were definitely useful until Uncle Marius showed up and you got Archer Auxillia, but Warbands were nothing more than fodder to throw at the enemy while you flanked them. The only two line units I recruited were merc Hoplites and Thracian/Bastarnae

    @ Vincent

    You gotta love those 'Zerkers
    I would hire those Barbarian Mercs simply to increase the size of an army to avoid a sally out when besieging a fortified city, increase size of my army before autoresolve, or to increase the size of a garrison in an underdeveloped town. Eventually you can disband them and they return to the population.

    I was surprised when the Berserkers beat first the War and then Armoured Ellies. I think if I tried it again I would run my Ellies through them. I tried it as the Berserkers, lost one, won two, the one I lost I saw the white routing banner on my Berserkers. Maybe just the captain was left, so he routed? Cataphracts beat Berserkers, but you certainly want to take advantage of the charge bonus, I won with only one charge, but lost more men. Also first time (with extra charge) I used Wedge, and lost my captain right off the bat. I still won. Yeah, Cataphracts are worth what you pay, provided you use them right. It can be expensive if you don't.

    I have been trying out different one-on-one scenarios, most of the time the results are as expected, but not always. Usually Berserkers or Screeching Women come into play. Hmm...Berserkers vs Screeching Women... But wait, I can't. They are both Germanic, and so it won't let me fight Germania vs Germania.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 11-05-2016 at 19:41.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  26. #86
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Despite them being used mostly as cannon fodder, the Barbarian Warbands can hold their own ground, particularly when you employ them in a defensive position and especially after they have some experience.
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    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  27. #87
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    And when expecting a charge from cavalry, I always put my infantry in guard mode, it seems to help them absorb the shock better. I take them off guard after the impact so they will move around to attack more of the enemy's men. And I don't actually use men as cannon fodder, I don't like squandering men, even from my not so good units. Units like Barb Mercs usually are on my flanks so I can engage engage their cav, my infantry deals with their infantry, and then my units who come free go after whoever the Barb Mercs are fighting, if they need help.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  28. #88

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Barb mercs are good for soaking up the main punch of the enemies attack while your other units can move to flank. If I don't have a phalanx, I love having the Mercs first in line when defending a bridge. With the warcry, they can hold out for quite a while; in the mean time, my missile troops are unloading into the mass of troops on the bridge.

    Scythia is a fun faction to play as. The battles do take a little longer early on as the HA run rings around the slow infantry that the enemy throws at you. Although, militia cav from Thrace seems to tear up my HA in melee combat. I am sure there is some reason for that, but if I remember right, the stats are similar.

  29. #89
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: most powerful faction

    Although, militia cav from Thrace seems to tear up my HA in melee combat.
    If I'm reading the export_decr_unit file correctly, the secondary attack for both units is knife (7 for the Militia Cav, 3 for the Horse Archers), the defensive value is 0 armor/4 defensive skill/4 shield (total 8) for the Militia Cav; 3 armor/2 defensive skill/0 shield (5 total) for the Horse Archers. So it's 7 attk/8 def Militia Cav vs. 3 attk/5 def Horse Archers. On paper, the Militia Cavalry should win melee combat

    I would hire those Barbarian Mercs simply to increase the size of an army to avoid a sally out when besieging a fortified city, increase size of my army before autoresolve, or to increase the size of a garrison in an underdeveloped town. Eventually you can disband them and they return to the population.
    Look guys, my comments about Barbarian Infantry was meant for a Roman faction (with the outside chance that you might recruit them while playing the Julii). As a barbarian faction I recruit them all the time for all the mentioned reasons. I can't see a need, as the Brutii, for using Warbands when there are far superior mercs available (like the +2 Hoplites available in the Laconia Province, or Cretan Archers, or Illyrians). As the Scipii, hoplites and militia cav available on Sicily and in N. Africa, and eventually ellies...
    High Plains Drifter

  30. #90

    Default Re: most powerful faction

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    If I'm reading the export_decr_unit file correctly, the secondary attack for both units is knife (7 for the Militia Cav, 3 for the Horse Archers), the defensive value is 0 armor/4 defensive skill/4 shield (total 8) for the Militia Cav; 3 armor/2 defensive skill/0 shield (5 total) for the Horse Archers. So it's 7 attk/8 def Militia Cav vs. 3 attk/5 def Horse Archers. On paper, the Militia Cavalry should win melee combat
    That would make sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Look guys, my comments about Barbarian Infantry was meant for a Roman faction (with the outside chance that you might recruit them while playing the Julii). As a barbarian faction I recruit them all the time for all the mentioned reasons. I can't see a need, as the Brutii, for using Warbands when there are far superior mercs available (like the +2 Hoplites available in the Laconia Province, or Cretan Archers, or Illyrians). As the Scipii, hoplites and militia cav available on Sicily and in N. Africa, and eventually ellies...[/QUOTE
    I would agree. The only time I hire them is if I need extra numbers to soak up the hordes that the enemy is throwing my way. I try to avoid hiring them if I can. Merc Hoplites on the other hand, I do hire just about whenever I can. Especially when facing Egypt in a settlement. I love playing sticky-sticky with the chariots and watching their wheels roll past.

    I do like Illyrian Mercs as well. They provide a nice light inf that doesn't need constant supervision. And if they get some upgrades from armour or chevrons, they can hold their own against even medium inf. Although you don't want to let cav get a hold of them.

    I also like the Spanish Mercs, although I do not recruit them as Rome. That would be a bit redundant. But they do provide a solid inf unit that can hold the line if they need to.

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